Some Pit Education
- Thread starter Renee750il
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I don't think anyone has said that a dogman is a dog fighter. I know folks who do other, legal things with their dogs and still consider themselves dogmen/women. I don't know if its because they're serious about the breed and scrupulous in the care of their animals, or what. Maybe someone more comfortable with the term could explain better.
Also, in the interest
of keeping information within this document as accurate as possible,
reputable dogmen was contacted for feedback regarding this FAQ.
These people have a national reputation for having bred and campaigned
some famous dogs in the past and we could not have presented 'inside'
information without his/her help. Furthermore, the authors wish to
acknowledge and thank both Carl Semencic and Richard Stratton whose
books were drawn on heavily in the formation of this document.
Here is one mans concept of a dogman....they are like horsemen....they are the experts when it comes to the APBT. All emotionalism aside, any modern APBT fancier would be privledged to be mentored by a dogman or a dogwoman...hope this helps
Well this thread has been very educational to read...it is nice to know so may folks are passionate about dogs in general..hats off to all. Here is one of my favorite sources I found when starting to research the APBT...wanted to share.
http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqfaq.html#q1
http://www.nyx.net/~mbur/apbtfaqfaq.html#q1
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I'm trying to keep this post humble here, as I am friends with people on both sides of this topic (in person and on other forums), I've been trying to keep quiet because of that but I just can't seem to do that anymore.
I just keep reading this thread and my mind continues to spin. Both sides seem to be taking things too far and that just keeps getting us nowhere with the topic. I have been involved in pit bull rescue, am a member over at game-dog (though I don't post there often because I have nothing to say regarding bloodlines or anything, I'm just there for the nutrition), and am a member in many other pit bull related boards.
Some of the stuff, like culling, chaining, and the definition of a working dog, gets brought up on those boards as well. Not everyone agrees with culling. Not everyone agrees with chaining. Not everyone has a working dog, nor can they decide on a black and white definition of one.
Personally I think that if you have a dog from working lines that does not automatically make it a working dog unless you actually use it. My Greyhound USED to be a working dog, back when he raced. He's now retired and sleeps on the couch. Just because I walk him and play tug that doesn't mean he's still an active working dog. He's a retired working dog. My pit/Akita mix IS a working dog. He is currently training in competative obedience, weight pull, agility, and personal protection. He is treated very differently from my retired hound, but I do not have him out on a chain because I do not agree with chaining (behavioral reasons) as a permanent way of keeping a dog. But I will not flame anyone for chaining their dog provided that it gets plenty of off chain time for training or playing or whatever.
I do think that some people are sidestepping some questions, perhaps simply to be cute and stir things up, or perhaps because they really have something to hide. Or maybe they just don't realize they're doing it. But it's definitely not helping the thread to continue to do that. Please if you're asked a straight question give a straight answer, even if you've given it earlier in this looooooooong thread. (And a big THANK YOU to those of you who have been doing that, it's very helpful.)
I'm here for the dogs. I'm a pit bull fan, pit bull mix owner, and I fight BSL. I usually have a pit bull foster and almost every single member of my club has an APBT for their working dog, so I'm exposed to them on a daily basis. I know the fighting history of the breed, but not to the points of being able to name any big fighters, because I don't feel it's necessary to celebrate the history, simply to know it so you can better know your dog and be prepared for any DA in the future.
Oh yeah, and to get back to the original purpose of this thread, I think that Lil' Bit is beautiful and I wish that my Mike had just a quarter of that muscle on him. My Wally, the retired racing Greyhound, as I said is a couch potato, but he's still managed to keep on most of his muscle. Genetics. Purely genetics. You can see some of his muscle in this pic, unfortunately he was also pretty overweight in this one. He's back down to normal weight. Normal weight for a Greyhound means that you can see at least 4 ribs and you can see 4+ vertebrae. Someone WAY earlier said something about how you should not see any of the dog's backbone. Well many APBTs have a roached back, like a Greyhound, so even if you have them super fat you will still be able to see it. The difference is wether the body is sunken in around the vertebrae (ie: no muscle) or if it is well toned.
And a sidenote: it's easier to see muscle on a solid colored dog, which is why Lil Bit's muscles show so greatly. If she was brindle it would be slightly more difficult to see the muscle definition, though it still would be there.
I just keep reading this thread and my mind continues to spin. Both sides seem to be taking things too far and that just keeps getting us nowhere with the topic. I have been involved in pit bull rescue, am a member over at game-dog (though I don't post there often because I have nothing to say regarding bloodlines or anything, I'm just there for the nutrition), and am a member in many other pit bull related boards.
Some of the stuff, like culling, chaining, and the definition of a working dog, gets brought up on those boards as well. Not everyone agrees with culling. Not everyone agrees with chaining. Not everyone has a working dog, nor can they decide on a black and white definition of one.
Personally I think that if you have a dog from working lines that does not automatically make it a working dog unless you actually use it. My Greyhound USED to be a working dog, back when he raced. He's now retired and sleeps on the couch. Just because I walk him and play tug that doesn't mean he's still an active working dog. He's a retired working dog. My pit/Akita mix IS a working dog. He is currently training in competative obedience, weight pull, agility, and personal protection. He is treated very differently from my retired hound, but I do not have him out on a chain because I do not agree with chaining (behavioral reasons) as a permanent way of keeping a dog. But I will not flame anyone for chaining their dog provided that it gets plenty of off chain time for training or playing or whatever.
I do think that some people are sidestepping some questions, perhaps simply to be cute and stir things up, or perhaps because they really have something to hide. Or maybe they just don't realize they're doing it. But it's definitely not helping the thread to continue to do that. Please if you're asked a straight question give a straight answer, even if you've given it earlier in this looooooooong thread. (And a big THANK YOU to those of you who have been doing that, it's very helpful.)
I'm here for the dogs. I'm a pit bull fan, pit bull mix owner, and I fight BSL. I usually have a pit bull foster and almost every single member of my club has an APBT for their working dog, so I'm exposed to them on a daily basis. I know the fighting history of the breed, but not to the points of being able to name any big fighters, because I don't feel it's necessary to celebrate the history, simply to know it so you can better know your dog and be prepared for any DA in the future.
Oh yeah, and to get back to the original purpose of this thread, I think that Lil' Bit is beautiful and I wish that my Mike had just a quarter of that muscle on him. My Wally, the retired racing Greyhound, as I said is a couch potato, but he's still managed to keep on most of his muscle. Genetics. Purely genetics. You can see some of his muscle in this pic, unfortunately he was also pretty overweight in this one. He's back down to normal weight. Normal weight for a Greyhound means that you can see at least 4 ribs and you can see 4+ vertebrae. Someone WAY earlier said something about how you should not see any of the dog's backbone. Well many APBTs have a roached back, like a Greyhound, so even if you have them super fat you will still be able to see it. The difference is wether the body is sunken in around the vertebrae (ie: no muscle) or if it is well toned.
And a sidenote: it's easier to see muscle on a solid colored dog, which is why Lil Bit's muscles show so greatly. If she was brindle it would be slightly more difficult to see the muscle definition, though it still would be there.
I agree.(lovely dogs btw)
I cant believe some of you sunk to a new low... i think one of my neighborhood kids talk smack like that. You dont need to personally attack somebody to make a point. We are suppose to learn about the breed. If what they do doesnt agree with you what made you think you will change their mind by trying to argue? You can give your POV but that cant change their mind. This men and women has been around the breed for yearsss and they have their own way of doing things. I dont agree 100% to what they are doing but that doesnt mean Im going to argue with them, I might say my POV but thats about it.
Why cant we agree to disagree? why cant we just take it in what is being said? share your POV but keep it civil.
:spam:
I cant believe some of you sunk to a new low... i think one of my neighborhood kids talk smack like that. You dont need to personally attack somebody to make a point. We are suppose to learn about the breed. If what they do doesnt agree with you what made you think you will change their mind by trying to argue? You can give your POV but that cant change their mind. This men and women has been around the breed for yearsss and they have their own way of doing things. I dont agree 100% to what they are doing but that doesnt mean Im going to argue with them, I might say my POV but thats about it.
Why cant we agree to disagree? why cant we just take it in what is being said? share your POV but keep it civil.
:spam:
Wow. So much bickering over nothing.
We, as an APBT community have not used the term "dogmen" in reference to dogfighters. The members of this board has. You have made incorrect assumptions.
Also, there are some people that believe their dogs are working dogs simply because they are from working lines or because they are exercised. I am not one of them. Some people just use the term "working dogs" as a generic term for dogs that are from working lines. I am sure that I have been guilty of this also. I don't see why it is such a big deal.
You can own a greyhound and tell someone that it is a racing dog as a general statement concerning the breed when it has never seen a track. I doubt that it will cause as much of a stir as this whole "working dog" topic.
I do not see why something as silly as this has caused 15-20 posts of bickering.
We, as an APBT community have not used the term "dogmen" in reference to dogfighters. The members of this board has. You have made incorrect assumptions.
Also, there are some people that believe their dogs are working dogs simply because they are from working lines or because they are exercised. I am not one of them. Some people just use the term "working dogs" as a generic term for dogs that are from working lines. I am sure that I have been guilty of this also. I don't see why it is such a big deal.
You can own a greyhound and tell someone that it is a racing dog as a general statement concerning the breed when it has never seen a track. I doubt that it will cause as much of a stir as this whole "working dog" topic.
I do not see why something as silly as this has caused 15-20 posts of bickering.
Good post! Some have wondered why some of us are so passionate about our breed. Even with insinuations that this passion may suggest a deeper darker side which we are trying to hide and protect. This is exactly why the breed is in danger: we are not believed or deemed credible. In any other hot topic where two sides disagree you will find just about 50/50 tie on public viewpoint. Unfortunately for the APBT, an overwhelming majority of the general public and politicians still believe the breed is better off dead, or they simply just don't care. Other dog enthusiasts discredit us, and even make mockeries of our love for these dogs. All I ask is for you who question our shock and dismay and even boiling irritation at times to read this
http://dogpolitics.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/denver_38_dead_.html
and try to understand where we are coming from. This is no isolated incident, and yes, family APBT pets are dying because we are dehumanized as dogfighters and abusers by so many. It's easier for AC to take a dog from a child's crying arms when all you know about "pit bulls" is they are a demon breed created by demon people. It's even easier to go in and seize 8 working dogs from a yard when you have been conditioned to "know for a fact" that "pit bulls on chains" = "fighting dogs".
Sorry for losing my cool last night, as I understand it does reflect upon my credibility somewhat. As you all have passions you protect and get emotional over, so do we. Thanks in advance for reading the article.
http://dogpolitics.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/denver_38_dead_.html
and try to understand where we are coming from. This is no isolated incident, and yes, family APBT pets are dying because we are dehumanized as dogfighters and abusers by so many. It's easier for AC to take a dog from a child's crying arms when all you know about "pit bulls" is they are a demon breed created by demon people. It's even easier to go in and seize 8 working dogs from a yard when you have been conditioned to "know for a fact" that "pit bulls on chains" = "fighting dogs".
Sorry for losing my cool last night, as I understand it does reflect upon my credibility somewhat. As you all have passions you protect and get emotional over, so do we. Thanks in advance for reading the article.
No problem! 
Boemy, I think it's mainly the idea that we should all show eachother a little respect.
Boemy, I think it's mainly the idea that we should all show eachother a little respect.
Thank you, those of you Chazhound members who called Delisay's post #1233 to me and the rest of you who have remarked upon the complete rudeness of it.
Delisay, stop being so damned condescending. That is NOT a request.
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