think its easy for som' people to see a "pack structure" when they have a group of dogs that don't get along all the time.
but mine do get along, and I can still see the heirarchy. Why is that so hard to believe. There were a few others on here that as far as I can tell know their dogs pretty well and can see the same thing. When I can read my dog and see that she really wants something and she just goes over and takes it from the others, whenever she wants with no bickering or fighting or squabbeling, what would you call it? She can give it up, let somebody else have it or care less about it as well, but as i've said time and time again, when I can tell she wants it, she gets it, no questions asked from any animal in the house, but me. WHy is that?
all these dominate rituals were true, my cat, Twitchy, is higher up on the rungs than most of the dogs.
It could very well be possible
BUT if dogs were pack animals ALL people with groups of dogs would see clear hierarchy and would have dogs who would live voluntarily in a pack
why would that be? Most people I know don't have a clue what they're seeing in a dog no matter how many they own. Lots of owners I see are just "lucky" their dogs get along or they are "unlucky" that they don't. They can't see or decipher any of the everyday interactions that are happening all the time.
There is a wide range of behaviors in dogs. I've spent time in SA where dogs run free everywhere. Some roam in little packs, some don't. Some will seek out human companionship, some don't. They come in all shapes and sizes, but just because it is not clearly evident by all people in all dogs doesn't mean it isn't there. Because I have seen clear examples where it is.
and not all dogs have the same pack tendencies, lots of companion dogs are bred for middle of the road stuff, it suits them better as family dogs. With most dogs, field labs, working GSD's, mals, sled dogs, etc. The dogs that are still bred with more drive and intensity to do stuff seem to have a lot more pack type behaviors than those that don't. Why is that?
I guess there really aren't any "pack" animals then because wolves can go out on their own, especially when they don't need to be together for food, which is a big reason why our companion dogs probably don't "willingly" join up in packs at every oppourtunity, they don't have to, unless we make them live together.
This is totally out of curiosity, but in your opinion would your dog's retain the same cohesive structure if you were out of the picture? Would they have formed it in the first place without your guidance?
I don't know. I doubt it. They wouldn't have to, they could probably scavange and stuff on their own. I think they'd stick together for a while though, but if all humans were gone, I think they probably would stick together, at least most of them.
I don't think they would have formed this without me either, but again because they wouldn't have to. Most dogs are split from the families at 8 weeks of age and shipped off to other places and forced to live with other animals and humans that take care of their needs. But they have to form one with me because that is how we live, and they are more than capable. I guess if I and everyone else was gone and they had to work together to survive, my money is that they would most certainly pack up, readily and effectively.
Is it always consistent though?
In a lot of ways no, does my alpha bitch always get the toy, does she always go first, does she always get fed first, does she always keep the bone, No. She lays on her back and plays around and rolls, and will give up toys when she's done with them, and let every animal in the house eat out of her dish when I'm around. but it is consistent always, and that when she wants the toy, or she wants something to stop, she gets her way always. There is no fight, it just happens. What would you call that?
German Shepherd
Wouldn't that be pure prey drive? I guess I don't understand how that is a type of social behavior.
a pack will instinctively go for the animal on the ground, even within packs, when a dog or wolf or whatever goes down, the rest jump on that animal. It's instinct. That isn't the only explanation for this behavior, but this a whole other discussion on its own.
And it has been proven to be an innaccurate behavioral model for training dogs. That is what people have an issue with.
I have that issue with it to, that people have bastardized the theory to rationalize some pretty stupid training, but that doesn't mean I ignore what's in front of me either.