Gwinnywillow

[fillyone]

Is he supposed to be purebred?????????

Is he supposed to be purebred?

Yes he's purebred, but he's not American lines

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinny, you may see dogs who have enough loose skin to give that rolling effect, but that is not desireable. A Rottweiler should be a clean dry dog with close fitting skin, and a rock hard topline that does not move.

Yup, but many Rotties, like many humans, have a bit more loose skin than perhaps they (we) should have. It is hard to find Rots or Dobes with that broomstick topline. Although I can't say much......my "Topline" has a few sags in it, lol.

 

[Zoom]

Settle, settle...everyone was doing so well...Filly, I know jack-all about GSD confirmation, but Dante does look nice...he doesn't have the exaggerated longness to his back that I keep seeing. And it's not just stance...these dogs that I see are just looong, but somehow don't have the rest of the necessary structure to support that.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

It is NOT a statement of fact. It IS a broad sweeping statement.
GSDs are not going to collapse if they don't stand with a leg under their center.

What is your breed of choice? I have no doubt I could make broad sweeping statements about it as well using some lines or some examples as my 'statement of fact'.

Well, first before you make any statements, sweeping or vacuuming or whatever, it helps if you know what the breed is supposed to look like. Dante sure does not look like any German Seiger I have seen pictures of. German lines is not responsible for his looks.

The funny thing is that when I first stated about Shepherds needing the leg under them to hold them up, I was being facetious. But not without a lot of truth. Most Shepherds hips are so bad they cannot stand foresquare.

 

[fillyone]

Well, first before you make any statements, sweeping or vacuuming or whatever, it helps if you know what the breed is supposed to look like. Dante sure does not look like any German Seiger I have seen pictures of. German lines is not responsible for his looks.

The funny thing is that when I first stated about Shepherds needing the leg under them to hold them up, I was being facetious. But not without a lot of truth. Most Shepherds hips are so bad they cannot stand foresquare.

Dante is not a Seiger dog, never thought he was and never said he was. I was simply responding to your post that GSDs will collapse if they stand square.
Now you throw in another

Most Shepherds hips are so bad they cannot stand foresquare

. Have you looked at the OFA website lately?
I assume not.
Of the more popular breeds that are more dysplastic:
ST. BERNARD
BASSET HOUND
FRENCH BULLDOG
NORFOLK TERRIER
NEWFOUNDLAND
BLOODHOUND
AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
ROTTWEILER
GOLDEN RETRIEVER
CHOW CHOW
Just some.

Stop making broad statements.
If you don't like GSDs fine, but don't sweep the entire breed of dog into your little anti-GSD nutshell.

By the way, Dante's hips prelimed at 14 months as good.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Settle, settle...everyone was doing so well...Filly, I know jack-all about GSD confirmation, but Dante does look nice...he doesn't have the exaggerated longness to his back that I keep seeing. And it's not just stance...these dogs that I see are just looong, but somehow don't have the rest of the necessary structure to support that.

According to the breed standard Shepherds are to be longer than tall....the ratio is 10 to 8 1/2.

Now, you measure them like every other breed---from the point of the breast bone to the butt. Long in loin is not what is supposed to give a Shepherd its length.

I cannot find anything in the standard that says they should stand with one leg under the body????

Point is to learn--that is why we are hear, and the best way to learn is to hammer things out! There are lots of breeds I don't know diddley about! Only because I have never had any acquaintanceship with them.

 

[filarotten]

My rottie, Roxie does not have loose skin and does not have a rolling walk. I also have some friends with two Chows, they do not roll when they walk. However, my Fila does, he has what is known as a camel walk. The legs on each side walk in unison causing a rolling or camel walk effect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the assumption these are the only dogs that do this.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

My rottie, Roxie does not have loose skin and does not have a rolling walk. I also have some friends with two Chows, they do not roll when they walk. However, my Fila does, he has what is known as a camel walk. The legs on each side walk in unison causing a rolling or camel walk effect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I am under the assumption these are the only dogs that do this.

What you are describing is called "pacing". If a dog does it while gaiting at a trot it is supposed to be indicative of something messed up in the structure of the dog....back too short or some such. I had a Dobe bitch that would pace when I started to gait her, and I would have to nudge her with my knee to throw her off balance so she would trot. She was, come to think of it, very short backed???

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Dante is not a Seiger dog, never thought he was and never said he was. I was simply responding to your post that GSDs will collapse if they stand square.
Now you throw in another . Have you looked at the OFA website lately?
I assume not.
Of the more popular breeds that are more dysplastic:
ST. BERNARD
BASSET HOUND
FRENCH BULLDOG
NORFOLK TERRIER
NEWFOUNDLAND
BLOODHOUND
AMERICAN STAFFORDSHIRE TERRIER
ROTTWEILER
GOLDEN RETRIEVER
CHOW CHOW
Just some.

Stop making broad statements.
If you don't like GSDs fine, but don't sweep the entire breed of dog into your little anti-GSD nutshell.

By the way, Dante's hips prelimed at 14 months as good.

Glad he xrayed at least good. For breeding I personally would not breed anything less than excellent.

Now, could it possibly be that there are less Shepherds showing as having bad hips because the OWNERS DON'T SEND THE XRAYS INTO OFA IF THEY ARE BAD???????? Huh? You suppose????

I am glad that you have a dog you love, and I am sure that he will have nothing but the best of care, and be spoiled rotten. That is the whole point of having a dog. However as far as discussing the finer points of the breed that is not possible. There is much you have not yet been exposed to so that you could learn about it. I have had years of talking to breeders/exhibitors and learning from them the good and the bad/sad facts concerning this breed.and know the breed.

Since you do not want to "hear it", I shall simply admit defeat. Not about the breed, but about trying to get you to do research into the breed and learn about it.

 

[fillyone]

You never did tell me your breed of choice.
I did plenty of research on the breed and chose to not purchase an American line GSD.
In the past year, I have spoken with a number of American line breeders and there are some very good things happening with the American line. Not only are the dogs conformation put they're showing their stuff in the herding corrals, the tracking fields and the obedience rings. Just like GSDs should be. Working dogs. Not just a 'pretty' face that has a pretty trot. Sadly that is what got rewarded in the American ring and that led to a different breed than 40 years ago. I'm hopeful things may be on the turn around in the American line.
What you do in your posts however, is lump all GSDs together. You're also painting every dog with your broad strokes.
Have you seen a Czech working line GSD? How about a West German working line GSD?

I'm tired of arguing with you, but again, don't paint all the GSDs with the same brush. And perhaps, you're the one that has somethings to learn. Why not spend sometime at a good Schutzhund club?

 

[DanL]

Gwinny, I hope that your illness is the reason you are posting so much BS about the GSD. Any picture you see of a GSD champion or Seiger dog is standing in the stack. That doesn't mean they stand that way all of the time nor does it mean that they HAVE to stand that way or they'll fall down. That's ridiculous. The GSD is an agile, strong, athletic dog that has no problems standing on it's own. I guess a dog that can't stand by itself because it's back legs are so weak and crippled would be a poor candidate for police, protection, herding, search and rescue, and all the other jobs that the GSD excels at? You are making generalizations about the GSD (and some of the other breeds you are so expertly commenting on as well it seems) which are apparently based on conjecture and not reality.

Here is my dog, just hanging around. Doesn't look like he's having a problem standing to me.

Example of a weak, crippled dog.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Glad he xrayed at least good. For breeding I personally would not breed anything less than excellent.

Why would you not use a dog rated good or fair, GW?

These are normal ratings.

Personally, I'd rather have a dog graded fair in the hips who had all fair littermates than an excellent who has dysplastic littermates.

I think OFA does us a real disservice by not making hips PASS OR FAIL just like elbows.

The BVA number scoring system is also very good.

Hips do not seem to be a big issue in Rottweilers these days. Elbows, however, are a different story.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

One more blurb about OFA and films.

IMO until OFA standardizes some things, and becomes a COMPLETELY OPEN database, it's less of a tool than it could be for breeders.

There should be a course to be taken and passed by all vets who wish to be OFA certified vets, and any dog taken in for OFA films should be REQUIRED to submit films. Films should not be allowed to be taken beforehand for submission to OFA, and then owners decline to send them in.

The abnormal dogs are as important if not moreso to the data base than the normal ones.

I, for one, REQUIRE ALL of my puppies to be filmed for hips and elbows at or about 24 mos of age, and ALL results disclosed and submitted to OFA, passing, failing, or not.

It's not about my ego, or how many dogs I've produced that pass. It's about what is good for my breed, and what is good for my breed is true and correct information about health testing.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

One more blurb about OFA and films.

IMO until OFA standardizes some things, and becomes a COMPLETELY OPEN database, it's less of a tool than it could be for breeders.

There should be a course to be taken and passed by all vets who wish to be OFA certified vets, and any dog taken in for OFA films should be REQUIRED to submit films. Films should not be allowed to be taken beforehand for submission to OFA, and then owners decline to send them in.

The abnormal dogs are as important if not moreso to the data base than the normal ones.

I, for one, REQUIRE ALL of my puppies to be filmed for hips and elbows at or about 24 mos of age, and ALL results disclosed and submitted to OFA, passing, failing, or not.

It's not about my ego, or how many dogs I've produced that pass. It's about what is good for my breed, and what is good for my breed is true and correct information about health testing.

Have you looked into PennHip? The info goes that puppies PennHipped 8 weeks of old xray exactly as predicted by the P.H.

And in actually, OFA is only as good as the integrity of the people using it. I know for a fact a guy that used a "ringer" for xrays to cover a dog that was dysplastic. After all, a red Chow is a red Chow. Dogs should be DNA registered with AKC, and any heath testing should require DNA proof of identity.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinny, I hope that your illness is the reason you are posting so much BS about the GSD. Any picture you see of a GSD champion or Seiger dog is standing in the stack. That doesn't mean they stand that way all of the time nor does it mean that they HAVE to stand that way or they'll fall down. That's ridiculous. The GSD is an agile, strong, athletic dog that has no problems standing on it's own. I guess a dog that can't stand by itself because it's back legs are so weak and crippled would be a poor candidate for police, protection, herding, search and rescue, and all the other jobs that the GSD excels at? You are making generalizations about the GSD (and some of the other breeds you are so expertly commenting on as well it seems) which are apparently based on conjecture and not reality.

Here is my dog, just hanging around. Doesn't look like he's having a problem standing to me.

Example of a weak, crippled dog.

Keep letting your dog jump around etc, and let me know how well he is walking and getting around in 4 or maybe 5 years. A pet owners experience with 1 dog as compared with the experience of breeders/exhibitors over a 40 year period is just a little different. Have you ever wondered why most police departments use German import dogs???

And your dog does not look anything like the breed standard requires. Look at that picture that I posted the link for of Hatter---the all time ideal of the breed. He was everything a Shepherd should be. And barely able to move by age 8.

And should we go into the fact that the majority of Shepherds are flakes? I am looking at Shepherds from the perspective of breeding/showing. A pet owner has no way of having had contact with hundreds of the dogs over many decades. Nor the chance for long term observation.

We are talking about apples and oranges. So I will take my oranges and make some juice with them, and all the Shepherd experts here can check back in in about 10 years and give updates on their dogs. That seems fair.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Why would you not use a dog rated good or fair, GW?

These are normal ratings.

Personally, I'd rather have a dog graded fair in the hips who had all fair littermates than an excellent who has dysplastic littermates.

I think OFA does us a real disservice by not making hips PASS OR FAIL just like elbows.

The BVA number scoring system is also very good.

Hips do not seem to be a big issue in Rottweilers these days. Elbows, however, are a different story.

Because to me, good or fair means that the dog is dysplastic. Just not as badly as it could be. I realize that is just my personal hang up. Of course I have more hang ups than the Museum of Modern Art............heheh.

 

[RD]

And your dog does not look anything like the breed standard requires. Look at that picture that I posted the link for of Hatter---the all time ideal of the breed. He was everything a Shepherd should be. And barely able to move by age 8.

Then he quite obviously was not everything a shepherd should be. Things like moving are rather important to people who work their dogs.

I've learned quite a bit from this thread, thanks!

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Because to me, good or fair means that the dog is dysplastic. Just not as badly as it could be. I realize that is just my personal hang up. Of course I have more hang ups than the Museum of Modern Art............heheh.

That sort of rigid narrow selection would likely be the doom of any breeding program. You would bottleneck very quickly I would think, along with losing type, temperament etc if you narrowed your criteria to only allow dogs rated Excellent to be bred.

For me, when considering animals to be used for breeding, I must look at the entire animal. I must balance the Excellent and good in the specimen against the average and needs improvement. I must balance this both in the individual specimen, and in what is behind this animal.

I feel if I get stuck on any one particular thing, and/or narrow my selection criteria too rigidly, I will not be able to end up accomplishing my long term goals.

JMO, and once again, I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion, and seeing other viewpoints.

 

[DanL]

Keep letting your dog jump around etc, and let me know how well he is walking and getting around in 4 or maybe 5 years. A pet owners experience with 1 dog as compared with the experience of breeders/exhibitors over a 40 year period is just a little different. Have you ever wondered why most police departments use German import dogs???

And your dog does not look anything like the breed standard requires. Look at that picture that I posted the link for of Hatter---the all time ideal of the breed. He was everything a Shepherd should be. And barely able to move by age 8.

And should we go into the fact that the majority of Shepherds are flakes? I am looking at Shepherds from the perspective of breeding/showing. A pet owner has no way of having had contact with hundreds of the dogs over many decades. Nor the chance for long term observation.

We are talking about apples and oranges. So I will take my oranges and make some juice with them, and all the Shepherd experts here can check back in in about 10 years and give updates on their dogs. That seems fair.

Somehow I knew that your reply would state that my dog doesn't look like what the breed standard suggests. For your information, he is an imported German line dog, not an American show line. I am aware of why police agencies use German dogs- they are better than the American dogs by far. The desireable traits for a working GSD have been all but bred out of the American lines. They do not have the drive, temprament, or physical ability that the imports have, because the standard of breeding in Europe requires the dogs to be able to work, not just trot around the ring looking pretty.

When you talk about the GSD being flakey, that is purely the result of breeding for a single purpose and not taking into consideration all of the things the GSD was originally bred for. Any breed of dog that is continually being bred for color, angulation, and trotting ability while ignoring other important things such as temprament is going to have problems.

You keep referring to these champion dogs that couldn't walk by the time they were 8, and that is the result of not holding the dog to the original German standards, which require that temprament testing, obedience, protection, tracking, physical stamina, and hip and health certifications be attained prior to breeding. Few American GSDs could pass those tests including most of the ones that you are basing your opinion on.

I bow before your experience. I'm impressed that as a doberman person, you know so much about the GSD and all these other breeds you comment on. I suppose that you also have had 40 years of 1st hand experience with the GSD, so much experience that you can make comments like you have been making? The only thing of value that you have shown me is that you do not understand the GSD and appear to have a very biased attitude towards the breed.

 

[BlackDog]

Anything that I have posted anywhere around here today that sounds like it does not make sense--it doesn't make sense! It seems I am coming down with a cold on top of the cold I was hoping to get rid of, and my brain is extremely sluggish at the moment. Can't even blame it on cold medicine. Haven't taken any YET. But I will be "Toot sweet"!.

Well don't give that cold to me!! Haha. Wouldn't that give a whole new spin on the term "internet virus"? lol!