Gwinnywillow

[Gwinnywillow]

Well now, all I DO KNOW is that those intimate with the breed, and some of those TOP IN THE BREED (anyone here heard of Fred Lanting? Sure hope so!) Was not at all happy with what was going on in the breed of GERMAN Shepherds (seems some cannot differentiate between when I am talking about BLOODLINES or geographic location, ) The rears were gone....the dogs could barely get the rear more than 6 inches off the ground to gait. I don't care if those facts upset people or not---they are the facts. No GSD I ever saw in the ring had a level topline. Period. As far as I am concerned this debate has gone on too long. I made a smart arsed statement based on fact, and all of a sudden a bunch of breed fanatics have to come and make a big deal out of it.

As far as Chows, Alaska Lady, I know more about them then you will live to know. I have known them intimately! So I said rolling when the standard says stilted. It sure as heck looks like a rolling gait to me. Having been an intimate acquaintance of a dog who was once upon a time the top winning Chow in the country, and an intimate acquaintance of a top breeder, I sure do know Chows and their movement. And they sure look like they are rolling to me!!! Besides, the point is MOOT---a properly constructed Chow will move proper way no matter what any person calls it!

I am sorry---I do not like Shepherds, nor would I ever want to own one. They just are NOT for me. I am glad those here who have them love them to death. It would be sad to own a breed you couldn't stand (or may a breed that couldn't stand???? Little actually unintentional pun there.)

The excuse about they are stacked to denote speed and readiness is really far fetched. As I said.......the Borzoi is the fastest dog on land, but they sure aren't stacked like that. Of course, they are not 3 feet longer than they are tall.

Ok, I will be good. I have no problem admitting to I know nothing about Shepherds, I don't want to know nothing about Shepherds, and I personally have no use for the breed.........and I will say nothing further about the breed. This has become totally ridiculous. There truly none so blind as those who cannot see.

Peace, life and good health too all GSDs and their owner/ and the lovers of the breed. Oh, would anyone be interested in buying my Royal Doulton Shepherd figurine? It is modeled after some dog "Somebody of Piccardy". 50+ years old.

 

[motherofmany]

What prefix did you say you bred under Gwinny? Anyone can throw out names and claim relationships... I'd really like to know exactly who you are.

I don't accept anyone as an expert on dogs in general or specific breeds unless they are proven and I would advise other posters here to do the same.

Given the large number of factual errors you have made regarding structure, I am calling into question your credentials. Time to, as the saying goes, "put up or shut up."

 

[RD]

Gwinny, I have to politely disagree about the Chow. I don't claim any relationships with influential people in the breed, but I am familiar with the standard and their movement. It's not a rolling gait, and a Chow that DOES have a rolling gait is not moving correctly. They may appear to roll, but if they truly are and it's not just the appearance given by their excess skin and hair, then the dog has poor movement. jmo.

I have to bring up another comment that you made about a pacing gait... You say that it is indicative of "off" structure, yet in breeds like the Fila Brasileiro that is a completely correct gait. Perhaps in Dobermans it is associated with poor structure, but it is not so in all breeds.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

I made a smart arsed statement based on fact, and all of a sudden a bunch of breed fanatics have to come and make a big deal out of it.

No, you made a bunch of "smart arsed statements" based on opinion and you tried to come across as an expert and those more knowledgeable than you came along and showed how little you actually know. Why would someone make those kinds of comments? Were you just trying to cause trouble? Of COURSE those who know more are going to refute your nonsense. You, with this one thread, have completely lost any credibility you may have had.

As far as Chows, Alaska Lady, I know more about them then you will live to know. I have known them intimately! So I said rolling when the standard says stilted. It sure as heck looks like a rolling gait to me. Having been an intimate acquaintance of a dog who was once upon a time the top winning Chow in the country, and an intimate acquaintance of a top breeder, I sure do know Chows and their movement.

Interesting. By knowing someone who has chows, you know them "intimately". Well, I personally own a chow that has twice been the #1 chow in obedience in the U.S. (AKC). I would say that I know movement pretty well too. I trained her, I trialed her, she got a standing ovation at nationals last time we were there. And I'm not talking just novice obedience. This girl took seven first and two seconds in open, competing in classes of up to 25 dogs (beating BC's, goldens and *gasp* even a dobe or two). I currently live with three chows and am more active with my dogs than most conformation people I know. Movement is vitally important to me because my dogs are not just conformation dogs - they need proper movement not only to point in conformation but to actively work in other events.

Ok, I will be good. I have no problem admitting to I know nothing about Shepherds, I don't want to know nothing about Shepherds, and I personally have no use for the breed.........and I will say nothing further about the breed.

You know nothing about shepherds, but you come in here throwing around "facts" and trying to sound like an expert. This is a forum where people come to learn, and yet you deliberately mislead them. Shame on you.

If you had posted "there are shepherds that are so angulated that they can't stand square" I would have agreed with you (and probably the others too). If you had said "there are shepherds with temperament problems" I would have agreed with you, and so would others. But you painted all shepherds with one brush and then cried foul and accuse others of not understanding when you get called on it. What I see is a person who talks big and then puts the blame on everyone else when they're shown to be wrong. You now say you weren't talking about all shepherds (differentiating between countries and/or bloodlines) but you didn't say that initially. You change your words to try to excuse yourself and throw blame on others.

Well, I hope everyone reading this thread has learned about YOU at the very least. Throwing blatant insults about a breed *as a whole* only makes the thrower of insults look bad.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[JennSLK]

And of course, my only experience has been with the American GSDs. I have known some very well trained dogs who were able to do what a Shepherd should be able to do......but that was like 30 years ago. And according to what I re-read in the breed standard, the deformed things walking around the streets of America are not to the standard either. The breed standard says a level topline. Slightly sloping croup. It is amazing that according to some people, the croup starts right behind the neck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Personally thats why I am not a fan of me owning a GSD. Now I have never spent any time with them, but the ones I see in the show rings around here walk in the ring, and out of the ring in a stacked position. Personally I think it looks horable. Their but is less than a foot ubove the floor. At least around here

 

[fillyone]

My concern with the posts is simple. That someone that is unfamilar with GSDs will read those posts and not even bother to look further. That someone will say to a GSD owner "I can't believe you have one of those mean dogs with bad hips".
Education is key and when someone is spouting untruths about an entire breed I have to do my part to dispell those.

 

[motherofmany]

http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm

For a correct interpretation of the standard, go here. Note in particular the topline Straight but sloped, higher at the withers, definitely not a "level topline."

Gosh I love illustrated Standards. Breed videos too. Every parent club should have one!

edited to add, every single time I look closely at GSDs, I want one. Knowing that I am certainly not in a situation right now where it would be in the best interests of me or the dog to have one does little to curb the desire

 

[Gwinnywillow]

http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm

For a correct interpretation of the standard, go here. Note in particular the topline Straight but sloped, higher at the withers, definitely not a "level topline."

Gosh I love illustrated Standards. Breed videos too. Every parent club should have one!

edited to add, every single time I look closely at GSDs, I want one. Knowing that I am certainly not in a situation right now where it would be in the best interests of me or the dog to have one does little to curb the desire

In my original statement I was deliberately exaggerating about most GSDs being crippled. However, it is not that much of an exaggeration.
Now, as far as an illustrated standard, WHO does the illustrating, and what do they use as their basis. The Shepherd standard is very very clear----level topline, sloping CROUP. Croup=area of rump from hips to set on of tail. And since GSDs have a lower tailset than other breeds like the Dobe, etc it would follow that the croup would have to slope.

People can love the breed all they want, but the fact remains that the show breeders have succeeded in creating a deformed breed. And since the show breeders are the ones who are members of the parent club, and are the ones who formulate the breed standard, things are only destined to go downhill.

For many years the show breeders ruined the Chow. The "scowl" became a head so heavily wrinkled that the dogs were actually unable to see. As an further example......look what has become of the Persian cat! Same thing.

I am on my way to check out the above link. I am now officially feeling like crud. Cold seems to be winning. And cold med makes me drunkish feeling.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm

For a correct interpretation of the standard, go here. Note in particular the topline Straight but sloped, higher at the withers, definitely not a "level topline."

Gosh I love illustrated Standards. Breed videos too. Every parent club should have one!

edited to add, every single time I look closely at GSDs, I want one. Knowing that I am certainly not in a situation right now where it would be in the best interests of me or the dog to have one does little to curb the desire

ROFLMBO!!!!!!!!!! Well, that didn't take long. For heaven's sake, they don't even use an actual dog. I have not seen a shepherd like that in the ring EVER. Can anyone maybe find a link to a picture of an actual dog that actually is built like that? I would, but I feel so pitiful at the moment.

I will tell you one thing......if there had ever been a GSD that looked like that, or if the BREED looked like that, then I would never, never, ever state that it was a crippled breed. You have, in effect proven what I have been saying. If the live dogs looked like what they SHOULD look like, there would be no negativity from me! And at least that does answer my question of what is meant by a level topline-------it looks just as I suspected it should!

Thank you for making my case for me!!!!!!

 

[motherofmany]

Gwinny, that is the illustrated AKC standard put tgether by the breed club.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

What prefix did you say you bred under Gwinny? Anyone can throw out names and claim relationships... I'd really like to know exactly who you are.

I don't accept anyone as an expert on dogs in general or specific breeds unless they are proven and I would advise other posters here to do the same.

Given the large number of factual errors you have made regarding structure, I am calling into question your credentials. Time to, as the saying goes, "put up or shut up."

No mamam! As I just posted in response to the illustrated standard, you have proven everything I have said about GSDs. The breed standard proves everything I have been saying. The breed is crippled by breeding for over angulation and too steep a back. The dog in the illustration is very close to hips being at the same level as the shoulders. You do not see that in the ring! Too bad, as I also said, they don't have a live dog to use for the illustration!

As for what I have done.......I have bred champions, Award winners, and my dogs have in turn produced Multiple Best In Show winners. One of my bitches was Brood Bitch of the Year 2 years ago.

The Chows I knew can be seen in Anna K's Book of The Chow Chow.

And a Chow with proper bone mass will LUMBER across the floor. Maybe we can agree on that terminology. Of course there are not that many Chows around with proper mass. As with many breeds over time "elegance" starts to show up even in those breeds not intended to be elegant! Of course again, this is all subjective. But for someone who is not at all rich to finish 32 champion Chows of their own breeding is somewhat of an accomplishment!! No---NOT me, lol.

I gotta go collapse in my chair. My white cells are engaged in a battle royale with the cold germs, and I am caught in the middle. I HATE getting and having a cold.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Just as a fun challenge, as I said, can someone find a live GSD that is constructed anything like the dog shown in the illustrated standard? (A PICTURE of a live dog, that is!)

 

[motherofmany]

That answers that, flame baiting TROLL with no actual experience or she would BRAG BRAG BRAG on her supposed Champion dogs...

 

[Gwinnywillow]

That answers that, flame baiting TROLL with no actual experience or she would BRAG BRAG BRAG on her supposed Champion dogs...

Now, now, let us not get childish here! There are a few here who know my accomplishments. I do not want to broadcast my identity. That is my perogative.

However since you are so knowledgeable, perhaps you have heard of Sporting Fields kennels? Look up Ch. Sporting Fields Josie Wales, Ch. Sporting Fields ET, and there were 3 others whose names I cannot recollect. I am co-breeder. Out of my bitch Princess.

More than that, forgedda bout it, lol.

So.....what is your opinion of the illustrated standard vs. the acutal live doggies?????

I cannot thank you enough for posting that standard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[JennSLK]

I do have to agree with Gwinnywillow. The GSD's that I have seen have their buts practily touching the floor, it does not look pretty.

And yet if you lok at the police dogs, they look like they can actually move. The have a SLIGHTLY slopping back, not a 80 degree slope, and we know they dont use bad bloodlines.

Mind you I am NOT knowledgable of gsd's just stating my opinion.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinny, I have to politely disagree about the Chow. I don't claim any relationships with influential people in the breed, but I am familiar with the standard and their movement. It's not a rolling gait, and a Chow that DOES have a rolling gait is not moving correctly. They may appear to roll, but if they truly are and it's not just the appearance given by their excess skin and hair, then the dog has poor movement. jmo.

I have to bring up another comment that you made about a pacing gait... You say that it is indicative of "off" structure, yet in breeds like the Fila Brasileiro that is a completely correct gait. Perhaps in Dobermans it is associated with poor structure, but it is not so in all breeds.

As I stated in another post.....can we agree on the term LUMBERNG as far as Chow movement.

Read the Fila standard, yes they move at a pace---however the only correct gait in the show ring is the TROT. And the standard states that the Fila should have an outstanding trotting movement. A dog that paces is simply shuffling along. And it could very likely be that there is something in the structure of the Fila that would be considered undersirable in other breeds as a whole that results in that shuffle. I am too "whoopie" from the cold med to keep my eyes in focus to read the whole standard. Plus listening to American Idol!

 

[DanL]

It seems that the American Shepherds are in fact deformed. They are not supposed to have that crouching hind end and that steep slope of the back! According to the standard the top line is supposed to be level---same as in the Dobe. What is referred to as a "table top" topline. The American Shepherds are much longer than the standard calls for. 10 to 8 1/2 is much closer to square than the GSDs you see crawling around the showgrounds. And they gait like sneaking coyotes, or maybe even rats slinking around! You are essentially agreeing with what I have said. As far as temperament, the show bred GSDs are either fracks or too sharp. The BYB Shepherds often are fear biters or overly aggressive.

They just aren't "my cup of tea" but even so, I hate to see how the breed has been ruined over the last 15-20 years. And the reason for the stack is pure and simply to hold up the middle of the dog. If it were to connote speed and readiness, then Greyhounds, Borzoi and Saluki would all be stacked that way, lol. Or the Belgian, or the Teruven (sp) or the Malinois! They are just as speedy and ready for action. But you are right, a Shepherd looks much better with that leg under there holding it up rather than having a big cave in halfway down its topline!

There has been a lot of great info posted here since I last checked. Enough that I don't need to reply to anything in particular since it's been covered, but I DO want to say that I do NOT agree with you Gwinny. You have made vast generalizations about the GSD and I can't agree with much of what you say. I do agree that SOME GSD's have issues but you do not have an ally in me with your other comments. You still are making blanket statements that are wrong, for example, about temperament by generalizing that show dogs are sharp or fracks and BYB dogs are fear biters. There are dogs from good lines that have issues and there are BYB dogs and show dogs that are even tempered and fine dogs. I also disagree about the stack. It's exaggerated in the show dogs because that is the look they go for. Other breeds have exaggerated stacks as well, where they place the back legs back real far, yet those dogs don't normally stand that way either. All stacks are done to accentuate the dogs features. You can't tell me that a dobie stands with his head so upright and his tail standing in the air and all the other things that he does when he stacked, when he's simply standing out in the yard looking at the cars go by.

 

[DanL]

I do have to agree with Gwinnywillow. The GSD's that I have seen have their buts practily touching the floor, it does not look pretty.

And yet if you lok at the police dogs, they look like they can actually move. The have a SLIGHTLY slopping back, not a 80 degree slope, and we know they dont use bad bloodlines.

Mind you I am NOT knowledgable of gsd's just stating my opinion.

Jenn, it's 2 completely different lines of dogs. One is bred to look good in the show ring and the other is bred to work. The working dogs still fit the breed standard based on the original specifications. In Germany they actually have breed wardens who make sure that the dogs are meeting the working standards. Here in the US anyone with a pair of dogs can breed and thats where the problems come in. Not just with GSDs but many other dogs who used to be working dogs that are now bred purely for show- Collies are another good example from what I have heard.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

There has been a lot of great info posted here since I last checked. Enough that I don't need to reply to anything in particular since it's been covered, but I DO want to say that I do NOT agree with you Gwinny. You have made vast generalizations about the GSD and I can't agree with much of what you say. I do agree that SOME GSD's have issues but you do not have an ally in me with your other comments. You still are making blanket statements that are wrong, for example, about temperament by generalizing that show dogs are sharp or fracks and BYB dogs are fear biters. There are dogs from good lines that have issues and there are BYB dogs and show dogs that are even tempered and fine dogs. I also disagree about the stack. It's exaggerated in the show dogs because that is the look they go for. Other breeds have exaggerated stacks as well, where they place the back legs back real far, yet those dogs don't normally stand that way either. All stacks are done to accentuate the dogs features. You can't tell me that a dobie stands with his head so upright and his tail standing in the air and all the other things that he does when he stacked, when he's simply standing out in the yard looking at the cars go by.

Well, believe it or not, that is exactly what a Dobe does when something (such as a killer car goes by) that catches his attention. For the most part a Dobe's tail goes out from the body as a "continuation of the spine". But the Dobe is (or at least used to be) a super alert breed. Their gaze is described as "the look of eagles"......intense, piercing, and drilling holes thru whatever is the focus of that gaze. I think I have had that same gaze ever since the cataract surgery, trying to focus on something that is just not in the right range to focus on,

A Dobe is supposed to be built square. Same from withers to ground as from breast bone to butt. If they have proper angulation they should be able to be stacked with the front of the back toes in a "plumb line" down from the anus.

Show Shepherds are overangulated. WAY over angulated. And as a result are funcked up in the rear. That is all I say!!

Ain't looking for no allies! Or alleys, either. Just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. If I have, I apologize. Now as far as the showlines go........................!!

 

[Gwinnywillow]

What prefix did you say you bred under Gwinny? Anyone can throw out names and claim relationships... I'd really like to know exactly who you are.

I don't accept anyone as an expert on dogs in general or specific breeds unless they are proven and I would advise other posters here to do the same.

Given the large number of factual errors you have made regarding structure, I am calling into question your credentials. Time to, as the saying goes, "put up or shut up."

Here you go, mom.......... check out one of my kids....his picture is at the top. http://www.whippetview.com/wvraintreekennels.html