Gwinnywillow

[IliamnasQuest]

Just as a matter of note to those reading this who want to know the reality of what a chow should/can look like and still be a chow that wins in the ring.

The breed standard states:

"Expression essentially scowling, dignified, lordly, discerning, sober and snobbish, one of independence. The scowl is achieved by a marked brow with a padded button of skin just above the inner, upper corner of each eye; by sufficient play of skin to form frowning brows and a distinct furrow between the eyes beginning at the base of the muzzle and extending up the forehead; by the correct eye shape and placement and by the correct ear shape, carriage and placement. Excessive loose skin is not desirable. Wrinkles on the muzzle do not contribute to expression and are not required."

Both of my younger chows have the required "padded buttons" and scowling expression, although neither have a heavily scowling face. They both have the furrow between the eyes. Excessive loose skin and wrinkling is not a good thing, regardless of whether or not judges are putting it up. Yes, there are some people who prefer that look - however, that does not make it RIGHT.

Gwinnywillow, the photo you showed is not of a "MINIMALLY acceptable head" .. that's a bitch with a reasonable head within the breed standards, but SO ARE MINE. You just plain don't know what you're talking about.

As far as the "championship" .. yes, I should have said "champion". Shall I go back and pick out all of your spelling and grammatical errors? That would take hours .. you are NOT good with words, as is obvious by your various posts.

The Redcloud line may have had a dysplastic dog somewhere along the line. I'd say most breeders run into that at some point. I won't argue that because I don't know. However, the Redcloud bloodlines are quite respectable and highly thought of overall. No, they're not the overdone, ponderous "lumbering" dogs that you evidently think are the epitome of a chow. But then again, some of us know what a chow should be like, and some are stuck on beliefs formed by "intimate" knowledge of a winning dog or two.

You know something? You might learn something by reading back through these posts and realizing that YOU have no allies in this. That's because you come across as completely unbelievable. You have contradicted yourself so many times that no one puts any credence in your words.

Maybe you need to re-think your "vast knowledge" of breeds.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Jynx]

Well it's taken me about 15 minutes to read thru this entire thread. Interesting to say the least.

All I want to add to this is, I've had GSD's for 30 years. Not one of my dogs were dysplastic nor passed away before 12 years old. I have shown my dogs in conformation, obedience, agility , some herding & tracking. I've had american lines, czech lines, ddr lines.

I want to end by saying, Gwinney should stick with her whippets .

Diane

 

[ShadowCat]

I want to end by saying, Gwinney should stick with her whippets .

Whippets? Do you mean dobes or are you being sarcastic?

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Well it's taken me about 15 minutes to read thru this entire thread. Interesting to say the least.

All I want to add to this is, I've had GSD's for 30 years. Not one of my dogs were dysplastic nor passed away before 12 years old. I have shown my dogs in conformation, obedience, agility , some herding & tracking. I've had american lines, czech lines, ddr lines.

I want to end by saying, Gwinney should stick with her whippets .

Diane

It is nice to meet you, Diane. And congrats on having a thorough working relationship with your dogs. However what I have said regarding them was directed to the BREED...not individual dogs. For pity sake, can know one see the difference between the illustrated standard that Mother posted, and the crippled things seen in the ring, and everywhere you see a picture of a GSD? My opinion of any breed is just that--my opinion...to which although some might not like it, I am entitled!

My gripe is how the breeders managed to ruin the breed. Period. And yet there are so many who seem to be blind to the damage done. And according to your calculations, it could be contuded that you have only dealt with maybe 3 dogs.......12 years each, 30 years involved. I realize that is not the case of course.

Anyway, the horrid state of the GSD breed is recognized around the world. I am shocked that folks here think I originated this viewpoint simply because I don't like Shepherds.

But......as the saying goes, "different strokes". Again, very nice meeting you.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Just as a matter of note to those reading this who want to know the reality of what a chow should/can look like and still be a chow that wins in the ring.

The breed standard states:

"Expression essentially scowling, dignified, lordly, discerning, sober and snobbish, one of independence. The scowl is achieved by a marked brow with a padded button of skin just above the inner, upper corner of each eye; by sufficient play of skin to form frowning brows and a distinct furrow between the eyes beginning at the base of the muzzle and extending up the forehead; by the correct eye shape and placement and by the correct ear shape, carriage and placement. Excessive loose skin is not desirable. Wrinkles on the muzzle do not contribute to expression and are not required."

Both of my younger chows have the required "padded buttons" and scowling expression, although neither have a heavily scowling face. They both have the furrow between the eyes. Excessive loose skin and wrinkling is not a good thing, regardless of whether or not judges are putting it up. Yes, there are some people who prefer that look - however, that does not make it RIGHT.

Gwinnywillow, the photo you showed is not of a "MINIMALLY acceptable head" .. that's a bitch with a reasonable head within the breed standards, but SO ARE MINE. You just plain don't know what you're talking about.

As far as the "championship" .. yes, I should have said "champion". Shall I go back and pick out all of your spelling and grammatical errors? That would take hours .. you are NOT good with words, as is obvious by your various posts.

The Redcloud line may have had a dysplastic dog somewhere along the line. I'd say most breeders run into that at some point. I won't argue that because I don't know. However, the Redcloud bloodlines are quite respectable and highly thought of overall. No, they're not the overdone, ponderous "lumbering" dogs that you evidently think are the epitome of a chow. But then again, some of us know what a chow should be like, and some are stuck on beliefs formed by "intimate" knowledge of a winning dog or two.

You know something? You might learn something by reading back through these posts and realizing that YOU have no allies in this. That's because you come across as completely unbelievable. You have contradicted yourself so many times that no one puts any credence in your words.

Maybe you need to re-think your "vast knowledge" of breeds.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Errrr.....what happened to the pictures of those chows in your signature? Anyway, as I said if you do not have Anna K. Nicholas' The Book Of The Chow Chow, you and every other Chow afficienados should get one immediately.

Spelling? Sorry, blame my spell checker. Or do you think that because I deliberately misspell some words to accentuate what I am saying that I really can't spell.

You seem to also have overlooked what I said about my Chow source. Intimate knowledge based on knowing a winning Chow or two? I am more impressed by someone who has bred over 30 champion Chows all by themselves! And once upon a time, there were many breeds where there was not the politics, and a championship actually was an indication of quality!

Perhaps I should have stated right off that when I think of showing and champions and the like I am speaking in reference to dogs competing for ranking......not just championship points. My experience with dogs started out from the beginning in the showring venue. And show people do have a totally difference perspective on things.

Now, if those two dogs in your signature are what you are talking about, I don't see even a hint of a scowl.

And the standard calls for the Chow to be heavy boned--as heavy boned as possible while maintaining "balance". I will not even try to explain balance. It is something you have to have the ability to perceive when you watch a dog move.

And one more tiny point here......all should bear in mind that when one has Dobes and/or sighthounds, a Chow most certainly lumbers in comparison.....depends on what your eye is used to looking for. I don't care how the standard phrases it......to me, Chows lumber. And so do Rotties, and every other breed of dog that is almost as wide as they are long. That is what it looks like to me. Correct or not--phooey. My eyeballs opinion is lumber!!!!!

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Whippets? Do you mean dobes or are you being sarcastic?

I see you have a section of The Desiderata quoted in your sig. One of the most beautiful pieces written by a human!

 

[Gwinnywillow]

The greatest Chow that every lived......according to all the important founders of the breed..... http://www.lohanchows.com/ChowPedigrees/prophet.htm Another was supposed to be Ch. Spy Of Poppyland.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

And another of the greatest. I think it might be best if I just SHOW what I consider to be fine looking dogs. The rest of you can compare what you have with what you see.

http://www.lohanchows.com/ChowPedigrees/spy.htm

 

[Mach1girl]

One thing I have learned is that you can post a picture of an actual LEGEND in your breed, and someone will be there to slam it back down no matter what. Dont know why, maybe its because one may not see a fit resemblence to their dog, or ones view on the breed may vary from the standard. But wither way, no boby agrees with each other!

For instance, Throwin Knuckles, dual registered APBT, is a legend in the UKC, AKC and ADBA world. This dog IS proven and mighty BEAUTIFUL-in my eyes as well as thousands of others eyes as wellBUT-If you like the original GAME DOG APBT, muscle, ribs, long, sleek, slender, etc, then you will cut Knuckles down. It all depends on the personal prefrences. And if you read the standard-both KNUCKLES and GAME DOG fit it. So, they ARE alike, but different!

Said my peice, tried to make a point, Im sure someone will disagree but-that's my point!

 

[Dani]

No one's denying that the German Shepherd has had problems with hip dysplasia, and the like. But to say that they are all a mess is a falsity. And no, German Shepherds are not stacked like that because their hips are too weak. It's just the way they have to pose, and while I personally don't like the look when their back legs are so low, they do not constantly stand like that. If you do a search on google, you will find many German Shepherds standing normally.

If German Shepherds are so weak, they would not be used for police work, they would not be participating in Schutzhund, or any other activities. German Shepherds are far from pitiful.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

No one's denying that the German Shepherd has had problems with hip dysplasia, and the like. But to say that they are all a mess is a falsity. And no, German Shepherds are not stacked like that because their hips are too weak. It's just the way they have to pose, and while I personally don't like the look when their back legs are so low, they do not constantly stand like that. If you do a search on google, you will find many German Shepherds standing normally.

If German Shepherds are so weak, they would not be used for police work, they would not be participating in Schutzhund, or any other activities. German Shepherds are far from pitiful.

Thank you for your non-bashing tone! It is appreciated, believe me. But one thing I found while looking around online is that it seems that most police departments are now using GSDs that are either heavy on the German bloodlines, or actually imported. Surprised the heck out of me.

I personally feel that the largest part of the problem is that the Shepherd is so very, very, very overangulated in the rear.

The only reason I even first mentioned the GSD was because it is a prime example of how breeders can ruin a breed by breeding for what wins instead of breeding to the standard. As I keep saying---look at the illustrated standard link, and then look at the dogs you see pictured. They sure don't look anything like the breed standard. And the breed has suffered as a result of that deviation. Collies are another breed, Chows another. People start breeding for the traits that are being put up in the ring, and soon the breed is on its way to Hades in a handbasket!

My angst is aimed at the breeders......not the breed. I have said, and I meant it, that I don't like the breed. It doesn't ring my chimes. But that is why there are something like 200+ recognized breeds. Different lines and shapes appeal to different "eyes". I have a friend who can't stand breeds without long hair....and I mean LONG hair, lol. To each of us our own!

 

[Gwinnywillow]

One thing I have learned is that you can post a picture of an actual LEGEND in your breed, and someone will be there to slam it back down no matter what. Dont know why, maybe its because one may not see a fit resemblence to their dog, or ones view on the breed may vary from the standard. But wither way, no boby agrees with each other!

For instance, Throwin Knuckles, dual registered APBT, is a legend in the UKC, AKC and ADBA world. This dog IS proven and mighty BEAUTIFUL-in my eyes as well as thousands of others eyes as wellBUT-If you like the original GAME DOG APBT, muscle, ribs, long, sleek, slender, etc, then you will cut Knuckles down. It all depends on the personal prefrences. And if you read the standard-both KNUCKLES and GAME DOG fit it. So, they ARE alike, but different!

Said my peice, tried to make a point, Im sure someone will disagree but-that's my point!

Heheh......the trick is when you get a dog that was used as a living example of the breed. There is a Whippet, Ch. Fleetfoot's Courtney Of Pennyworth, who was used to formulate the breed standard! Kinda hard to argue with that. Of course there will those who try.....but they are dismissed-----as well they should be. Some people just are not blessed with an "eye for a dog"! Not even if they wear both glasses and contacts, hehehehehehe.

 

[Jynx]

First one poster asked if I was being sarcastic when I made the "whippet" comment, no I wasn't, I believe Gwinney posted a pic/site of a whippet that she had sold to someone, so assume that she has/had whippets. Personally I don't know what breed of dog she has, dobies since the poster asked if I meant dobies?

Anyhow, here's my "piece"..I can certainly say that I see a whole lotta GSD's in the show ring I would NOT take home with me. I do not like an overly angulated dog, and I don't like skitzy temperaments. I can agree that there are alot of 'people' who have screwed up the GSD. I don't think it's just the GSD breed that has problems, it's 95% of the purebreds today.

However, for every dog I particularly don't care for, I can find a dog I like and would take home with me.

In EVERY purebred breed today you have differences of "what" is the perfect dog.

There are alot of German Bred dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole as well.

While I don't find appealing, nor want, an overly angulated dog, just "because" it is, does not mean the dog has hip problems. A HUGE misconception.

There are alot of really great American gsd breeders who do justice to the breed. They are showing and working their dogs. I applaud them.

I'm pretty used to hearing the misconceptions about GSD's that alot of people have. Some are true, most are not, so you educate them. Sometimes it's a waste of breath, othertimes it's not.

I've learned over the years to spend my time on my own dogs, I know what I want in a dog, I know what I like and I know what I have.

Ok done rambling here
Diane

 

[Gwinnywillow]

First one poster asked if I was being sarcastic when I made the "whippet" comment, no I wasn't, I believe Gwinney posted a pic/site of a whippet that she had sold to someone, so assume that she has/had whippets. Personally I don't know what breed of dog she has, dobies since the poster asked if I meant dobies?

Anyhow, here's my "piece"..I can certainly say that I see a whole lotta GSD's in the show ring I would NOT take home with me. I do not like an overly angulated dog, and I don't like skitzy temperaments. I can agree that there are alot of 'people' who have screwed up the GSD. I don't think it's just the GSD breed that has problems, it's 95% of the purebreds today.

However, for every dog I particularly don't care for, I can find a dog I like and would take home with me.

In EVERY purebred breed today you have differences of "what" is the perfect dog.

There are alot of German Bred dogs I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole as well.

While I don't find appealing, nor want, an overly angulated dog, just "because" it is, does not mean the dog has hip problems. A HUGE misconception.

There are alot of really great American gsd breeders who do justice to the breed. They are showing and working their dogs. I applaud them.

I'm pretty used to hearing the misconceptions about GSD's that alot of people have. Some are true, most are not, so you educate them. Sometimes it's a waste of breath, othertimes it's not.

I've learned over the years to spend my time on my own dogs, I know what I want in a dog, I know what I like and I know what I have.

Ok done rambling here
Diane

Well put, Diane. But a forum made up mainly of pet owners is not exactly a good place for analysis of canine structure......as this thread has shown. People who do not have a broad prospective just don't get what is being said. One of two pets are not an example of what is going on with a breed.......whereas a ring full of dogs at show after show after show all overangulated, somewhat "funky" in the rear is what I was picturing!

I notice there have been no comments from the Chow lady in Alaska about the picture of Prophet and Spy!! Wonder why??

 

[fillyone]

Gwinnywillow,
If you had said in the very beginning that you didn't like what you were seeing in the American show rings, or the German show rings this whole thread would have probably been different. But instead you painted the entire GSD breed as unhealthy dogs with bad temperaments.

I don't like a lot of what I see in the American show rings. I also know there are some very nice American line GSDs out there winning in the ring as well as in obedience, herding, tracking etc.

There will always be trends in the show rings, I wonder if they've ever let the Western Pleasure horses get their noses back up out of the dirt, and those trends can do a lot of damage to a breed. My hope is that we'll begin to see a turn in the tide with the American line soon as the breeders I spoke of above have more success. One can hope.

And you're right; Dante was purchased as a pet quality GSD, and is not a show dog. He is however a great dog and for the public eye a very good ambassador of the breed. Ask the mother of the 1 year old girl who spent time petting him at the library yesterday. This is as important as the dogs in the ring; public perception of large dogs goes a long way when it comes to BSLs.

Though I very strongly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, one must be careful to not paint a broad stroke across an entire breed of dog. Though there are a number of breeds I don’t care for and don’t like what I see in the ring, I don’t go around painting every line/type of that dog as horrible.

As far as the “Chow lady in Alaska”, she doesn’t seem to be the type to back down from anything so I would guess she’s not online.

 

[Gwinnywillow]

Gwinnywillow,
If you had said in the very beginning that you didn't like what you were seeing in the American show rings, or the German show rings this whole thread would have probably been different. But instead you painted the entire GSD breed as unhealthy dogs with bad temperaments.

I don't like a lot of what I see in the American show rings. I also know there are some very nice American line GSDs out there winning in the ring as well as in obedience, herding, tracking etc.

There will always be trends in the show rings, I wonder if they've ever let the Western Pleasure horses get their noses back up out of the dirt, and those trends can do a lot of damage to a breed. My hope is that we'll begin to see a turn in the tide with the American line soon as the breeders I spoke of above have more success. One can hope.

And you're right; Dante was purchased as a pet quality GSD, and is not a show dog. He is however a great dog and for the public eye a very good ambassador of the breed. Ask the mother of the 1 year old girl who spent time petting him at the library yesterday. This is as important as the dogs in the ring; public perception of large dogs goes a long way when it comes to BSLs.

Though I very strongly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, one must be careful to not paint a broad stroke across an entire breed of dog. Though there are a number of breeds I don’t care for and don’t like what I see in the ring, I don’t go around painting every line/type of that dog as horrible.

As far as the “Chow lady in Alaska”, she doesn’t seem to be the type to back down from anything so I would guess she’s not online.

I must admit that I have not been a shining example of clarity lately. The stupid cold pills don't help. I think they must be 40 proof (think that equals 20% alcohol?). The only place I have seen Shepherds has been in the show ring. I guess everyone missed where I pointed out...possibly to DanL(?) That his dog was what would be consider pet quality, which is very much TO THE ADVANTAGE of this dog!!!!!

The working Shepherd and show version are totally different it seems--like the "bench and field" setters.

And you are right........every so often breeders get sidetracked into worrying about what "type" is being put up, and will start breeding for that type. Years back Chows had such heavily wrinkled heads that they could not see. And breathing became a real problem. From the little I have seen of Chows lately they seem to be working on this issue.

I am happy that it turns out we more or less have a similar viewpoint. And I can just imagine what has been happening in the world of horses!! I often watch the Quarter Horse shows on RFD channel. And I LOVE to watch the Paso Fino shows!!!!!! That ratatatatatatat just thrills my bones! Don't have a clue why....just does.

And with the Quarter horses I really get into the cutting trials!

Ah well......I had to take some of those awful cold pills, and my brain is starting to feel a little spaced out. Time to sleep.

I suspect there is not much our young friend from Alaska CAN say about her dogs compared to the two in the links. There is no comparison...two different leagues, unfortunately.

A good night to all!!!!!!

 

[IliamnasQuest]

It's not a matter of backing down, I thought a moderator asked us to stop and so I haven't been back to this topic until now.

I didn't look at the links posted - what would be the point? You can find whatever you like online and just because you posted a couple of photos does not mean you know what you're talking about. You're talking about the past, I'm living the present. Whatever you may think of your intimate relationship with the friend with 30 champions, a chow does not need to have a heavy scowl in order to be proper or in order to win. More and more chow people are going to the classic face - scowling but not heavy with pads of flesh and wrinkles. And more and more judges are putting those types up.

By the way, I have five dogs in my avatar.. and three of those are chows. Two of those chows are show quality, have pointed in conformation. I don't waste a lot of time in conformation, however, because to me the true worth of a dog is shown in the intelligence, working ability and companionship the animal offers. I don't keep my dogs in kennels - never have, never will. I will never be one of those breeders who thinks a dog's value is in gaining a conformation championship and then sticking the dog out in a kennel or placing it because the dog no longer has any value to them.

I have no doubt - nor do the conformation chow people who have assessed my dog - that my younger chow could get her championship. But she may not, and that's because I prefer to spend my time and money on other events. That's my choice. I may breed her anyway, too. That's my choice also.

Discussing this with you is like talking to a log, except that the log tends not to be contradictory or give erroneous information. I see you're still using the "cold" excuse. Better hold onto that cold for awhile, I think you'll need it.

Barb - when I was showing in western horse events, they did start bringing the heads up but the topline of the neck was to be parallel to the ground, with the front of the nose perpendicular (more or less). I never understood having those horse's noses down near the ground! I had the luck to work with a couple of professionally trained horses that were brought up here, and it was SO enjoyable. There is something to be said for a horse that will jog and lope evenly and casually with reins completely loose. I miss those horses.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Gwinnywillow]

It's not a matter of backing down, I thought a moderator asked us to stop and so I haven't been back to this topic until now.

I didn't look at the links posted - what would be the point? You can find whatever you like online and just because you posted a couple of photos does not mean you know what you're talking about. You're talking about the past, I'm living the present. Whatever you may think of your intimate relationship with the friend with 30 champions, a chow does not need to have a heavy scowl in order to be proper or in order to win. More and more chow people are going to the classic face - scowling but not heavy with pads of flesh and wrinkles. And more and more judges are putting those types up.

By the way, I have five dogs in my avatar.. and three of those are chows. Two of those chows are show quality, have pointed in conformation. I don't waste a lot of time in conformation, however, because to me the true worth of a dog is shown in the intelligence, working ability and companionship the animal offers. I don't keep my dogs in kennels - never have, never will. I will never be one of those breeders who thinks a dog's value is in gaining a conformation championship and then sticking the dog out in a kennel or placing it because the dog no longer has any value to them.

I have no doubt - nor do the conformation chow people who have assessed my dog - that my younger chow could get her championship. But she may not, and that's because I prefer to spend my time and money on other events. That's my choice. I may breed her anyway, too. That's my choice also.

Discussing this with you is like talking to a log, except that the log tends not to be contradictory or give erroneous information. I see you're still using the "cold" excuse. Better hold onto that cold for awhile, I think you'll need it.

Barb - when I was showing in western horse events, they did start bringing the heads up but the topline of the neck was to be parallel to the ground, with the front of the nose perpendicular (more or less). I never understood having those horse's noses down near the ground! I had the luck to work with a couple of professionally trained horses that were brought up here, and it was SO enjoyable. There is something to be said for a horse that will jog and lope evenly and casually with reins completely loose. I miss those horses.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

Hhhhhm, what would be the point of looking at pictures of the two founding studs of the breed? The fact you ask the question is the answer to the question. History? Foundation? You are right. Why waste your time. You would not know what you were looking at.......even those the dogs in those pictures are in your own dogs' background! You miss the whole point of breeding dogs. Perfection needs to be strived for, and looking at the past greats shows what is possible, and gives breeders a goal to strive for. You missed the entire point, but hey.............so what.

And the other point you miss is that ANYTHING can get a championship as long as it does not have any disqualifying faults, the person showing has the time and money, and shows the dog long enough. The number of crummy Chows with Ch. in front of their names proves that. Even platypuses.

And Chows most certainly do lumber when compared to a Dobe, or any other breed with angulation. They may not be supposed to, but there are lots of dogs that aren't supposed to do or have what they actually do do or have.

I assume you do not have any of the Chow books that give examples of how a Chow SHOULD look? Too bad. Your loss. My friend with the champions just had another of her dogs finish within the last year, so not too far into the past. Oh, and believe me, if anyone could have a dog that looked like either of those two pictured, they would sell their kids and their mother to do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But, as you said, talking to logs is futile. And when someone makes such as foolish statement as "that is is in the past, I live in the future".....well, that says it all. You know nothing about the principles of breeding, and I am certainly wasting my time, as well as yours.

So I will bid you adieu (if I can spell it) and go back to tending to my cold.

Oh, and I think Zoom was requesting that we go back to acting like ladies. I care not what you think of me, and I know you feel the same. So.......no big deal! Surely we can remain civilized!!

 

[motherofmany]

One it was figured out that you didn't understand gait, that you didn't know how to describe shoulder angulation, that you didn't know the difference between a level topline and a "table top" topline, that you don't know where the whithers stop and the back begins and where the back stops and the croup begins..... well, there really wasn't much point in discussing things anymore, was there? So, no one was "backing down" we were all just trying to let you quietly go away and save face.

Having bought a nice bitch, then co-owned her as someone else picked good breedings does not an expert make and that has become very obvious.

Hope you feel better soon, and that your personality improves along with your general health.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

To quote gwinnywillow:

"Kinda like the GSD is, but they are overdone and crippled! That is why they have to stand with one leg under them, or else they would collapse. Hind end ain't strong enough to support the weight of the body length!)"

"Shepherds backs are too long, their hips are too messed up, and unless they stand with one hind foot supporting the middle, they would sag. They are deformed. I don't know how many hundreds of Shepherds you have been exposed to, but the facts are the facts. Even the greatest of the Shepherds have ended up horribly crippled. " (I get the impression that you live in your own world of "facts")

"And the thing is, if someone has seen a dog that looks like a shepherd that can stand four square, who is to say that dog is even a purebred Shepherd?"

"Is he supposed to be purebred?????????" (after someone posted a photo of their dog - how rude can you get?)

"The funny thing is that when I first stated about Shepherds needing the leg under them to hold them up, I was being facetious. But not without a lot of truth. Most Shepherds hips are so bad they cannot stand foresquare."

"And should we go into the fact that the majority of Shepherds are flakes?"

"What some don't seem to get is that I am talking about the breed as a whole---not just an individual dog here or there, or someone's pet of unknown origin. "

"I have no problem admitting to I know nothing about Shepherds,"

"In my original statement I was deliberately exaggerating about most GSDs being crippled." (wha..??? You LIED about the GSD being crippled? What happened to "facts are facts"??)

"And in the majority of breeds I know about, the withers are always the highest point of the back!!!!!!! "

" I played with exhibiting, but not seriously." (*gasps* .. the "expert" wasn't even a serious exhibitor??)

"Then there are those breeds that are supposed to have straight fronts like Chows that are supposed to have a "rolling gait"."

"Straight shouldered also, and stilted equates with rolling. Rolling results from rocking side to side, which Chows do. "

"As far as Chows, Alaska Lady, I know more about them then you will live to know." (this one really made me laugh .. given the rest of her "facts" .. *ROTFL*)

"Having been an intimate acquaintance of a dog who was once upon a time the top winning Chow in the country, and an intimate acquaintance of a top breeder, I sure do know Chows and their movement."

"a Chow with proper bone mass will LUMBER across the floor"

"And the standard calls for the Chow to be heavy boned--as heavy boned as possible while maintaining "balance"." (nowhere in the standard does it say this)

"Oh, and any dog is "SHOW QUALITY" if it has 4 legs, a head and a tail, and no disqualifying faults. "

"I am more impressed by someone who has bred over 30 champion Chows" (really funny when you pair it with the next quote .. *L*)
"And the other point you miss is that ANYTHING can get a championship as long as it does not have any disqualifying faults, the person showing has the time and money, and shows the dog long enough"

"I rest my case, and end my participation in this fruitless conversation."
"I have said all I have to say on the matter at hand."
"and I will say nothing further about the breed. " (said seven pages ago)


The reality is that your own words describe very clearly your "expertise" - all the names you throw out there don't make you an expert. I truly have to believe that you don't realize how you're coming across (although I would think that the lack of agreement to your blatantly ridiculous statements would clue you in).

Either that, or you just desperately want attention? And bad attention is better than no attention? *chuckles*

I think most of us have come to a conclusion about you .. *nods*

Enough said? I think so.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska