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Gwinnywillow
- Thread starter Kenzie
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Define lumbering! The Chows I have seem look like they are lumbering to me compared to a Doberman or other breeds required to have reach and drive. The semantics are mine, not the breed standards. Of course one does not often come across a Chow that weighs in a 80 pounds and I think 15 pounds of that was coat.
I have owned Chows.....one of the pet quality type with the open face and light boned, and the other with the massive bone, and wrinkled head. They lumber as far as what I see. Now of course, the birdie boned ones, with the close fronts won't have a hint of roll or "lumbering". There are lots of things lots of dogs aren't supposed to do according to the standard, as you know.........that they do in actual fact do! Now please also keep in mind I am picturing the Chows of 25 years ago that had leg bone you could barely get your hand around, that were massive dogs. Not oversized......just massive. Perhaps that is why they appreared to move as they appeared to move!
Every breed has a standard, what I say, or what my opinion is of any particular breed is simply my opinon based on what I personally have observed. Nobody should take any one person's opinion. We all have our own viewpoints and biases. That is why the breed standard is so important.
As I mentioned in one post about the Ibizian Hound, the thing was the epitome of what would be horrid in most every other breed. STRAIGHT front, hollowed out chest, shallow brisket, straight rear, YELLOW EYES!!!! Turns out that particular dog was the ideal Ibizian...in fact the #1 at that point in time!!! It takes a while for our "eye" to become accustomed to looking at radically different breeds.
If anyone thinks I am off the wall, then go to the breed standard. And some may finally come to be of the opinion that some of my off-the-wall is intended, so people will get piqued enough to dig into the info for themselves. (HINT HINT---I have in my possession a book of breed standards, right here on the desk in front of my keyboard. I KNOW what the standards say. But sometimes outlandish gets folks working to prove just how wrong a person is! And in the process, they learn stuff).
But I still say Chows darned well look to me like they are lumbering!!!!!! Of course, a few times around the show ring, and likely they ARE!
I have owned Chows.....one of the pet quality type with the open face and light boned, and the other with the massive bone, and wrinkled head. They lumber as far as what I see. Now of course, the birdie boned ones, with the close fronts won't have a hint of roll or "lumbering". There are lots of things lots of dogs aren't supposed to do according to the standard, as you know.........that they do in actual fact do! Now please also keep in mind I am picturing the Chows of 25 years ago that had leg bone you could barely get your hand around, that were massive dogs. Not oversized......just massive. Perhaps that is why they appreared to move as they appeared to move!
Every breed has a standard, what I say, or what my opinion is of any particular breed is simply my opinon based on what I personally have observed. Nobody should take any one person's opinion. We all have our own viewpoints and biases. That is why the breed standard is so important.
As I mentioned in one post about the Ibizian Hound, the thing was the epitome of what would be horrid in most every other breed. STRAIGHT front, hollowed out chest, shallow brisket, straight rear, YELLOW EYES!!!! Turns out that particular dog was the ideal Ibizian...in fact the #1 at that point in time!!! It takes a while for our "eye" to become accustomed to looking at radically different breeds.
If anyone thinks I am off the wall, then go to the breed standard. And some may finally come to be of the opinion that some of my off-the-wall is intended, so people will get piqued enough to dig into the info for themselves. (HINT HINT---I have in my possession a book of breed standards, right here on the desk in front of my keyboard. I KNOW what the standards say. But sometimes outlandish gets folks working to prove just how wrong a person is! And in the process, they learn stuff).
But I still say Chows darned well look to me like they are lumbering!!!!!! Of course, a few times around the show ring, and likely they ARE!
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Well, now, motha, shows what you don't know! And how you assume way too much, In point of fact, THE BUTTS APPROACHED ME ABOUT BUYING MY BITCH!....so how ya like them apples???????? The top Whippet people IN THE WORLD wanted my dog. And in point of fact, I GAVE her to them on a Co-ownership. Could have made a fortune, but money was not the object.
As I said, don't know the source or reason for your angst, but I would suggest you consider giving things a rest whilst you are ahead, rofl.
As I said, don't know the source or reason for your angst, but I would suggest you consider giving things a rest whilst you are ahead, rofl.
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Oh, and NO I did not breed or cobreed anything with Debbie. It was with her folks. And Debbie's husband killed my bitch.....so how about that???? I really don't have the time or inclination to go into my life's story. It has no bearing on anything anyway. Whatever I say---check out the breed standard!! That is what it is there for.
Oh, and have you had any luck finding geniune live GSDs that look anything like that illustrated standard yet??? You keep circumventing the question!
Oh, and have you had any luck finding geniune live GSDs that look anything like that illustrated standard yet??? You keep circumventing the question!
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motherofmany said:
Oh man, I sure hope you can substantiate that claim Libel claims have come from far less than that.
As for GSD's that look like the standard, I direct you to the breeders list at the GSD club site. Several typey dogs linked to there.
Libel claims have come from far less than that.As for GSD's that look like the standard, I direct you to the breeders list at the GSD club site. Several typey dogs linked to there.
Gee, only SEVERAL typey????? How sad! You just keep reinforcing what I have been saying!
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Some very nice looking Shepherds........... thanks to a friend for finding this site
http://www.kraftwerkk9.com/index.php
http://www.kraftwerkk9.com/index.php
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Gwinnywillow said: "Ok, I will be good. I have no problem admitting to I know nothing about Shepherds, I don't want to know nothing about Shepherds, and I personally have no use for the breed.........and I will say nothing further about the breed. "
So it all breaks down to this. She admits she knows nothing about the breed, and yet keeps trying to lecture people even though she straight-out said she wouldn't say anything more. Isn't that called lying?
She has used several erroneous descriptions of the chow (straight front causing rolling gait, straight shoulder, and now "lumbering" - all of which are completely incorrect according to both the breed standard and anyone who has even a dusting of knowledge about the breed) and yet she insists she knows what she's talking about.
When someone disagrees with her, she turns it around into an insult about the person or their dogs (as in accusing someone of not having a purebred shepherd just because it didn't match her statements of the breed, or suggesting that if my chows don't "roll" when they trot that they must not have substance or proper bone).
Oh, and of course, let's NOT forget the "I've got a cold" excuse!
She's been proven wrong time and time again. I'm relatively certain that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence who is reading this thread realizes fully that this person is FAR from being an expert . . *L*
Okay, off to spend time with my non-lumbering, non-rolling chows and my shepherds who can stand square - and, amazingly enough, they're purebred dogs!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
So it all breaks down to this. She admits she knows nothing about the breed, and yet keeps trying to lecture people even though she straight-out said she wouldn't say anything more. Isn't that called lying?
She has used several erroneous descriptions of the chow (straight front causing rolling gait, straight shoulder, and now "lumbering" - all of which are completely incorrect according to both the breed standard and anyone who has even a dusting of knowledge about the breed) and yet she insists she knows what she's talking about.
When someone disagrees with her, she turns it around into an insult about the person or their dogs (as in accusing someone of not having a purebred shepherd just because it didn't match her statements of the breed, or suggesting that if my chows don't "roll" when they trot that they must not have substance or proper bone).
Oh, and of course, let's NOT forget the "I've got a cold" excuse!
She's been proven wrong time and time again. I'm relatively certain that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence who is reading this thread realizes fully that this person is FAR from being an expert . . *L*
Okay, off to spend time with my non-lumbering, non-rolling chows and my shepherds who can stand square - and, amazingly enough, they're purebred dogs!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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IliamnasQuest said:
Gwinnywillow said: "Ok, I will be good. I have no problem admitting to I know nothing about Shepherds, I don't want to know nothing about Shepherds, and I personally have no use for the breed.........and I will say nothing further about the breed. "
So it all breaks down to this. She admits she knows nothing about the breed, and yet keeps trying to lecture people even though she straight-out said she wouldn't say anything more. Isn't that called lying?
She has used several erroneous descriptions of the chow (straight front causing rolling gait, straight shoulder, and now "lumbering" - all of which are completely incorrect according to both the breed standard and anyone who has even a dusting of knowledge about the breed) and yet she insists she knows what she's talking about.
When someone disagrees with her, she turns it around into an insult about the person or their dogs (as in accusing someone of not having a purebred shepherd just because it didn't match her statements of the breed, or suggesting that if my chows don't "roll" when they trot that they must not have substance or proper bone).
Oh, and of course, let's NOT forget the "I've got a cold" excuse!
She's been proven wrong time and time again. I'm relatively certain that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence who is reading this thread realizes fully that this person is FAR from being an expert . . *L*
Okay, off to spend time with my non-lumbering, non-rolling chows and my shepherds who can stand square - and, amazingly enough, they're purebred dogs!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
So it all breaks down to this. She admits she knows nothing about the breed, and yet keeps trying to lecture people even though she straight-out said she wouldn't say anything more. Isn't that called lying?
She has used several erroneous descriptions of the chow (straight front causing rolling gait, straight shoulder, and now "lumbering" - all of which are completely incorrect according to both the breed standard and anyone who has even a dusting of knowledge about the breed) and yet she insists she knows what she's talking about.
When someone disagrees with her, she turns it around into an insult about the person or their dogs (as in accusing someone of not having a purebred shepherd just because it didn't match her statements of the breed, or suggesting that if my chows don't "roll" when they trot that they must not have substance or proper bone).
Oh, and of course, let's NOT forget the "I've got a cold" excuse!
She's been proven wrong time and time again. I'm relatively certain that anyone with even a modicum of intelligence who is reading this thread realizes fully that this person is FAR from being an expert . . *L*
Okay, off to spend time with my non-lumbering, non-rolling chows and my shepherds who can stand square - and, amazingly enough, they're purebred dogs!
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
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Can we all read??? This is from www.thegermanshepherddog.com.....
This is the exact same thing I hae been saying folks! As do all the people who know the breed say!
German Shepherd Dog Types
Copyright 2006 -- Moc Klinkam; all rights reserved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following German Shepherd Breed Type Comparisons demonstrate various German Shepherd pedigree types, coat colors, and coat types. On this page you'll find representations of various types within the German Shepherd Dog breed that will assist the reader in further understanding how genetic bloodline inheritance and provenance influence the overall type, characteristics, form and associated function of the German Shepherd Dog breed.
While the German Shepherd Breed Standard has for over a century specified the required characteristics, traits, appearance, drives, and working utility of the German Shepherd Dog breed, there has evolved in the 20th Century and particularly in the last several decades some significant derivations of that original breed standard.
These derivations and deviations from the original German breed standard for the German Shepherd Dog are the catalyst for all manner of discussion and some heated argument. Today, one can find distinctive differences between the different German Shepherd types across international boundaries and even within the specialties represented in a single country. For example, in the United States of America, there are significant differences between German Shepherd Dog types, characteristics, and form and function when comparing the American ("AKC") German Shepherd types and the German Shepherd Dogs of West German, East German and Eastern European pedigree and lineage. There are also significant differences in the physical appearance ("phenotype") and genetic makeup ("genotype") when comparing the German/European working lines German Shepherd Dog and the show lines representatives.
The primary catalyst for the significant differences between American AKC types and the German Shepherd Dog representative of the German breed standard is that historically the German and Eastern European German Shepherd Dog bloodlines have been strongly premised on a comprehensive system of form and function, with breedworthiness evaluated and tested through a variety of schemes including hip (and increasingly elbow) evaluation, working titles (ie, Schutzhund, IPO, KNPV) and the German SV Breed Survey. The subtypes (ie, the AKC bloodlines) have not benefitted from the European influence and over time there has developed an unfortunate emphasis on appearance, much to the denegration of functionality, utility, and overall health and hardiness.
In fact, there are now such significant differences in the United States between the AKC Specialty type and the European bloodlines that there has arisen in recent years a call to demarcate the two types into distinctive breeds -- the "American Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog." Further muddling the situation are the boutique breeders who choose to specifically breed and market dogs based only on visual characteristics ("phenotype") that are specifically excluded from the original German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard, such as the blue, liver and white colors, and even the long-haired German Shepherd Dog. It is one thing to accept the fact that these off-standard colors and coat types can and do occur in even the most diligent breeding program, and to acknowledge that a specific coat color or type does not automatically make a dog deficient any more than it automatically makes a dog more "valuable." It is quite another situation when a breeder elects to abrogate the critical importance of comprehensive soundness of temperament, character and functionality and instead focuses solely on selecting for and reproducing a particular coat color or physical trait.
There are now even breeders reproducing some genetic mutations such as dwarf (referred to in the commercial breeders' marketing literature as "miniature") or spotted coat "Panda Shepherds." Being so far removed from the original breed standard, and based solely on oddity of appearance due to genetic malformation, these dogs are not to be considered German Shepherd Dogs. Also included on this page are photos of the "Shiloh Shepherd" which is commonly misconstrued as a "type" of German Shepherd Dog, when in fact it (and the "King Shepherd") is a mixed breed and an example of a boutique breed genetically manipulated for commercial sale to a niche market.
The seminal issue, and the most troubling aspect of any departure from the established German Shepherd Dog breed standard, is if any breeding is considered or accomplished based solely on a marketable appearance. The abandonment of the critical components of form and function in any German Shepherd Dog breeding program is an inexcusable failure of attentiveness to the original breed standard, and a diminishment of the breed as it was originally conceived and should continue to be a dog of comprehensive form, function, and utility.
When any dog of any breed is produced based solely on physical appearance, that breed is on the slippery slope of diminishment and destruction. In the United States we have seen that happen in a stunningly short period of time with far too many breeds of dogs. This is due in large part to a dismal lack of attention to breed standardization and diligent breed preservation by the American Kennel Club (AKC) which has long been in the business of heavily marketing and selling paper that gives the perception of validating any breeding of any male to any female without regard for the consequences to the resulting progeny, and to the breed, and to the hapless puppy buyers who are misled into believing that an "AKC pedigree" means much of anything at all.
This is the exact same thing I hae been saying folks! As do all the people who know the breed say!
German Shepherd Dog Types
Copyright 2006 -- Moc Klinkam; all rights reserved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The following German Shepherd Breed Type Comparisons demonstrate various German Shepherd pedigree types, coat colors, and coat types. On this page you'll find representations of various types within the German Shepherd Dog breed that will assist the reader in further understanding how genetic bloodline inheritance and provenance influence the overall type, characteristics, form and associated function of the German Shepherd Dog breed.
While the German Shepherd Breed Standard has for over a century specified the required characteristics, traits, appearance, drives, and working utility of the German Shepherd Dog breed, there has evolved in the 20th Century and particularly in the last several decades some significant derivations of that original breed standard.
These derivations and deviations from the original German breed standard for the German Shepherd Dog are the catalyst for all manner of discussion and some heated argument. Today, one can find distinctive differences between the different German Shepherd types across international boundaries and even within the specialties represented in a single country. For example, in the United States of America, there are significant differences between German Shepherd Dog types, characteristics, and form and function when comparing the American ("AKC") German Shepherd types and the German Shepherd Dogs of West German, East German and Eastern European pedigree and lineage. There are also significant differences in the physical appearance ("phenotype") and genetic makeup ("genotype") when comparing the German/European working lines German Shepherd Dog and the show lines representatives.
The primary catalyst for the significant differences between American AKC types and the German Shepherd Dog representative of the German breed standard is that historically the German and Eastern European German Shepherd Dog bloodlines have been strongly premised on a comprehensive system of form and function, with breedworthiness evaluated and tested through a variety of schemes including hip (and increasingly elbow) evaluation, working titles (ie, Schutzhund, IPO, KNPV) and the German SV Breed Survey. The subtypes (ie, the AKC bloodlines) have not benefitted from the European influence and over time there has developed an unfortunate emphasis on appearance, much to the denegration of functionality, utility, and overall health and hardiness.
In fact, there are now such significant differences in the United States between the AKC Specialty type and the European bloodlines that there has arisen in recent years a call to demarcate the two types into distinctive breeds -- the "American Shepherd" and the "German Shepherd Dog." Further muddling the situation are the boutique breeders who choose to specifically breed and market dogs based only on visual characteristics ("phenotype") that are specifically excluded from the original German Shepherd Dog Breed Standard, such as the blue, liver and white colors, and even the long-haired German Shepherd Dog. It is one thing to accept the fact that these off-standard colors and coat types can and do occur in even the most diligent breeding program, and to acknowledge that a specific coat color or type does not automatically make a dog deficient any more than it automatically makes a dog more "valuable." It is quite another situation when a breeder elects to abrogate the critical importance of comprehensive soundness of temperament, character and functionality and instead focuses solely on selecting for and reproducing a particular coat color or physical trait.
There are now even breeders reproducing some genetic mutations such as dwarf (referred to in the commercial breeders' marketing literature as "miniature") or spotted coat "Panda Shepherds." Being so far removed from the original breed standard, and based solely on oddity of appearance due to genetic malformation, these dogs are not to be considered German Shepherd Dogs. Also included on this page are photos of the "Shiloh Shepherd" which is commonly misconstrued as a "type" of German Shepherd Dog, when in fact it (and the "King Shepherd") is a mixed breed and an example of a boutique breed genetically manipulated for commercial sale to a niche market.
The seminal issue, and the most troubling aspect of any departure from the established German Shepherd Dog breed standard, is if any breeding is considered or accomplished based solely on a marketable appearance. The abandonment of the critical components of form and function in any German Shepherd Dog breeding program is an inexcusable failure of attentiveness to the original breed standard, and a diminishment of the breed as it was originally conceived and should continue to be a dog of comprehensive form, function, and utility.
When any dog of any breed is produced based solely on physical appearance, that breed is on the slippery slope of diminishment and destruction. In the United States we have seen that happen in a stunningly short period of time with far too many breeds of dogs. This is due in large part to a dismal lack of attention to breed standardization and diligent breed preservation by the American Kennel Club (AKC) which has long been in the business of heavily marketing and selling paper that gives the perception of validating any breeding of any male to any female without regard for the consequences to the resulting progeny, and to the breed, and to the hapless puppy buyers who are misled into believing that an "AKC pedigree" means much of anything at all.
The problem is, that isn't all you said. Up until recently in this thread, you never bothered making any distictions in lines. You said that German Shepherds are crippled, cannot stand properly unless they have their leg propped under them and that a GSD that can stand square probably isn't purebred. Each point being completely inaccurate. You may have since modified your argument to lend yourself some credibility, but you put out, and proceeded to argue as fact, untrue statements.
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I have only been speaking of show Shepherds, because that is all I have ever been around. The article I just posted says the exact same thing, in fact saying that the breed in this country is so bad, so unable to function as the breed was intended to that the Europeans are ready to disassociate themselves from the American lines and designate them as a separate breed. Why? Because the dogs are so bad in the rear that they cannot function.
Opposing comments by those with non-show lines proves nothing. Their dogs are the exception, not the rule. I have watched agility some over the last few years and made note of the absence of the presence of Shepherds. Perhaps because they are too long bodied and weak in the rear to do weave poles, among other things?
Anyway, this is not a Shepherd forum, thankfully. I have and still say that GSDs in this country are pathetic. Again----show me a live American line that represents the breed standard? I couldn't find any!
And as for Chows....how many here have closely observed the movement of the Chow in the show ring? I have seen a few hundred over the years. And studied it no less. So in spite of what the standard says Chows do appear to roll, and some to "lumber". Of course if the conformation under all that hair is as bad as that of many other breeds, it can be understood. Close fronts, close rears, hocks that rub together when the dog moves. Etc.
I have and will continue to express my feelings on these breeds based on my perspective. One or two pet dogs do not contradict what hundreds have seen in hundreds of dogs! They are the exception, not the rule.
True, I exaggerated by saying all. I should have qualified it with "except for one or two dogs". The American Shepherd is an anathema in its country of origin. What more can be said?
Opposing comments by those with non-show lines proves nothing. Their dogs are the exception, not the rule. I have watched agility some over the last few years and made note of the absence of the presence of Shepherds. Perhaps because they are too long bodied and weak in the rear to do weave poles, among other things?
Anyway, this is not a Shepherd forum, thankfully. I have and still say that GSDs in this country are pathetic. Again----show me a live American line that represents the breed standard? I couldn't find any!
And as for Chows....how many here have closely observed the movement of the Chow in the show ring? I have seen a few hundred over the years. And studied it no less. So in spite of what the standard says Chows do appear to roll, and some to "lumber". Of course if the conformation under all that hair is as bad as that of many other breeds, it can be understood. Close fronts, close rears, hocks that rub together when the dog moves. Etc.
I have and will continue to express my feelings on these breeds based on my perspective. One or two pet dogs do not contradict what hundreds have seen in hundreds of dogs! They are the exception, not the rule.
True, I exaggerated by saying all. I should have qualified it with "except for one or two dogs". The American Shepherd is an anathema in its country of origin. What more can be said?