Some Pit Education

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tommyt

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I have to ask then, why have dogs that you know from the start will have to live their lives away from a family 'pack'? What's the point of owning a dog if it can't be part of your family?

What joy does somone get from having a yard full of chained dogs? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just don't understand.
A dog can be on a chain and be a part of the family. It depends on the owner. Sure, there are some creeps that keep dogs on a chain and never pay them any mind. However, there are many that go out there with the dogs for hours at a time. Every person I know that keeps their dogs on chains spends hours of time with each dog per week. They aren't neglected. Also, many owners rotate dogs. One dog comes in to live with the family for a few days and then put back out. Next, another one is brought in.

Also, there are many things a dog can be used for than a mere pet. Dogs need a purpose or a role within the pack. There is nothing better to fill this role than hunting, in my opinion. Just because a dog is not a housedog, it does not mean that it is unhappy.
 
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Miakoda

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OK, another APBT person here. From what I've read, many of you are getting ticked because we are not providing y'all with adequate answers. But I have yet to see actual questions listed. Rather what I've read have been some inaccurate statements that y'all would like us to say "you are correct" to and of course we are not going to do that. List the questions, and we will do our best to answer them as proficiently as possible. Also, when a question is answered & the replying poster is basically called a liar because you seem to know better, then why even bother asking if you don't want to hear & accept the truthful answer? We have no reason to lie, so why should we?

Second, Gamedog came on here to defend his pet whose picture was stolen off a site & put onto this one only for the reasons of ridiculing it & causing a hysteria that we as APBT owners like to starve, abuse, & neglect our dogs. He shouldn't have even had to do this as the person who started the original locked thread is nothing more than a troll. If he doesn't want to partake in indepth discussions, he shouldn't have to or be criticized when he chooses not too. It wasn't his idea to come to this forum for chit-chat anyways.

As far as conditioning goes on all the dogs, ALL of them were & are in great shape. To the untrained & HSUS perverted mind, a well conditioned dog looks the same as a starved/neglected dog. However, the major difference is that when a dog is indeed starved, the body begins to feed upon the muscle therefore breaking it done & causing severe atrophy which results in a very sunken in & skeletal appearance. A conditioned dog still maintains it's muscle mass & some ribs are slightly visible due to the low body fat percentage.(Machobuck was in top conditioning in the original pic & due to the extreme training regimen to get a dog there--long walks, jogs, runs, flirtpole & springpole activities, etc & a very strict yet proper dietary program--he was not kept in that kind of shape year round). The same goes for human athletes. I was once a Division 1 (collegiate) female soccer player. In my prime I weighed approx. 103lbs & had 11% body fat. My ribs showed, my collarbone stuck out, & many of my bones in the breast area below the collarbone were visible. However, my body was in peak physical condition thereby allowing me to play my sport to the best of my abilities. I prided myself on my quadraceps, hamstrings, & calf muscles (as leg muscle is very important in the sport of soccer). Yet some people still told me I looked anorexic & tried to get me to get "help". To the coach, trainer & team physcian I was in tip-top shape. Now, did I stay like that year round? Not entirely, but it was cyclical & I pushed my body to the extreme every fall & spring.

As a vet tech, I'm all too familiar with the widespread state of obesity most pet owners keep their animals in. As a clinic with 60,000 active clients, it would be accurate to say that the majority of cats & dogs we see are overweight & many are plain obese. Many owners think that a dog should have "meat on it's bones" & look 'healthy". But think about this: if you're dog has an abundant layer of fat under the skin (that would prevent one from filling the ribs), imagine all the fat surrounding the internal organs? A thick layer of fat surrounding the heart muscle can be detrimental to a dog's health. A dog's skeletal structure is NOT desgined to accomodate an overweight pooch, therefore an overweight dog will begin to have many musculoskeletal problems especially with the joints (the hips are the most affected part). Besides cardiac problems, Type II diabetes is also having a huge spike as overweight animals are more prone to developing the disease (& a dog doesn't have to be obese, just overweight to put it at risk). On the other hand, a fit dog should have a distinct tuck behind the abdomen when looking at it from above. If the dog sides run in a straight line, that dog is overweight. A dog's ribs should be easily felt (meaning one should not have to push in to feel the ribs) & it's perfectly fine if some are visible when the dog is in motion. When lucking at it from the side, it should also have a good tuck up behind the abdomen. If all you see is a straight line, the dog is overweight. A good rule of thumb for the lumbar vertebrae (spine) is that 2-3 visible is perfectly fine if the dog is in good condition with a good amount of muscle mass & healthy. If all the vertebrae are visible, the cranial bones are visible, & there is no muscle tone whatsoever, then it's obvious the dog is underweight/malnourished. But again, that dog has a totally different look & structure than the one in supreme physical condition.
 
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The chaining thing with multiple pits would not work here, to cold. Situations like that work with sled dogs however, do work here.
 

Miakoda

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As for chaining up dogs, it is no better or no worse than keeping dogs in kennels. It's up to the individual owner as to whether or not he/she is doing so in a responsible manner. Of course we've all heard of dogs of all breeds kept outside on chains with no means of shelter, neglected, & basically left to rot so to speak. These are the only images the HSUS, PETA, & other extremists animal rights organizations want you to see. They don't want people to see the setups where a dog has a great house, proper food/water set-up, & the space to walk around & lie down where he chooses. They don't want you to know that these dogs are taken off their chains for quality inside time with the family & given daily exercise in the form of walks/jogs, fetch, etc.

On the other hand, I personally know of a situation in which 2 dogs are being kept in kennels indoors for about 12 hrs during the day, let out for an hour maybe two, then put back in for their nightime sleep. Yet during that hour of freedom, they are not walked, played with, or even acknowledged. However, since they are living inside, most assume that they are being cared for better than those dogs who are housed outside. And this is far far from the truth. And don't be fooled into thinking cases like this are the minority. Many people who own dogs work long hours & others like to have pets for nothing more than the latest fashion accessory. What these dogs have in common is that they will both spend lots of time locked in a kennel in which he has room to stand up & turn around in...nothing more. But just like everything else, there are people who use kennels correctly & give their dogs their full attention when the dog is uncrated.

And most importantly, both of these containment methods are better than just letting your dog run loose. If people haven't realized that we have a major problem with "nicey nicey" dogs running loose (or even cats being allowed outdoors to roam which btw is my biggest pet peeve) & getting into mischief & biting people, then they need to wake up.

I used to keep all my dogs inside in kennels during the day when I was at work. But over time, I realized that many of them preferred to be outside, but as an owner of dogs that are dog aggressive (& even those that aren't are NEVER left alone unsupervised) I couldn't just turn them all loose in my back yard. Besides the D.A. issues, dogs just love to dig under fences, climb fences, & in my case, I've got an Olde English Bulldogge that literally puts his head through the wooden fence slats. So for my dogs benefit & to allow them to all be outside & enjoy the sunny days, they are on chain set-ups. Now how is this cruel? I'm preventing "accidents", I'm not allowing my dogs to run the streets, & I'm keeping my neighbors from coming home to doggies that don't belong to them romping in their backyard.

EDIT: I also want to add that some of us, if not most of us, learned the hard way about those store-bought cable setups. In my case, 2 of my APBTs & our OEB snapped them like they were made of licorice. They are NOT hardy & will not hold up to constant pulling/resistance. Otherwise, I don't know one person that wouldn't gladly use them. But alas, they are nothing more than money wasters.
 

Miakoda

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The chaining thing with multiple pits would not work here, to cold. Situations like that work with sled dogs however, do work here.

Hm. My best friend lives in Anchorage. I've been there on 4 separate occasions & one of the biggest sights I've seen is the chaining of sled dogs...often 30-100 dogs. So why isn't this considered cruelty? Why is the chaining of dogs only harshly discussed in the cases of APBT owners?
 

2nd2none

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I have to ask then, why have dogs that you know from the start will have to live their lives away from a family 'pack'? What's the point of owning a dog if it can't be part of your family?

What joy does somone get from having a yard full of chained dogs? I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just don't understand.

no problem.
I guess "joy" has a different meaning to every person... :)
some are "house pets", and yes, they have to be seperated, even in the house. There are some exceptions, tho, personally, I would rather error on the side of caution.

I consider all the dogs I've ever owned to be "part of my family", whether they were indoor or outdoor dogs. In choosing to own this breed,I knew I would probably never be able to walk two together again, but that was ok. I KNEW this prior to owning and accepted this "stipulation" as part of the "terms" of raising an American Pit Bull Terrier.

Trust two together? Not on your life!

Admire a yard full of magnificent, amazing animals, wisely contained on proper chain setups?...could be considered joyful, to some, I imagine...:cool:
 
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Second, Gamedog came on here to defend his pet whose picture was stolen off a site & put onto this one only for the reasons of ridiculing it & causing a hysteria that we as APBT owners like to starve, abuse, & neglect our dogs. He shouldn't have even had to do this as the person who started the original locked thread is nothing more than a troll. If he doesn't want to partake in indepth discussions, he shouldn't have to or be criticized when he chooses not too. It wasn't his idea to come to this forum for chit-chat anyways.
Im sorry if I missed his post about his pic being stolen and asking it to be removed from the locked thread, if was there the pic no longer would be there.

He never defended his pic being "stolen". He dicided to chide and mock, thats chitchat. What you and others are doing actually posting very valuable information about your breeds. And your post very valuable health info on pets in general, without actual posts with questions. You volunteered that info.

Did the person who started the locked thread start anything on a any forum you are a member of?
 
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Hm. My best friend lives in Anchorage. I've been there on 4 separate occasions & one of the biggest sights I've seen is the chaining of sled dogs...often 30-100 dogs. So why isn't this considered cruelty? Why is the chaining of dogs only harshly discussed in the cases of APBT owners?

That is exactly why I usualy dont get involved in a chaining discussion. There are cases up here of sled dog neglect and they are followed up on and taken care of to the letter of Alaskan law. We have also had our cases of animal hording. Ild have to check the laws but 100 dogs chained does sound a bit excesive unless there are exceptions for a more commercial type operation.

There is a standard of operation at a base on Adak where none of the dogs are allowed inside ever. The dog can warm up inside and litteraly freeze to the snow and ice, a soldier allowing a dog inside can be court martialed for it.
 

Miakoda

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That is exactly why I usualy dont get involved in a chaining discussion. There are cases up here of sled dog neglect and they are followed up on and taken care of to the letter of Alaskan law. We have also had our cases of animal hording. Ild have to check the laws but 100 dogs chained does sound a bit excesive unless there are exceptions for a more commercial type operation.

There is a standard of operation at a base on Adak where none of the dogs are allowed inside ever. The dog can warm up inside and litteraly freeze to the snow and ice, a soldier allowing a dog inside can be court martialed for it.
The yards I saw with the large number of dogs ran sledding tours & whatnot. The smaller ones I saw just seemed to be private homes/residences.

On a side note, I LOVED dog sledding along the Iditarod!

 
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The yards I saw with the large number of dogs ran sledding tours & whatnot. The smaller ones I saw just seemed to be private homes/residences.

On a side note, I LOVED dog sledding along the Iditarod!
Thats good, there are those that find the Iditarod and other sleddog races as cruel as dogfighting.
 

silverpawz

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Hm. My best friend lives in Anchorage. I've been there on 4 separate occasions & one of the biggest sights I've seen is the chaining of sled dogs...often 30-100 dogs. So why isn't this considered cruelty? Why is the chaining of dogs only harshly discussed in the cases of APBT owners?
Personally, I don't like to hear of any dogs living their lives on chains. Is it possible that a dog on a chain can have a good life? I guess anything is possible. But it's much easier to forget to walk the dog, or skip one playtime or put off bringing the dog in just this once...if he's outside. Out of sight, out of mind.

Maybe some people really do spend hours outside with their dogs, walk them everyday and bring them in the house for special quality time. Religously.
If you're one of those people, then good job. But that is not the norm.

Again, I still don't understand the mentality of wanting to own more then one dog of a breed that is naturally so dog aggressive. Why set yourself up to have to keep your dogs outside? Is one dog that you can keep in the house not enough?

Admire a yard full of magnificent, amazing animals, wisely contained on proper chain setups?...could be considered joyful, to some, I imagine...
A few paintings of magnificant animals wisly placed on the walls could have the same effect if all someone wants is to do admire them. I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep chained dogs.
 

Miakoda

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Personally, I don't like to hear of any dogs living their lives on chains. Is it possible that a dog on a chain can have a good life? I guess anything is possible. But it's much easier to forget to walk the dog, or skip one playtime or put off bringing the dog in just this once...if he's outside. Out of sight, out of mind.

Maybe some people really do spend hours outside with their dogs, walk them everyday and bring them in the house for special quality time. Religously.
If you're one of those people, then good job. But that is not the norm.

Again, I still don't understand the mentality of wanting to own more then one dog of a breed that is naturally so dog aggressive. Why set yourself up to have to keep your dogs outside? Is one dog that you can keep in the house not enough?
Just like everything else, I know of cases of inside pets that are completely ignored as well. Yes they live inside, yes they are fed & watered & let out to potty, but they get no attention other than that. They are left to entertain themselves with crappy toys & are often scolded for whining and chewing up things. Just because a single dog lives inside doesn't mean it is given attention & exercise religiously either. There are always two sides to every story & it is absolutely not possible to know which side is the majority & which is the minority. Unfortunately, healthy & well exercised dogs kept on chains & their humans don't make the 10 o'clock news. They are not pictured on the animal right's websites. So it's very possible that for every dog that lives neglected on a chain, that 10 or 20 live a fullfilled & beloved life. Who's to say? One has to decide whether or not they want to believe the HSUS & PETA lies & misinformation or take a step back, look around, & think for themselves.

As far as dog aggression goes, there are dogs in EVERY breed that are dog aggressive. It just so happens that terrier breeds & bulldog breeds tend to have a higher rate due to their being selectively bred for hunting purposes. DA isn't limited to "pit bulls". I "love" to tell the story of the day a woman brought in her 3 Yorkies to the clinic--2 were alive but covered in bites & 1 was dead. Seems they got into a spat & it quickly turned into 2 vs. 1. We also see many a cases of 2 labs getting into it, or 2 Shih-Tzu's. ANYTIME 2 or more dogs are left together unattended, their is an increase in the chance for at least one to get hurt...sometimes seriously. Dogs will be dogs & dogs will have spats & fights with each other.

As for me having more than one dog, it's my choice. I've got APBTs that we hog hunt with & weightpull with, & I've got 2 rescued "pit bulls" & several other breeds of dogs that have found a home with us. Just as some people love to spend all their time & money clothes shopping & buying a pair of shoes to match every outfit, I chose & still choose to spend all my time & money on my dogs. They are my passion & my life. I don't give a rat's ass about shopping, or going out to clubs & bars, or anything like that. Give me a weekend of hunting or a dog show & I'm happy. And now that I've got a 4 mo. old son, I can only hope to instill in him the same values.
 
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I might believe that the 5/16" chain is in the picture with the dog. Its hard for me to tell on the dog because Im not that familiar with the dogs size. It just doesnt seem to me that the chain on the left was used because the chain in the picture with the dog doesnt look rusty and the link dia to gap looks more in line with the chain on the right. Thanks for going to the effort to get the shot though
Lol, after I've told you three times, you still are basically calling me a liar... here are all 6 of our mostly outside dogs' chains. If you still have a problem, that's fine, but do not continue to question the fact that I have already stated multiple times.





 
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continued...







And as for the rust, that is a 16.5' chain and a dog does not live nor stay on that run very often (unless they are being heaviliy exercised at the time). Notice in every one of the above pictures, there is rock dust under them, and it rained heavily last night (as it does often) so chains not in use tend to rust, but a chain nearly constantly being moved across the rock dust is like putting a peice of sand paper to it.
 

2nd2none

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A few paintings of magnificant animals wisly placed on the walls could have the same effect if all someone wants is to do admire them. I don't think that's a good enough reason to keep chained dogs.

they are magnificent and amazing because of the countless, gratifying hours you spent with them to obtain that achievement.
I hope a painting then, can do all that for you then.
Personally, I prefer hands on. experience.:)
 

silverpawz

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One has to decide whether or not they want to believe the HSUS & PETA lies & misinformation or take a step back, look around, & think for themselves.
My opinions have nothing to do with the HSUS or PETA.

Just because a single dog lives inside doesn't mean it is given attention & exercise religiously either.
This is certainly true. If someone is going to neglect their dog the fact that their inside won't make a difference.

However, as I said before it's much easier for the care of the dog to slip and slide a little if he lives outside. It's harder to ignore a dog that's scratching at the door to go out for a walk, or one that's dropping a ball into your lap for playtime, than it is to ignore one who's outside and away from you.
 
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And as for the rust, that is a 16.5' chain and a dog does not live nor stay on that run very often (unless they are being heaviliy exercised at the time). Notice in every one of the above pictures, there is rock dust under them, and it rained heavily last night (as it does often) so chains not in use tend to rust, but a chain nearly constantly being moved across the rock dust is like putting a peice of sand paper to it.
Just to change the view of the chain, here is a picture of her on the other side of the same 16.5' chain that she was on the same day the first picture was taken:



And here is her on her normal temporary run (notice the bullsnap rather than 2 o-rings):



Just because something "looks" to be the case, doesn't make it so.
 
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Miakoda

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than it is to ignore one who's outside and away from you.
I would love for anyone to try & ignore 10 APBTs all barking & howling on their chains (or tie-outs as I call them) for their daily exercise & attention. And only a profoundly deaf person could not hear the baying that goes on at dinner time. :cool:
 
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