The American Vet Society of Animal Behavior Speaks out against Milan type trainers

ron

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#81
I think you're misunderstanding the situation. The alpha female was the one who died.

Wolves don't try to "dominate" land, or even other packs (they try to kill them instead), but they certainly try to expand into the best territory. There are certain mechanisms that help packs avoid conflicts (howling and scent-markin


And you must have seen something different than I have. But that's okay. In your description, even the wolves in this incident don't care for the strong domination, correct, hence the wolf civil war, so to speak?

I'm not sure wolves hold elections, either. But it's obvious that they don't like a bully. And it wouldn't matter how much of such behavior we could attribute to the wolf, dogs are not wolves.

Just as you do not assume the peaceful nature of wolves following something akin to Robert's Rules of Order, I don't assume similar behavior is in dogs for the same reason as they are in wolves. For example, face-licking. Usually seen in cubs to stimulate the adult to give forth food. In dogs, it might be seen as an appeasement but it can also be their way of grooming you or expressing affection.

So, how would you explain the origin of this human idea that dogs look at us as other dogs and that we can try and physically dominate them the way we mistakenly think wolves "dominate" each other even though, as your post actually complements mine, that wolves are not, by nature, trying to dominate everything, competition for resources aside? If none of my answers or ideas will do, what are they then? Or is CM an independent Lorenz, so to speak?
 
M

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#82
It's amazing how people are so willing to hack away at CM. Blame the idiot dog owners who have no problem following blindly. The problem lies with the dog owners who just follow one method. I like to gain knowledge from all kinds of resources.
 

Dekka

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#83
It's amazing how people are so willing to hack away at CM. Blame the idiot dog owners who have no problem following blindly. The problem lies with the dog owners who just follow one method. I like to gain knowledge from all kinds of resources.
Oh I do blame dog owners to a point. But its not that I attack CM personally. I attack his methods, training ideology, etc. But its threads like this that help people to find the 'truth'. CM is everywhere. He even has a nintendo DS game, as well as his own bottled water. Many people don't ever hear about the problems until they try it and it doesn't work. And then they think if CM's stuff doesn't work the dog must be really horrid.

Not all dog owners have access to dog training discussions or behavioralists. There are lots of forums out there full of pet owners who think CM is great and that if your dog walks through door before you he is being 'dominant'.
 
M

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#84
I would think that dog owners who have access to the internet and cable tv also have a chance to check out different training methods. Heck, there are several shows on the Animal Planet when it comes to training. Get books, speak to experienced dog owners with different ideas and perspectives. I tell 'ya, there is not one trainer or behaviorist alone that could address all that I have been through with purchased dogs and rescues. It should be a mixed bag of tools and that, one can only find through research.
 

corgipower

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#85
Oh I do blame dog owners to a point.
I don't. dogs are so mainstream that it's easy for people to just go and get one and not do any research, and even when they do try to educate themselves it's very easy for them to find the wrong kind of information and, without anything to discredit it, to believe in it.

I blame the industry for not doing more to reach out to owners and prospective owners. Bad breeders who sell puppies without educating the buyers on what to look for in terms of training and health care, vets who think they know something about dominance :yikes:, trainers who quietly teach classes without any efforts to reach out to the community but only teach those who find them and media outlets like NatGeo who promote methods that are ineffective, dangerous and ill-founded.
 

Lilavati

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#86
I don't. dogs are so mainstream that it's easy for people to just go and get one and not do any research, and even when they do try to educate themselves it's very easy for them to find the wrong kind of information and, without anything to discredit it, to believe in it.

I blame the industry for not doing more to reach out to owners and prospective owners. Bad breeders who sell puppies without educating the buyers on what to look for in terms of training and health care, vets who think they know something about dominance :yikes:, trainers who quietly teach classes without any efforts to reach out to the community but only teach those who find them and media outlets like NatGeo who promote methods that are ineffective, dangerous and ill-founded.
I don't think its a matter of blame, unless we are talking about the sort of training techniques that boggle common sense, which is not what CM does. I don't blame owners, and I don't even really blame CM. What he's doing is relatively traditional, indeed, more moderate that most traditional training. Its outdated, and there are vast improvements out there, and he should really look into them, but nothing I've seen him do has shocked me. You can train a dog that way. It "works" in the sense of stopping your average dog from being out of control. In the hands of someone who knows what they are doing, it works pretty well. He's become fameous and wealthy training dogs that way, and I don't expect him to stop. I'm sure he thinks that what he's doing is just fine, and if you'd asked people 30 years ago, they would have seen him as cutting edge. That might not be an excuse, but its completely understandable.

That said, there are MUCH better, much safer ways to do things. Moreover, they are ways that will do a lot less damage in hands of your average never-owned-a-dog-before person, and are more humane. But I don't think its a matter of blame. Its a matter of education and evolution. Now that more and more people are speaking out, it seems likely that other methods will begin to gain ground. Just keep in mind that there are people who still beat their dogs and rub their noses in messes to train them, out of sheer ignorance. Against that, or against total cluelessness, CM is a distinct improvement. (I'd even say he's an improvement over those nits who beg their dogs to do things "sit sweetie, please? sit, sweetie? for Mommy?" or maybe its just that those people drive me nuts)

I have warned multiple people off CM and will continue to do so, just as I will continue to give people lists of good training books and offer what advice on positive methods I can. But I don't think its a matter of blame. I'm pretty sure CM believes what he is saying, and that he authentically loves dogs and wants to see people succeed. His methods are unfounded and outdated, and dangerous in the wrong hands. But I've seen much, much worse, and I'd rather see CM out there than totally untrained dogs dumped at the pound because their owners can't stand them any more. The real trick is to show people that there are much, much better ways to do things than CM, and to get them to understand ideas that are more complex than "dominance," and, moreover, to get them to understand that these ways are easier! Not sure how you do that except for more television shows though.

And a comment on bad advice: tragically, there is not only bad advice from CM (and worse advice from others) out there, but there is also bad positive reinforcement advice out there which is enough to put people off the method all together. I've read enough new-agey, lovey-dovey, flaky "positive training" crap to ruin twenty dogs. Its not that postive reinforcement isn't the way to go . . . its that there's a lot of poorly written stuff out there that basically doesn't tell you what to do if your dog doesn't do what the book says they should. Moreover, its so determined to get away from CM type techniques that you get the "never say no" philosophy, which isn't much help when the dog is chasing the cat up the bookshelves. This sort of thing is enough to drive people back to CM, which is a real shame.
 

sprintime

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#87
I find CM too arrogant to watch so he doesn't get my vote. Our vets or trainers don't endorse him either so that says it all.
 
R

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#88
I have a couple of dogs here who would not take kindly to having fingers jabbed at them, or being hissed at.

As one of my friends, says, "You better be ready".
 

corgipower

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#89
I have a couple of dogs here who would not take kindly to having fingers jabbed at them, or being hissed at.
The only dog of mine who would allow it is Morgan...She would think it was a new game and she'd get completely revved up playing with ya ~ Corgi-gator :p. The others have no problem with the idea of defending themselves.
 
M

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#90
I have a couple of dogs here who would not take kindly to having fingers jabbed at them, or being hissed at.

As one of my friends, says, "You better be ready".

Beautiful.......one must make sure to keep up the bad rep of a dog, such as yours......

I own GSDs ......should people be aware????
 

Zoom

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#91
Uh yes. You own a breed that is not going to loll it's tongue at you and go "let's play!" if you jab it in the neck. You own a breed that is noted for it's guarding instincts, high drive and lack of tolerance for stupid crap like the above. You do not have a Lab and you should not expect a sharper breed like a Rott or a GSD to put with stuff that a Golden or Lab wouldn't bat an eye at.

Red has done more to promote a positive image of her breed than most people would ever dream of doing. In fact, her girl Penny has actually been awarded the Breed Ambassador medal. What have you done to dispel your breed's bad rep?
 
R

RedyreRottweilers

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#92
Beautiful.......one must make sure to keep up the bad rep of a dog, such as yours......

I own GSDs ......should people be aware????
My dogs are all friendly and quite sociable with friendly people.

All of my dogs hold multiple titles both in the obedience and conformation rings except for the 2 youngest who are 16 months old.

My dogs are visible in the public eye in my community on a regular basis. We visit numerous businesses, and I am actively involved in pet therapy in several towns.

My dogs have been featured in the local newspapers more than once.

I do not feel that what I stated is anything except the truth about my dogs. It pays to know and understand what one is dealing with. I have at least 2 adult Rottweilers who would make it known to you that your behavior was beyond polite if they were approached in the insolent, arrogant and confrontational manner of Ceaser Milan by a complete stranger.







 

Doberluv

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#94
Beautiful.......one must make sure to keep up the bad rep of a dog, such as yours......

I own GSDs ......should people be aware????


Yes you should be aware. Dogs not only come in various breeds with certain tendencies toward traits, but dogs are also individuals. And lest we forget, dogs are animals. If any animal feels threatened, they may react in different ways. Some will back down, shut down and try to escape. Some will feel that if they can't escape when they're being attacked, they'll defend themselves. And a few dogs will not be adversely affected and would look like, what in the world is that suppose to mean?

I have two Chihuahuas, that while well socialized and confident and friendly with people are soft and very sensitive. If CM went after them, jabbing them in the neck or hissed, stomped his feet forward toward them like he does, they'd cower and crouch down on the floor and probably forever distrust strangers. If he did those things to my now departed Doberman, he may have tolerated very little of that and threatened back before going after whatever body part was at eye level, if you know what I mean. And he was extremely well socialized and quite tolerant of dumb things people did to dogs. He had a lower tolerance than say, my Lab would have had. She'd probably just look like, "Huh?" No, some of that stuff CM does is asking way too much of an animal.

You can have a good ambassador of the breed to dispell rumors, but you can't take years of genetic selective breeding out of a dog. If a dog is bred to defend himself or those he's in charge of, he isn't going to sit back and let some moron poke his fingers at his neck for very long and use body language that looks like an attack. And niether will a lot of other dogs because they're animals. I saw CM get bitten on his show on 3 different episodes, all while doing alpha rolls, forcing a terrified Golden Retriever to have his nails cut....all in a threatening, "I'm the pack leader" attitude. He got it 3 times from that dog. How's that for dispelling myths? :(
 

Doberluv

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#95
I missed your posts there Red. Beautiful is right!!!! No one in their right mind can come on here and imply that you are "keeping up the bad rep of dogs such as yours." Incredibly ignorant and insulting.

My Doberman was a good ambassador to the breed as well, fantastic with friendly strangers. I was very proud of him and his behavior. But there's no way I'd expect him to sit back and tolerate all the intimidating, threatening, attacking things CM does to dogs. It would be incorrect temperament in a Doberman to let some stranger threaten him or me with physical strikes, (that's what those finger jabs are like....striking or stomping forward suddenly and hissing.)
 
M

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#97
Folks, I grew up with GSDs, and my sister and I never feared our dogs, our neighbors and our friends never feared our dogs.....funny how things have changed.
It all boils down to how an animal was brought up and how it was treated.

When it comes to CM it all looks bad, but, he really walks into a bad situation where the animal has been looked at by many trainers and behaviorists in most cases, and nothing has worked. I am not saying one should apply his methods just for fun, but when all has failed.......who knows......
 

elegy

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#98
Folks, I grew up with GSDs, and my sister and I never feared our dogs, our neighbors and our friends never feared our dogs.....funny how things have changed.
It all boils down to how an animal was brought up and how it was treated.
it's not about fear, it's about respect.

When it comes to CM it all looks bad, but, he really walks into a bad situation where the animal has been looked at by many trainers and behaviorists in most cases, and nothing has worked. I am not saying one should apply his methods just for fun, but when all has failed.......who knows......
i always wonder what "nothing" entailed. and i always wonder who those trainers and behaviorists are, and whether a veterinary behaviorist has been included in the group.
 
M

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#99
it's not about fear, it's about respect.



i always wonder what "nothing" entailed. and i always wonder who those trainers and behaviorists are, and whether a veterinary behaviorist has been included in the group.
You are absolutely right. My father taught us to respect our dogs and we did. He also taught us that our dogs would be our protectors, by golly, I felt save wherever I went with one of our dogs........but, this crazy fear and reputation of dogs is just silly......just like the bad reputation of pitties....

Vets in most cases don't have a clue when it comes to nutrition and behavior......unless trained and taught.
 
M

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Uh yes. You own a breed that is not going to loll it's tongue at you and go "let's play!" if you jab it in the neck. You own a breed that is noted for it's guarding instincts, high drive and lack of tolerance for stupid crap like the above. You do not have a Lab and you should not expect a sharper breed like a Rott or a GSD to put with stuff that a Golden or Lab wouldn't bat an eye at.

Red has done more to promote a positive image of her breed than most people would ever dream of doing. In fact, her girl Penny has actually been awarded the Breed Ambassador medal. What have you done to dispel your breed's bad rep?

I rescue......but, that might not be enough for folks like you.....

No titles here, I am not interested in that, I much prefer to adopt out a dog that will be a "Good Ambassador" representing it's breed.......
 

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