Some Pit Education

[elegy]

What I was trying to say is that through socialization you can take a dog that would be born with DA tendencies to be/act dominant. Once a dog becomes an adult and has learn that acting aggressively is the way to go, then your right...there is much you can do but train them to not to act out.

you cannot socialize dog aggression out of a dog whose genetics say be dog aggressive. you cannot. and the more people who cling to this, the more of these dog-aggro dogs are going to get in trouble. you can certainly stack the deck in your favor, you can help the dog come down on the less dog-aggro end of the spectrum that it's genetics proscribe, but you're not going to make it non-aggressive.

and dog-aggression and dominance are not related. i have one very pushy dominant bitchy dog (with dogs, not people) who is dog-aggro and one very soft, non-pushy, non-dominant dog who is dog-aggro.

 

[Roxy's CD]

Elegy, you own two DA dogs. But you've stated they behave "famously" together when your around.

I'm not sure, but I think that's what Amstaffer meant. With work, and socialization, you can train and condition a DA dog to behave otherwise AT LEAST while in your presence.

And depending on the severity, I do believe you can 100% curb some DA behaviours if worked on at a young age. Of course there are uncountable cases where you cannot, but there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Learned behaviours, DA can become a LEARNED behaviour. Not neccessarily an instinctive behaviour. As Doberluv's theory implies, if the dog can get it's way by being DA than why not? If it gets a "punishment" for acting this way, than not showing those behaviours would be in it's best interests.

Stay on top of it, and you can slowly and gradually rid the dog of those aggressive behaviours. Until the DA behaviours cease and the good ones become a learned behaviour.

 

[elegy]

Elegy, you own two DA dogs. But you've stated they behave "famously" together when your around.

I'm not sure, but I think that's what Amstaffer meant. With work, and socialization, you can train and condition a DA dog to behave otherwise AT LEAST while in your presence.

And depending on the severity, I do believe you can 100% curb some DA behaviours if worked on at a young age. Of course there are uncountable cases where you cannot, but there are ALWAYS exceptions.

Learned behaviours, DA can become a LEARNED behaviour. Not neccessarily an instinctive behaviour. As Doberluv's theory implies, if the dog can get it's way by being DA than why not? If it gets a "punishment" for acting this way, than not showing those behaviours would be in it's best interests.

Stay on top of it, and you can slowly and gradually rid the dog of those aggressive behaviours. Until the DA behaviours cease and the good ones become a learned behaviour.

yes, they do get along fantastically most of the time but that is nothing i taught them or trained them to do. i would never have brought mushroom home if it had not looked like they were going to get along well. i supervise and i separate them when i'm not here, i train them, i insist upon being respected, and 99% of the time all is well. but i know if the right set of circumstances hit (mushroom gets guardy and snarfs at luce and i'm not right there to stop it where it starts) that they'd fight and seriously injure if not kill each other.

you can curb dog-aggressive BEHAVIORS at any age. luce is nowhere near the level of dramatics and embarrassment that she was when i got her (she was maybe a year old). she used to carry on to the point of vomiting. now she has her CGC, we go to dog events, we participate in rally matches, and she's generally trustworthy on a leash as long as another female dog doesn't get up in her face. but i'd never ever ever trust her unsupervised with another dog and i'd never ever ever trust her running free somewhere with other dogs that she hasn't been slowly and carefully introduced to.

and fwiw, punishment did nothing to curb her behaviors. teaching her the correct response, teaching her attention when asked, and rewarding calmness and lack of hysterics got us to where we are today.

 

[dr2little]

yes,,, what happens through generations of socialization,,,, it will lose the dog agression but in a few generations of no use,,,things behavior changes through generations with socializing with ppl,,,

I agree, just like it only takes a few generations of dogs left to their own devices to become not longer domesticated....it's quite amazing really.

 

[Roxy's CD]

You pulled a good point out elegy, that I hadn't even realized I had typed, and your right. BEHAVIOURS. I will NEVER truly trust Roxy with people, because she IS and has been human aggressive. No matter how much I curb those behaviours, I will always EXPECT them.

Same with DA. You can curb those behaviours, possibly even get rid of them completely, but that doesn't mean the dog is cured of dog on dog aggression and that you will never see those behaviours again.

 

[SisMorphine]

You pulled a good point out elegy, that I hadn't even realized I had typed, and your right. BEHAVIOURS. I will NEVER truly trust Roxy with people, because she IS and has been human aggressive. No matter how much I curb those behaviours, I will always EXPECT them.

Same with DA. You can curb those behaviours, possibly even get rid of them completely, but that doesn't mean the dog is cured of dog on dog aggression and that you will never see those behaviours again.

Yup and that's why you can "manage" dog aggression but you can't "train it out" as some people seem to think.

 

[Miakoda]

Yup and that's why you can "manage" dog aggression but you can't "train it out" as some people seem to think.

Correct.

And I've never once stated that I don't believe in working with dogs. Sukari, one of my bitchiest dogs towards other dogs, has her CGC & TT. It took work, but she will leave another dog alone....until it looks at her wrong or God forbid, invades "her" space. But yet she's manageable enough to have passed those tests. I think it's great that people want to work on those dogs with DA to make them more manageable & good members of society. But I'm not gonna love my little boy who does nothing but whine & try to get at other dogs any less b/c he can't get it through his thick skull that the other dog doesn't want any of him. I'm not going to euthanize him b/c of it. I love both dogs equally. The difference is I won't take him into Petsmart where owners let their Yorkiepoos romp around on 20ft retractable leashes. It's not worth it. But he's more than happy to have 1-on-1 time with me & my husband whether it be walking, joggins, training, doing catch work, etc. He doesn't seem any worse for wear not being able to be a part of a dog pack.

 

[Red Chrome]

I know it can be managed but definetely NOT trained out of them. Red is extremely DA and will not hesitate if confronted, However, through LOTS of proper training, she can do a down stay and anothe rdog can approach her, sniff her etc. She bristles up but does not move because she has been trained.

She has her CGC, TT and 2 legs of a CD. We're working on a BH title in Schutzhund.

I agree with Mia. IF other dog owners were more respnsible about leashing, there wouldn't be near the problems, and the tired saying of "OH, they're friendly." makes me sick.

We as Pit Bull owners have to be 1000x more responsible than those that own other breeds because of the stigma they have. The fact that other breed owners aren't as responsible about leashign at the park because they have a lab or golden, both breeds of which I have been bitten by.

 

[LinkLinx]

Can someone write a quick summary of this thread for the newcomers who can't read through 60+ pages? LOL

I've only read a few pages. Firstly, I'll say that the dog posted on the first page is gorgeous.

I have Staffordshire Bull Terriers. I don't chain. It's a personal thing. I never have and I never will. I use invisible fencing, and have never had any problems with it, so I see no reason to move to any other means of confinement when what I have is working perfectly for me.

Also, my dogs are DA only with dogs they aren't properly introduced to. So far I've never had any problems with them, but that doesn't mean I won't. Owners of DA breeds/dogs really should know how to handle this trait better. But instead, many people badmouth them for ownining a dog like that, or even keeping it alive.

Many people are afraid of my dogs, who knows why. They think my dogs will pick a fight with theirs, which has never been the case in the past. They've only growled, low almost warning growls it seems. They've never lunged or even barked really, but they definitely don't go up and greet, as if they are completely comfortable with a strange dog in their presence. And really, why should they? I don't except them to accept every single dog they meet..shoot I dislike many people I meet with just a few words from them!

 

[Gas House]

Well, to say that you began to breed for something different than what the dog was bred for for the last hundred + years and saying that would not change the dog is crazy.

 

[Amstaffer]

Influence when young, yes, change, no.

If you influence something it is a form of change.....

It sounds like you had a class on dog behavior and I have not. However I have had lots of experience with dogs expecially Rotts and Bullies and my experience is that you can take dogs (if young enough) and change them!

 

[jess2416]

you might can change their behavior but their temperment will always be there, regardless of what you do to control their behaviors IMO.

 

[Amstaffer]

you cannot socialize dog aggression out of a dog whose genetics say be dog aggressive. you cannot. and the more people who cling to this, the more of these dog-aggro dogs are going to get in trouble. you can certainly stack the deck in your favor, you can help the dog come down on the less dog-aggro end of the spectrum that it's genetics proscribe, but you're not going to make it non-aggressive.

and dog-aggression and dominance are not related. i have one very pushy dominant bitchy dog (with dogs, not people) who is dog-aggro and one very soft, non-pushy, non-dominant dog who is dog-aggro.

I disagree and I have seen evidence in my life to prove otherwise.

 

[Roxy's CD]

Jess, I think that's what I meant. Ha ha.

I agree. *nods head*

Hence why, IMO if a dog ever showed DA, you should always remember and act accordingly. Work to change those behaviours to the best of your ability. But never forget.

 

[2nd2none]

Yup and that's why you can "manage" dog aggression but you can't "train it out" as some people seem to think.

I agree with this statement. Certain traits/behaviors can be controlled, but that doesn't mean they're nonexistant. IMO, especially with the APBT, dog aggression remains "just below the surface", and you should be prepared, as such, as an owner.
..."just in case"...:yikes:

 

[Red Chrome]

You can NOT change genetics. No matter how much behaviour modification you do, the DA will still be there, controlled but definetely still there. Hopefully people recognize this and act as such and do not take their pit bulls to dog parks, IF you wanted a dog friendly dog get a golden, lab etc.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

I agree with this statement. Certain traits/behaviors can be controlled, but that doesn't mean they're nonexistant. IMO, especially with the APBT, dog aggression remains "just below the surface", and you should be prepared, as such, as an owner.
..."just in case"...:yikes:

I agree. But with the proper training you can control it. Thats not to say the dog will be so nice when you are not around though.

 

[Cheetah]

How about with dogs that were not dog aggressive to begin with, until stupid family members took them into their care for a long period of time and screwed them up (something I went through)? Of course this isn't a pit, but it sounds like we're talking general dogs in this instance? >o.o<

Hopefully people recognize this and act as such and do not take their pit bulls to dog parks

People do that periodically at the dog park closest to me... they bring the pit in on a leash, and of course, as many peoples' dogs there are not trained to NOT run up and get into other dogs' faces, that exactly what happens, and the dog freaks out and is obviously NOT having a fun time at the dog park... People are dumb lol...

 

[SisMorphine]

If you influence something it is a form of change.....

It sounds like you had a class on dog behavior and I have not. However I have had lots of experience with dogs expecially Rotts and Bullies and my experience is that you can take dogs (if young enough) and change them!

Yes, I took a class. I've taken a bunch of classes in fact. I also apprentice with a trainer who specializes in Rotties and train with a trainer who specializes in APBTs. I'm not just throwing back something I read in some book somewhere, I am putting forth knowledge that I have aquired through both of these trainers, personal experience with pit bull type dogs, and *gasp* even class and seminars.

If a dog with dog aggression can have that aggression "socialized out of it" then I would hazard a guess that the dog aggression you were seeing was actually fear based (behavior) and not the dog aggression that is bred (temperment). Plenty of dogs have fear based dog aggression. Many of the Greyhounds in my group have it because they don't understand dogs other than Greyhounds so if it's not a Grey they want it dead. But that is something that can be worked on and can be trained out with hard work. But a truly DA pit bull can only be managed.

 

[jess2416]

If you influence something it is a form of change.....

It sounds like you had a class on dog behavior and I have not. However I have had lots of experience with dogs expecially Rotts and Bullies and my experience is that you can take dogs (if young enough) and change them!

IMO influence is NOT a form of change it's a form of modification...

because you can modify behaviors but NOT temperment