Did you read the article that Carrie posted about the controversy about dogs even evolving from wolves? That is significant.. as if dogs are not based on wolves then looking at wolves as a model for dog is even more erroneous.
Yes I did. It is pretty good, but again whomever wrote it left some stuff out so they could make their case or point seem stronger. Nothing was "new" in it, i've read those arguements before. but i'm not arguing for the case of dogs being the same as or descended from wolves. I have no idea where they came from. I lean towards they did descend from something very similiar to a wolf and maybe have some wolf stuff mixed in. It's fascinating to read about, but doesn't change what I have in front of me to work with today.
There are some very interesting points made about dogs not willingly interbreeding with wild wolves. And this is true. Around here feral dogs don't take up with wolf packs. Which if their innate social structure was the same you would expect some of the feral dogs to pack up with wolves (as there are lots of wolves just south of here) but they don't. The wolves kill the dogs.
That depends on how far back in the evolutionary chain they're removed from each other. and besides it doesn't "prove" anything. Subspecies of tigers don't breed with each other in the wild often either, but dilution of their genetic profile has occured. Mostly because of breeding in captivity and releasing them into the wild. I'm not saying tigers have anything to do with dogs, but lots of species or subspecies can produce viable offspring, but they don't readily mate in the wild, it's not really earth shattering news.
Look at what we have done to prey drive with selective breeding!!! With herding dogs it is truncated, with some toy breeds its all but removed. The very wolf trait of being neophobic has been bred out of all but the most diligent of guarding breeds. Etc etc.
why just herding dogs, its truncated in almost all dogs, pointers point because of it, herders herd because of it, retrievers retrieve instead of tearing the prey open and eating it because of the truncated prey sequence. They do it because we bred them that way, it proves nothing, but human internention has changed things. Feral dogs don't have a truncated prey response, they can stalk chanse, kill and rip open and eat, they also scavange, eat garbage vegetation and other stuff. yeah, wolves and dogs are different, but they are also very much a like. I have no doubt they have taken very different evolutionary paths, but they have also remained very close in many traits behavioraly, physically, genetically, etc. Why should we have to ignore those things they have in common?
Dogs don't treat people like other dogs.
oh, I disagree again. Of course they do. they nip, they play bow, they growl, the mouth, they bite, they do everything they know how to do as dogs to communicate with other dogs until we teach them otherwise.
I've seen a couple strong working dogs go pee on a weak decoy. I've seen strong dogs attack their handler because he was the guy on the ground getting beat up. A very instinctual reaction for dogs to attack the dog or animal that is down. My dogs run to great me with ears back and tongues licking away. How do you think so many people can so easily teach their dog to "give them kisses"????? I've seen pics of dogs pushing their heads and upper bodies into babies on the ground, not a good thing BTW. My dogs still play bow to me and each other every single day. I've seen dogs step in between two of their favorite humans when they're fighting. A dogs way of saying to cool down. I've seen dogs treat so many humans like other dogs its rediculous.
They innately know I am not a horse, and don't react to me like I am a horse
Of course to assume this would be to totally ignore that when an animal is born they associate very closesly, often times to the point of a duck thinking its a dog or vice versa, when they are exposed to another species from a very young age. Our dogs are in human contact from the second they are born, i'm quite sure they view us as more of them than some people would think. Animals that dont' have that contact and those windows close will see things as foreing and something to be feared. That is normal in the development of almost every single animal on this earth.
What I see in the family dogs that I have is that the hierarchy shifts and changes from day to day.
Yeah, it does change somewhat in mine too, but the absolute structure, when push comes to shove, doesn't change much. But it doesn't need to, they communicate effectively.
I know that they couldn't careless about who goes in or out of a door, that possession is the law, if one has something the others don't take it but wait until the first dog is done with it (this includes raw bones etc)
Mine all try to be the first out, when I let them, sometimes its one at a time. But if a lower one has something the higher one wants, she just goes and takes it and there is no squabelling. sometimes the other one will follow her and lay down with her and put their paws on hers as she chews on it and stare at her with their head between their paws. They just sit there content as can be. When the higher up,and I will callher the alpha is done or has had enough, she gives it up, if she doesn't want the yearning eyes in her face, she lets them know, if she doesn't care at that particular time, she does nothing. I love watching my dogs interact.
If there's likely to be more than a lip curl or growl I keep them separated
I have to do that as well with 2 of them, they've given each other huge gashes before, just one time and if anything after that, things have become a much more clear heirarchy. No problems in a long time, but I wish I could be more like adjorts, but I get nervous about vet bills again.
At any rate, these squabbles over possessions, who wins, who loses isn't indicitive of hierarchy or even dominance. It's too fluid and inconsistent with dogs.
I agree and disagree. It is very fluid, but I don't think it is inconsistent. Not with mine. For everyday stuff, things change all the time, kind of, but I can tell when things are no longer happy go lucky can't we all just get a long. When its time or that alpha wants something, either for them to back off, or give something up or anything, they get it every single time. Now my alpha bitch will give up everything she has at certain points to other dogs, but when she wants it, its hers, no questions asked.
i've seen other groups of dogs, with friends just others with casual observations that exhibit almost no behaviors like my dogs do, some are a lot more subtle, some just don't have any of those same desires that mine do. It doesn't mean they don't have those tools, they just don't have the same drive to act with them like other dogs do. I really see the differences in working dogs in terms of "pack" behaviors than I do over companion dogs, generally speaking because there are always exceptions.
