Gwinnywillow

[Gwinnywillow]

For those that might now have caught this in the above quoted article-----The subtypes (ie, the AKC bloodlines) have not benefitted from the European influence and over time there has developed an unfortunate emphasis on appearance, much to the denegration of functionality, utility, and overall health and hardiness.>> Note DENEGRATION OF FUNCTIONALITY. Now ya suppose that has anything to do with weak rears?????

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Gwinnywillow (oh she of dubious knowledge) says: "And amazingly enough they are not show quality, lol. That is to their advantage!! And anyone reading this thread who knows anything about showlines of both breeds mentions (this does not seem to be the case) knows that I am spot on in what I said."

Wrong again! You just keep making yourself look bad. Two of my chows are from championship parents, and are both pointed in conformation. My young girl has a lot of Redcloud in her, which is a very respected line. No, they're not overdone, heavy-headed bitches. They are nicely boned, move beautifully and meet the breed standard. There are breeders who ARE breeding for those qualities.

Dogs can be show quality and still be athletic and intelligent. If you truly knew anything about chows, you would know that many judges are following the standard and NOT putting up dogs that are overdone, ponderous or move like a tank.

My young showline chow has already worked in flyball, knows several agility exercises well, heels beautifully (exquisite left turns, including a 360° and a back), and is working in freestyle. But her only show experience is conformation so far. And once I could get her head up off the ground (first time at a show site, the smells amazed her) and got her to gait like she should, she took winner's bitch. She was nine months old. This same dog runs and plays freely with my shepherds, swims, retrieves and is a very rough and tumble dog.

You can have both show quality and working quality. Maybe you haven't had that before.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Kenzie]

Well..... I think I was pretty clear with my question in my original post in this thread. Being new to the board, after reading many posts I thought I could ask someone who seemed knowledgable some advice on how to interpret the breed standard to exactly what to look at and look for. Instead, it became an ongoing, however enlightening experience on the Chow and GSD.

Having said that, I will only say, I also have a beloved GSD, and love every hair on her 10 yr old body, but I've learned alot about Gwinnywillow, and because of that, withdraw my original question to you. I'm sorry you seem so bitter and disallusioned Gwinnywillow about the wonderful GSD breed and the dog world in general!

I have read the breed standard, and studied may pics of Alaskan Malamutes, as well as stood both inside and outside the ring at many shows. My question, if anyone else, can answer stands, and I have learned a great deal not about what I asked about, but about a poster....and it ain't good!

Now, back to why I created this thread...can anyone help?

 

[Serena]

Well now, all I DO KNOW is that those intimate with the breed, and some of those TOP IN THE BREED (anyone here heard of Fred Lanting? Sure hope so!) Was not at all happy with what was going on in the breed of GERMAN Shepherds (seems some cannot differentiate between when I am talking about BLOODLINES or geographic location, )

So you resort to name dropping, while your at it why not drop in the fact that those involved in the breed are divided over which is better...Some feel that European bred dogs are ugly, others feel that American bred dogs are all "fluff with no substance...some in the breed love both and where they are from does not matter...Some in the breed would like to see American and German bred dogs as a different breed...What's the difference between these people in the breed pointing out whats wrong with them and you doing so? They have the knowledge, experience, and expertise...they devoted themselves to the breed and have earned the right to list it flaws a million times over.

The rears were gone....the dogs could barely get the rear more than 6 inches off the ground to gait. I don't care if those facts upset people or not---they are the facts. No GSD I ever saw in the ring had a level topline. Period.

Here is the standard taking from the AKC website:

Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.

It sounds like you are misinterpreting the standard to me and that you are jumping to the conclusion the breed should have a "square build".

But misinterpreting standards is not new for you is it? You missed interpreted the chow standard did you not? I can sit here and pull up standards and type up what they mean...

Copying and understanding standards are two entirely different things.

No one is denying that American bred GSD's have not become over exaggerated what they are denying is that the GSD breed as a whole is crippled and weak as you are implying.

As far as I am concerned this debate has gone on too long. I made a smart arsed statement based on fact, and all of a sudden a bunch of breed fanatics have to come and make a big deal out of it.

You made a smart arsed statement without any real knowledge, as far as a bunch of breed fanatics making a big deal out it, darn straight...anyone who sees their breed so wrongly bashed by someone who knows squat is going to come forward...Incidentally I would come forward if someone was wrongly bashing any breed.

As far as Chows, Alaska Lady, I know more about them then you will live to know. I have known them intimately! So I said rolling when the standard says stilted. It sure as heck looks like a rolling gait to me.

It looks like rolling to you, so that makes it fact?

Having been an intimate acquaintance of a dog who was once upon a time the top winning Chow in the country, and an intimate acquaintance of a top breeder, I sure do know Chows and their movement.

To be quite honest I am surprised you didn't name drop here..thus far I have seen you do it with Dobes and with GSD's.

And they sure look like they are rolling to me!!! Besides, the point is MOOT---a properly constructed Chow will move proper way no matter what any person calls it!

Okay so let me get this straight, so you can describe a Chows movement as rolling or lumbering even though the standard specifically says states the opposite and that is acceptable? It is acceptable that you can misguide people and present yourself as an expert and excuse any mistakes you make in your interpretations.

I am sorry---I do not like Shepherds, nor would I ever want to own one. They just are NOT for me. I am glad those here who have them love them to death. It would be sad to own a breed you couldn't stand (or may a breed that couldn't stand???? Little actually unintentional pun there.)

And thank GOD you would never own a GSD, only the most worthy individuals should be so blessed to share their lives with such a wonderful breed...

I am glad you do not like the breed, truly I am...I would hate to see what would happen to such a wonderful breed in your hands...

I will consider the fact that you would never want a GSD a blessing and ask that you always remember that...

The excuse about they are stacked to denote speed and readiness is really far fetched. As I said.......the Borzoi is the fastest dog on land, but they sure aren't stacked like that. Of course, they are not 3 feet longer than they are tall.

Is the Borzoi a Shepherd? No I didn't think so. So tell us are you going to now profess to be an expert in Borzoi's? Whose name will you drop next?

Ok, I will be good. I have no problem admitting to I know nothing about Shepherds, I don't want to know nothing about Shepherds, and I personally have no use for the breed.........and I will say nothing further about the breed. This has become totally ridiculous. There truly none so blind as those who cannot see.

You don't know and you don't want to know...yet you can surely bash...You think because you drop a few names you have the credibility to judge any breed...That is assinine.

I will agree with you that this has become ridiculous, it has become ridiculous to listen to someone with no real knowledge try to present themselves as an expert...

 

[Debi]

from what I've read, I agree with everything Serena said.

 

[motherofmany]

Now, back to why I created this thread...can anyone help?- Kenzie

Kenzie, I posted a link to the illustrated standard of the GSD. That should be very helpful to you. It is put together by people who actually know the breed, who have actually bred and shown dogs. Imagine that! *lol* Your best bet after that is to go to an actual breeder (not just someone who plays one on-line *lol*) and ask to put your hands on their dogs. Example, ask for a dog that they feel has a correct front, and then feel that front, same for rear, head etc. If you can manage to get to a specialty, sometimes they have judges seminars where you can also learn a lot (including why judges are putting up certain dogs, what have they got that stands out etc)

Good for you on wanting to know more and on your ability to spot a phony

Oh, and your pooch is gorgeous. I am very jealous. As I said before, everytime I look closely at GSD's I want one! Of course, the same can be said of me regarding Irish Setters, English Setters, Viszlas, Pointers, Goldens, Dalmations, and Belgians.... if I had less self control I could very well become one of those "collectors" you hear about

Anyone else have that problem? Looking at breeds and saying "I want one of those.... and one of those... and someday I am gonna have one of those...."

oops, I just realized you want to know more about structure in the Mal. Try here
http://www.geocities.com/~texalmal/alasmal/malguide.html

and here
http://kipmik.50webs.com/info/illstandard.html

 

[motherofmany]

Amen, Serena

 

[mojozen]

Of course, the same can be said of me regarding Irish Setters, English Setters, Viszlas, Pointers, Goldens, Dalmations, and Belgians.... if I had less self control I could very well become one of those "collectors" you hear about

Anyone else have that problem? Looking at breeds and saying "I want one of those.... and one of those... and someday I am gonna have one of those...."

Everyday... i want a dachshund, a papillon, a tibetian terrier, an american staffordshire terrier, a greyhound, a chinese crested, a lhasa apso etc.

but instead i just buy books and dream. much safer and cheaper that way.

 

[Kenzie]

motherofmany

That's Perfect!!!!! Thank You So Very Much !!!!!

 

[Serena]

Now, back to why I created this thread...can anyone help?

Kenzie sorry your thread went off track.

Motherofmany already provided you with an illustrated standard of Mals to get you started.

If you need a further listing of the definitions of the terminology commonly used in the show ring and in breed standards that may be helpful in you gain a further understanding of those terms this is from the AKC site.

AKC Glossary

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinnywillow (oh she of dubious knowledge) says: "And amazingly enough they are not show quality, lol. That is to their advantage!! And anyone reading this thread who knows anything about showlines of both breeds mentions (this does not seem to be the case) knows that I am spot on in what I said."

Wrong again! You just keep making yourself look bad. Two of my chows are from championship parents, and are both pointed in conformation. My young girl has a lot of Redcloud in her, which is a very respected line. No, they're not overdone, heavy-headed bitches. They are nicely boned, move beautifully and meet the breed standard. There are breeders who ARE breeding for those qualities.

Dogs can be show quality and still be athletic and intelligent. If you truly knew anything about chows, you would know that many judges are following the standard and NOT putting up dogs that are overdone, ponderous or move like a tank.

My young showline chow has already worked in flyball, knows several agility exercises well, heels beautifully (exquisite left turns, including a 360° and a back), and is working in freestyle. But her only show experience is conformation so far. And once I could get her head up off the ground (first time at a show site, the smells amazed her) and got her to gait like she should, she took winner's bitch. She was nine months old. This same dog runs and plays freely with my shepherds, swims, retrieves and is a very rough and tumble dog.

You can have both show quality and working quality. Maybe you haven't had that before.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Yeah, I have heard of Redcloud. Had herself a bitch so badly dysplastic it had to be put down. We had a breeder around here had the same type of dog....champions too. One or two were actually halfway decent.

Oh, and any dog is "SHOW QUALITY" if it has 4 legs, a head and a tail, and no disqualifying faults. Minor detail I realize. If those are your Chows in your signature, I notice that they are totally open faced, and don't have the scowl required by the breed standard? How many points did she win at that show where she went W.B.? One of these days I am going to see if I can find the AKC scale of points online somewhere.

Oh, and I don't know who told you Redcloud is very respected. They are a so-so kennel. Do you happen to own any of the Chow books? Anna K. Nicholas compiled a truly magnificent tomb on the breed.

I think it is wonderful that you love your dogs, and do a variety of activities with them. But that does not mean that your dogs are typical of the breed! There are always exceptions to everything in life. That includes canines!!!

 

[Gwinnywillow]

So you resort to name dropping, while your at it why not drop in the fact that those involved in the breed are divided over which is better...Some feel that European bred dogs are ugly, others feel that American bred dogs are all "fluff with no substance...some in the breed love both and where they are from does not matter...Some in the breed would like to see American and German bred dogs as a different breed...What's the difference between these people in the breed pointing out whats wrong with them and you doing so? They have the knowledge, experience, and expertise...they devoted themselves to the breed and have earned the right to list it flaws a million times over.





Here is the standard taking from the AKC website:

Topline-- The withers are higher than and sloping into the level back. The back is straight, very strongly developed without sag or roach, and relatively short.

It sounds like you are misinterpreting the standard to me and that you are jumping to the conclusion the breed should have a "square build".

But misinterpreting standards is not new for you is it? You missed interpreted the chow standard did you not? I can sit here and pull up standards and type up what they mean...

Copying and understanding standards are two entirely different things.

No one is denying that American bred GSD's have not become over exaggerated what they are denying is that the GSD breed as a whole is crippled and weak as you are implying.




You made a smart arsed statement without any real knowledge, as far as a bunch of breed fanatics making a big deal out it, darn straight...anyone who sees their breed so wrongly bashed by someone who knows squat is going to come forward...Incidentally I would come forward if someone was wrongly bashing any breed.



It looks like rolling to you, so that makes it fact?



To be quite honest I am surprised you didn't name drop here..thus far I have seen you do it with Dobes and with GSD's.



Okay so let me get this straight, so you can describe a Chows movement as rolling or lumbering even though the standard specifically says states the opposite and that is acceptable? It is acceptable that you can misguide people and present yourself as an expert and excuse any mistakes you make in your interpretations.



And thank GOD you would never own a GSD, only the most worthy individuals should be so blessed to share their lives with such a wonderful breed...

I am glad you do not like the breed, truly I am...I would hate to see what would happen to such a wonderful breed in your hands...

I will consider the fact that you would never want a GSD a blessing and ask that you always remember that...



Is the Borzoi a Shepherd? No I didn't think so. So tell us are you going to now profess to be an expert in Borzoi's? Whose name will you drop next?



You don't know and you don't want to know...yet you can surely bash...You think because you drop a few names you have the credibility to judge any breed...That is assinine.

I will agree with you that this has become ridiculous, it has become ridiculous to listen to someone with no real knowledge try to present themselves as an expert...

Well, since you are the expert I should have consulted.......and apparently did not bother to read the excerpt from that web site that speaks specifically to the wedge developing between breeders of the American lines, and the German lines, and that states that the American Shepherd AS A WHOLE can no longer function as a Shepherd is expected to function........

And you have the temerity to accuse me of dropping names?????? I mention the names of friends and personal acquaintances and that is dropping names???????? Although it is of no import to this issue, Fred once upon a time went totally wild over a puppy I was showing and informed me that if he did not already have too many dogs, it would mysteriously disappear from the shows grounds.

Debbie Butt was a lovely young lady whom I spent time with once upon a time consoling her over the fact that her husband at the time was a horse's backside. In fact, I had suggested to her when I heard about the upcoming marriage that I had a strong feeling she should wait a goodly while before marry anyone.

Now, as far as Shepherds.........the withers are higher than the back, and sloping back INTO THE LEVEL BACK. Do you or any of the others here have a clue what a LEVEL back is? And in the majority of breeds I know about, the withers are always the highest point of the back!!!!!!!
Nowhere in the standard does it say that the back of the dog should SLOPE, ok???? Look at the illustrated standard again........it shows a dog with a level topline!!!!! And as I said......anyone have a picture of a dog that LOOKS like that standard?? A real live breathing (Or at one time breathing) dog.

All I can say is if folks here like the look of the American Shepherd, and cannot see the damage that has been done to the breed, then there is nothing that one little person such as myself to get you to objectively observe the situation. Oh, and I am so very sorry you have no names to drop.

I have said all I have to say on the matter at hand. No one here is to fault, really because many rich powerful people have made the GSD breed what it is today in this country, and if they can't see or care about what they have done....who else should be expected to!

Oh, and my dislike of the breed extends to any large hairy breed with a long tail. They are too big, they shed all the time in spite of how often they are brushed, and nothing of value is safe around their tail ends.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Well..... I think I was pretty clear with my question in my original post in this thread. Being new to the board, after reading many posts I thought I could ask someone who seemed knowledgable some advice on how to interpret the breed standard to exactly what to look at and look for. Instead, it became an ongoing, however enlightening experience on the Chow and GSD.

Having said that, I will only say, I also have a beloved GSD, and love every hair on her 10 yr old body, but I've learned alot about Gwinnywillow, and because of that, withdraw my original question to you. I'm sorry you seem so bitter and disallusioned Gwinnywillow about the wonderful GSD breed and the dog world in general!

I have read the breed standard, and studied may pics of Alaskan Malamutes, as well as stood both inside and outside the ring at many shows. My question, if anyone else, can answer stands, and I have learned a great deal not about what I asked about, but about a poster....and it ain't good!

Now, back to why I created this thread...can anyone help?

Sorry you feel like that. However, the fact that those trying to slam me cannot even interpret the GSD standard should give you a clue as to who knows what they are talking about. Those folks with a pet dog or two in their lives who claim that their limited experience represents the "facts" are not exactly to be relied upon in any way.

They know nothing about the breed overall. If they did, they would not be so eager to bash me! See for yourself---look at the illustrated breed standard momma posted, then find some pictures of show Shepherds online, and then YOU tell me what you think. Your eyes and judgment are just as valid as anyone else's around here!!

Personally I do not believe in thrashing a dead horse (or dog) beyond recognition. As said, I have put forth my opinions. No sense simply repeating them. Waste of bandwidth.

I must say, I am surprised that none of the experts here have mentioned how structurally bad my male Dobe is. As I said.....ya gotta learn to fault your own dog. Gee whillikers......maybe that is why so many in this thread can't objectively see what their dogs look like???

Just kidding......enough is too much.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinnywillow (oh she of dubious knowledge) says: "And amazingly enough they are not show quality, lol. That is to their advantage!! And anyone reading this thread who knows anything about showlines of both breeds mentions (this does not seem to be the case) knows that I am spot on in what I said."

Wrong again! You just keep making yourself look bad. Two of my chows are from championship parents, and are both pointed in conformation. My young girl has a lot of Redcloud in her, which is a very respected line. No, they're not overdone, heavy-headed bitches. They are nicely boned, move beautifully and meet the breed standard. There are breeders who ARE breeding for those qualities.

Dogs can be show quality and still be athletic and intelligent. If you truly knew anything about chows, you would know that many judges are following the standard and NOT putting up dogs that are overdone, ponderous or move like a tank.

My young showline chow has already worked in flyball, knows several agility exercises well, heels beautifully (exquisite left turns, including a 360° and a back), and is working in freestyle. But her only show experience is conformation so far. And once I could get her head up off the ground (first time at a show site, the smells amazed her) and got her to gait like she should, she took winner's bitch. She was nine months old. This same dog runs and plays freely with my shepherds, swims, retrieves and is a very rough and tumble dog.

You can have both show quality and working quality. Maybe you haven't had that before.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

It just dawned on me....."CHAMPIONSHIP parents"??? Are they champions or not? And looking at your dogs heads, all I can say is----here is a picture of a MINIMALLY acceptable head on a Chow. I hope you can see the difference? And I am not in anyway connected with this kennel...... I just found them doing a search. http://chinabar.tripod.com/angel.html

I rest my case, and end my participation in this fruitless conversation.

 

[JennSLK]

Gwinnywillow why are you so bent on telling everyone that their dogs suck??

I would like to know were you got all of this "knowledge" on these breeds of dogs. It seems to me that you know every person that is top in almost every breed.

 

[Serena]

Well, since you are the expert I should have consulted.......and apparently did not bother to read the excerpt from that web site that speaks specifically to the wedge developing between breeders of the American lines, and the German lines, and that states that the American Shepherd AS A WHOLE can no longer function as a Shepherd is expected to function........

You are rambling again..No one ever denied that there is a wedge between breeders of American and European bred GSD's...its no secret that very few American breeders actually work their dogs...being able to copy and paste this information is nothing new, it does not prove your point.

And you have the temerity to accuse me of dropping names?????? I mention the names of friends and personal acquaintances and that is dropping names????????

Name dropping is exactly what you are doing...What happened in the other thread..a poster asked about breeding Dobes, you tossed out names of every you claim to know...as if that is impressive...Ever heard the saying it's not who you know but what you know?

Now, as far as Shepherds.........the withers are higher than the back, and sloping back INTO THE LEVEL BACK. Do you or any of the others here have a clue what a LEVEL back is?

I am quite aware of what a level back is...are you?

And in the majority of breeds I know about, the withers are always the highest point of the back!!!!!!!

Well then you would stand corrected, the withers by definition is the highest point of a dogs SHOULDERS..

Tell me are the words shoulder and back interchangeable to suit your interpretation of the standard?

Nowhere in the standard does it say that the back of the dog should SLOPE, ok???? Look at the illustrated standard again........it shows a dog with a level topline!!!!! And as I said......anyone have a picture of a dog that LOOKS like that standard?? A real live breathing (Or at one time breathing) dog.

No it doesn't say the back should slope, it says the withers (highest point of the shoulders) should slope into the level back. Nobody ever said that American bred GSD's are not over emphasised...

What would be the point of posting a dog that looked exactly like the standard? I am sure you will just respond with something to trash the dog stating how it became crippled, dysplastic, arthritic, ect..

All I can say is if folks here like the look of the American Shepherd, and cannot see the damage that has been done to the breed, then there is nothing that one little person such as myself to get you to objectively observe the situation. Oh, and I am so very sorry you have no names to drop.

Where did anyone say that they like the look of the American GSD...I never even claimed my preference, which if you must know is West German Showlines..The only thing anyone said is that you are bashing the breed unfairly without any knowledge.

As far as being sorry that I have no names to drop, think again...unlike you however I prefer my knowledge in the breed to be based upon what I know and what I say, not based on who I claim to know..

I have said all I have to say on the matter at hand. No one here is to fault, really because many rich powerful people have made the GSD breed what it is today in this country, and if they can't see or care about what they have done....who else should be expected to!

You have said all you care to say because the more you type the more assinine you sound.

Oh, and my dislike of the breed extends to any large hairy breed with a long tail. They are too big, they shed all the time in spite of how often they are brushed, and nothing of value is safe around their tail ends.

Then stay away from the breed, real simple aint it? I can tell you right now with your attitude it's lucky you don't have or want GSD's.

 

[Mindy Miller]

[/QUOTE] Personally I do not believe in thrashing a dead horse (or dog) beyond recognition. As said, I have put forth my opinions. No sense simply repeating them. Waste of bandwidth.

Just kidding......enough is too much. [/QUOTE]

Do you really feel that way?? Cause seriously, you share responsibility in dragging this thing out...

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Personally I do not believe in thrashing a dead horse (or dog) beyond recognition. As said, I have put forth my opinions. No sense simply repeating them. Waste of bandwidth.

Just kidding......enough is too much. [/QUOTE]

Do you really feel that way?? Cause seriously, you share responsibility in dragging this thing out...[/QUOTE]

No comment.

 

[Zoom]

Ok, kids, playtime's over. Pack up the toys and let's call it a day. I hope the OP got the information they were seeking, but I do believe this thread has run it's course of usefulness.

Any further discussions should be carried out via PM's. Thank you.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinnywillow why are you so bent on telling everyone that their dogs suck??

I would like to know were you got all of this "knowledge" on these breeds of dogs. It seems to me that you know every person that is top in almost every breed.

Not really, but over a period of time you come to know certain people involved in the breeds you happen to be interested in. And sometimes breeds you aren't especially interested in.

Mention was made of me dropping names of Dobe people. It seems that mentioning the names of acquaintances is dropping names if that person happens to be well known??? I mentioned Ellen Hoffman.....I sat in her living room, while Prez attempted to back up and sit on my mother's lap. I had taken my blue bitch to her to evaluate for handling purposes. I also attended handling classes given by Ellen. Dobe people are a friendly helpful group, and embrace all those who come into the breed with the proper love and respect of that breed. Can't help that.

And as far as telling people their dogs suck.......the average pet of any breed falls far short of the breed standard. And (now pay attention to what I am about to say!!!!) In many cases it is better for those dogs that they NOT look like what the breed standard calls for! Within reason and limits, of course. I don't see why I should have to say anything---the breed standards are out there online, and it should not be hard to find pictures of dogs that at least resemble the written standard. Do you not agree? Would you think a Dobe that looked like a Rottie was a good example of the breed? Or a Shepherd that looks like a coyote was a good example of the breed? Or a Chow that looks like a platypus fulfills the breed standard? Somehow I think not!