Gwinnywillow

[Kenzie]

She is gorgeous! But I wonder if there is any such thing any more as a dog "well let down in hock".......which to clear up the mystery means that the bone running from the hock to the stifle is almost horizontal to the ground before starting the upturn. (Kinda like the GSD is, but they are overdone and crippled! That is why they have to stand with one leg under them, or else they would collapse. Hind end ain't strong enough to support the weight of the body length!)

This was extremely helpful and informative. I'm wondering if you'd be kind enough to take the time to educate us further on other standard terminology such as rear angulation etc. I'm taking a long, hard look at Kenzie with an objective eye, especially since I'm showing her as a Special now. Even though it's for the love and fun, I'd still want to be properly educated on what exactly I'm looking for and looking at! It's one thing reading about the standard and completely different accutally putting it into practice when examining by bitch. Could you possible start a thread with reference to standard terms and what to exactly look at/for such as you did above? Thanks in advance for your time and trouble!

 

[Gwinnywillow]

This was extremely helpful and informative. I'm wondering if you'd be kind enough to take the time to educate us further on other standard terminology such as rear angulation etc. I'm taking a long, hard look at Kenzie with an objective eye, especially since I'm showing her as a Special now. Even though it's for the love and fun, I'd still want to be properly educated on what exactly I'm looking for and looking at! It's one thing reading about the standard and completely different accutally putting it into practice when examining by bitch. Could you possible start a thread with reference to standard terms and what to exactly look at/for such as you did above? Thanks in advance for your time and trouble!

Well, I could give it a try, although there are many others who can fill in info about the terminology used with dogs. Rear angulation is actually a part of the "let down on hock". What does help is knowing what I call the "points of reference". For instance, the length of the leg bone from hip to stifle (stifle is where the back leg bends halfway between the hip and the ground, should ideally be the same as the length from stifle to hock. Hock is the "ankle" of the rear leg....last bending part of the hind leg above the foot.

With most dogs of most breeds, the length of the front leg should be equal from highest point of the shoulders on the back to the elbow as from the elbow to the ground. And the most important thing is for those breeds that are supposed to have layback of shoulder.....many breeds give the exact angles that the shoulder blade should make with the ground, etc. To me, the easiest way to tell is simply drop an imaginary line down from the highest point of the withers to the ground, and see how far forward of that line the back of the elbow is. That will show how straight in the front the dog is.

The one thing that gave me fits at one time was the fronts on Sight Hounds. They have a different look than working breeds, but it should not have been as different as I was seeing. Finally I asked a breeder if Sight Hounds were supposed to have a hollowed out upside down "V" between the front legs (looking at them from head on). She said "ABSOLUTELY NOT!!" Turns out most of the dogs I was seeing were very straight in shoulder, and lacking in depth of chest.

There are so many little details that really can only be learned by studying the breed standard, learning the terminology, and finding a good looking dog of that breed, and go over it with the standard in front of you in one hand.

There are many types of ears for example, and different breeds are required to have a specific ear type......Rose ear, like the Bull Dog has, Prick ear like Shepherds, semi-prick like Collies, I think big old ears that hang down are "drop ears"....like hounds have. Then there is the "button ear" like most terriers are supposed to have where the ear breaks exactly in the middle and folds down on itself. Then there is the "gay" ear-----an ear that is supposed to do ANYTHING but stand up in the air that insists on standing up in the air,

There is "set on of tail".....how far up on the spine the tail should be set. Tail set can and does affect the entire topline of a dog. A dog of a breed that is supposed to have a high tailset and doesn't will look like it is hunching its hind end under its butt. Sight hounds have a lower tail set than say a Doberman, where the tail is supposed to be "a continuation of the spine", and should be set at least at about 11 o'clock, or 1 o'clock (depending on what side you are looking at the dog, )

It would be so much easier if folks could just come up with questions, lol. There is just too much detail to even be able to remember to mention!

One thing that gave me fits at first was developing my eye to know what good Terrier movement is. Terriers generally move along with front and rear legs remaining under their bodies.....kinda like a tick, tick, tick, tick tempo. Most other breeds call for "reach and drive" meaning the dog should reach out from under its body in front and grab the ground and pull it underneath it. The rear legs should extend as far out past the butt as possible.

Then there are those breeds that are supposed to have straight fronts like Chows that are supposed to have a "rolling gait".

Most of the breed standards explain what they mean by what they say, and give hints as to the terminology. "Brisket" is the bottom of the dogs chest, between the front legs. "Pastern" is the front ankle of the dog. One term that gave me fits was "occiput". Most people had no clue how to go about describing it. Turns out it is simply the highest point of the skull between the dogs ears. The "BUMP" up there.

Oh my......I am going back to bed for a day or two, my brain is exhausted any other questions, ask away.

 

[fillyone]

Originally Posted by Gwinnywillow
(Kinda like the GSD is, but they are overdone and crippled! That is why they have to stand with one leg under them, or else they would collapse. Hind end ain't strong enough to support the weight of the body length!)

*Taking a deep breath before typing*
I do not show GSDs but am a GSD lover. Your statement that GSDs stand that way so they don't collapse is a bunch of bull. I am the first to admit that some of the American line GSDs are being bred to look over angulated since the gait was being rewarded in the American ring. But to say that GSDs can't stand with all 4 feet even or they'd collapse, please.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Actually, chows are supposed to be straight in STIFLE and have a stilted gait.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Actually, chows are supposed to be straight in STIFLE and have a stilted gait.

Straight shouldered also, and stilted equates with rolling. Rolling results from rocking side to side, which Chows do. Once in a very blue moon you come across a Chow with some reach and drive....but they are not supposed to have too much at either end. True they do not roll like the Bulldogs do, since they are not built like Sherman tanks, .

Angulation has to be balanced or it results in some really weird movement......like Dobes that are straight in front and actually have a little angulation in the rear. They are the ones that hump up in the middle when they first start to move or kick themselves in the front feet with their back feet. Of course, one person's rolling and another's stilted both end up looking pretty much the same depending on the breed involved. And too, the movement of the loose skin and long coat most definitely appear to add up to a kind of rolling motion. As I said, it is most definitely not the roll of the Bulldog! But then, nothing else moves like a Bulldog, lol.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Anything that I have posted anywhere around here today that sounds like it does not make sense--it doesn't make sense! It seems I am coming down with a cold on top of the cold I was hoping to get rid of, and my brain is extremely sluggish at the moment. Can't even blame it on cold medicine. Haven't taken any YET. But I will be "Toot sweet"!.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I hate to argue, Gwinny, but a chow chow is not supposed to roll.

Here is what their standard says about gait.....

Gait
Proper movement is the crucial test of proper conformation and soundness. It must be sound, straight moving, agile, brief, quick, and powerful, never lumbering. The rear gait shorter and stilted because of the straighter rear assembly. It is from the side that the unique stilted action is most easily assessed. The rear leg moves up and forward from the hip in a straight, stilted pendulum-like line with a slight bounce in the rump, the legs extend neither far forward nor far backward. The hind foot has a strong thrust which transfers power to the body in an almost straight line due to the minimal rear leg angulation. To transmit this power efficiently to the front assembly, the coupling must be short and there should be no roll through the midsection. Viewed from the rear, the line of bone from hip joint to pad remains straight as the dog moves. As the speed increases the hind legs incline slightly inward. The stifle joints must point in the line of travel, not outward resulting in a bowlegged appearance nor hitching in under the dog. Viewed from the front, the line of bone from shoulder joint to pad remains straight as the dog moves. As the speed increases, the forelegs do not move in exact parallel planes, rather, incline slightly inward. The front legs must not swing out in semicircles nor mince or show any evidence of hackney action. The front and rear assemblies must be in dynamic equilibrium. Somewhat lacking in speed, the Chow has excellent endurance because the sound, straight rear leg provides direct, usable power efficiently

It also states what they want in a front very specifically. They want a 55 degree shoulder layback instead of a 45 that many breeds ask for....

Forequarters
Shoulders strong, well muscled, the tips of the shoulder blades moderately close together; the spine of the shoulder forms an angle approximately 55 degrees with the horizontal and forms an angle with the upper arm approximately 110 degrees. Length of upper arm never less than length of shoulder blade. Elbow joints set well back alongside the chest wall, elbows turning neither in nor out. Forelegs perfectly straight from elbow to foot with heavy bone which must be in proportion to the rest of the dog. Viewed from the front, the forelegs are parallel and widely spaced commensurate with the broad chest. Pasterns short and upright. Wrists shall not knuckle over. The dewclaws may be removed. Feet round, compact, catlike, standing well upon the thick toe pads.

Very much enjoying this discussion.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

The Chow has a bouncy up and down gait. Stilted...yeah. And I should have said "upright shoulder" rather than straight fronted, however 55 degrees is a straight shoulder when compared to a Dobe. The Chow does "roll" or appear to because of the loose skin and long coat--the skin actually moves from side to side as the dog gaits. Most Chows have a loose enough skin that they can turn around in them like a bloody hamster if they want to. The Chows I have seen really do actually roll toward you as they gait. Of course having 9 inches long hair does much to mask what the heck really is going on under there, lol.

I do appreciate the clarification, especially since those who are here to learn something don't need me spooning them mis-information! I really did know what I meant when I wrote the above. I should have been more clear and said something along the lines of "giving the appearance of rolling across the ground".

 

[Gwinnywillow]

*Taking a deep breath before typing*
I do not show GSDs but am a GSD lover. Your statement that GSDs stand that way so they don't collapse is a bunch of bull. I am the first to admit that some of the American line GSDs are being bred to look over angulated since the gait was being rewarded in the American ring. But to say that GSDs can't stand with all 4 feet even or they'd collapse, please.

Shepherds backs are too long, their hips are too messed up, and unless they stand with one hind foot supporting the middle, they would sag. They are deformed. I don't know how many hundreds of Shepherds you have been exposed to, but the facts are the facts. Even the greatest of the Shepherds have ended up horribly crippled. Hatter for one. Very sad to see what had become of him the last time he made an appearance in the show ring. Could barely make it around the ring.

 

[Zoom]

I have to say that the GSD that was in my daycare today supported this fact, no pun intended. I know this dog has never been trained to stack, but anytime she quit moving, she always moved one hind leg under her, right where it looked like she needed support. This is one of the worst (conformationally) looking GSD's I've seen. A whippet has more bredth of chest that this dog; she looks like a fish from the front. Horribly angled hind end and no strength to speak of. She's rather young too, between 3-5 I believe.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

I have to say that the GSD that was in my daycare today supported this fact, no pun intended. I know this dog has never been trained to stack, but anytime she quit moving, she always moved one hind leg under her, right where it looked like she needed support. This is one of the worst (conformationally) looking GSD's I've seen. A whippet has more bredth of chest that this dog; she looks like a fish from the front. Horribly angled hind end and no strength to speak of. She's rather young too, between 3-5 I believe.

Yeah, breeders can do a number on a breed if they decide to get on the fad bandwagon. At one time Chows were bred to have super heavy heads and so many wrinkles that they could not see out of their eyes. And then the backyard breeders get into the act and things really go downhill. At least the show Shepherds are hopefully tested for hips. The pet Shepherds are produced by people who never heard of displaysia. ...don't know if I spelled that right. I know how to spell it, but at the moment just can't get it out.

And the thing is, if someone has seen a dog that looks like a shepherd that can stand four square, who is to say that dog is even a purebred Shepherd?

And Red.....it seems to me, looking with my "mind's eye" that Rotties give the appearance of rolling when moving at a slow trot--again because of the skin slipping from side to side as they move. Yes? again......allow for the poor brain that is coming down with the third cold in 4 weeks!! Don't believe my bad luck!

 

[fillyone]

He doesn't look like he's collapsing to me

There are very poorly bred GSDs out there but to make some broad sweeping statement that GSDs collapse if they don't have a leg under their center is hogwash.
I'm sorry that you've haven't seen more of the well bred GSDs.

 

[fillyone]

And the thing is, if someone has seen a dog that looks like a shepherd that can stand four square, who is to say that dog is even a purebred Shepherd?

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Gwinny, you may see dogs who have enough loose skin to give that rolling effect, but that is not desireable. A Rottweiler should be a clean dry dog with close fitting skin, and a rock hard topline that does not move.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

He doesn't look like he's collapsing to me

There are very poorly bred GSDs out there but to make some broad sweeping statement that GSDs collapse if they don't have a leg under their center is hogwash.
I'm sorry that you've haven't seen more of the well bred GSDs.

You have GOT to be kidding. At least post a picture of a Shepherd that meets the breed standard! It was not a broad sweeping statement, it was a statement of fact. Presenting a pet quality dog to prove a point does not alter the facts! Find a picture of Hatter if you want to present the epitome of German Shepherdom! You DO know who Hatter is I am sure!

 

[fillyone]

You have GOT to be kidding. At least post a picture of a Shepherd that meets the breed standard! It was not a broad sweeping statement, it was a statement of fact. Presenting a pet quality dog to prove a point does not alter the facts! Find a picture of Hatter if you want to present the epitome of German Shepherdom! You DO know who Hatter is I am sure!

Is he collapsing?

 

[fillyone]

I don't follow American line GSDs.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

THIS is what a Shepherd is supposed to look like. I took the time to look it up for you. This was one of the most magnificent Shepherds of all time until he fell apart.

http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/cdogs/CTHManhattan.html

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Is he collapsing?

Is he supposed to be purebred?????????

 

[fillyone]

It was not a broad sweeping statement, it was a statement of fact.

It is NOT a statement of fact. It IS a broad sweeping statement.
GSDs are not going to collapse if they don't stand with a leg under their center.

What is your breed of choice? I have no doubt I could make broad sweeping statements about it as well using some lines or some examples as my 'statement of fact'.