Some Pit Education

[Renee750il]

karen delise tells a lovely little story in her fatal dog attacks book about how after diane whipple was attacked and killed by two presa canarios and the media finally clarified that they were presas, *not* pit bulls, many of the presa breeders started getting phone calls from people looking to buy "the kind of dog that killed that lady in california".

The real kicker is that they were NOT pure-bred Presas. They were crosses, bred and conditioned to be hyper-aggressive. Again, the problem isn't the dogs - it's the human factor

 

[Amstaffer]

Amstaffer:[/B]

Because some areas are backward and ignorant...They lack the cultural development to have empathy to other beings.
Of course that’s it couldn’t be ones perspective on what is cruelty and not? After all we know every person in such organizations or humane groups view everything in the same light.

There are personal views in this world but you must admit there are absolutes in this world! Somethings can be discussed and agreed on as wrong. I honestly believe that people that for example: Chain up 10 dogs outside and give them little human interaction must know it there hearts that they are doing something wrong. A person should not have more dogs than they can make and maintain a close emotional bond with. My rule of thumb, if I can't fit another dog in my bed...I can't get another dog.

Are they changing or evolving to a higher state?
That would be dependant on ones view of it I suppose?
Again I actually believe there are right and wrong in the world not just all ambitious PC gray area.

Well actually in Europe (some countries) and in Oregon that is now the case...another case of evolving. Why not allow a person who is dying to go with dignity just like we do to our dying and suffering dogs..
Well we don’t reside in Europe and in Oregon don’t believe anyone has ever received such treatment!

Well you don't believe...its not about your beliefs, it is a fact that Euthanaisa is real..sorry.

Is “dignity” what you tell yourself to get over the fact you intentionally killed that so-called “family member”, not only that but has a stranger willingly do it for you?

If I was dying and suffering or injuried in a way that left me completely crippled (eg quadriplegic) I would hope to God someone would have the mercy to give me peace.

Ah so your reason for supporting abuse you find ok is say "well tommy breaks the rules so why can't I break the rules?"
Please show me anywhere on the internet I supported abuse or used what others do/did to justify my own actions? I not once said anything other than people should be more concerned about what happens in their own yard and household and less about what their neighbor, someone down the block or in another state is doing or how they’re treating their animals. Ironic how we had much less problems in all regards to our animals before the busy bodies started concerning themselves and elevating the status of an animal. Equally odd how those same “enlightened ones” tend to be the less educated on the so-called animals their saving.

What I was referring to was you saying that people who have fat dogs or who are not mental simulated because they are just pets are abusing dogs, so that is ok for people to chain up large amounts of dogs outside and neglect them (emotional).

Why is DA such important part of the breed for so many of you?
It’s not that it’s important what is though is all the traits that make up the breed. Breeding is not as simplistic as being about to just say, “Well I don’t want “X” trait but I want to retain or improve all the others this breed has”! Sure someone can take dog aggression out of the breed…what other traits will be lost in that process and other negative ones added in the process?

DA is out dated and clearly has no value in society today. It is atleast as bad as a genetic disease. Many Pit Bulls have HD but we breed to eliminate that...right? Why can't breeders of Pit Bulls slowly weed out dog aggression and keep all the other great traits? Pit Bulls don't need to be DA to be Pit Bulls. Both my dogs are just fine without it. They have all the other traits and are wonderful dogs. I truely feel that people who insist on keeping dog aggression have a dubious agenda.


It’s apparent that the chaining issues is not one of cruelty

It is only apparent to you and your supporters because you do it and refuse to admit it is wrong. That is not apparent it is a rationalization.



. Amazing how those same pet owners complaining about how cruel this or that is never once look in the mirror and see how they and others like them are the number one problem in all working breeds! Until the pet owners and strictly conformation breeders got their hands on any working breed the dogs where healthier, more stable, didn’t have problems with running the streets, attacking people, etc.

You are again saying "because tommy breaks the rules, I can break the rules or my behavior is "as" wrong or even bad" This is bad logic. Your actions stand a lone to be judge by themselves.


Seems odd how dogs in pet homes tend to be the over weight ones, problem ones, those seen negatively on the media, etc. For all the enlightened pet owners that believe a dog is only happy if in a house. Please explain why the over whelming major of any of the great working dogs of any breed always tend to be those kept outdoors?
I this is not a fact. This is your opinion base on your experience the vast major of the working dogs I know. Live in the house with their owner.






To those that constantly claim and attempt to use “weight” as a reason it’s so cruel for the dogs. Please explain how it’s so heavy like you constantly claim as I’ve already shown based on my own clothing weight and dogs chain weight how I carry 237 times what the dog is. Either; start providing something other than an uneducated opinion to back up your claims and going to extremes or shut up and possibly open you mind so that you may possibly learn something!

I don't know what kind of clothes that you where that is 237 times heavier that a heavy chain that some people use on dogs. Also is all the weight of the close evenly distributed over your body or is it strapped across your neck (usually 2 to 3 vertrbra)

My reponses are in Red bold.........

 

[SisMorphine]

The real kicker is that they were NOT pure-bred Presas. They were crosses, bred and conditioned to be hyper-aggressive. Again, the problem isn't the dogs - it's the human factor

Exactly. And though I understand people and their want for a dog to protect them, when you have a naturally protective breed like a Presa you should be focussing more on socialization than making it aggressive. Because even the most social protective breed dog will protect it's owner.

One day I'll have a Presa. I LOVE them. One of my club member has this big old male, he's 12 I think, that I just want to snuggle day in and day out. He's dopey and friendly, but you'd better believe he'd protect his momma or his little boy if necessary (he is also protection trained, which is NOT aggression training . . . at least not at the club I'm at).

 

[Amstaffer]

A truly dominant alpha dog and a dog aggressive dog are two COMPLETELY different things. You can't turn dog aggression into dominance. Dog aggression is dog aggression. It can be managed to a certain extend, but cannot be trained out of a dog or turned into something else.
finish it, but that's not dog aggression, that's simply canine communication.

What I was trying to say is that through socialization you can take a dog that would be born with DA tendencies to be/act dominant. Once a dog becomes an adult and has learn that acting aggressively is the way to go, then your right...there is much you can do but train them to not to act out.

 

[Amstaffer]

They have been trying to for decades. Has it worked? Not really. ?

We'll the Amstaff has been its own breed for about 70 years and yes it has worked. The average Amstaff is more stable and less DA that the average APBT. However I think one of the problems is people have intermingled the two (thanks to the UKC).

It can be done.

 

[adoptashelterpettoday]

Anyone who fights their dog doesnt love it. Who would allow their dogs to be scared up and possibly die just for some money? I know I sure wouldnt with mine. The dog fighters IMO are part of the reason the breed get such a bad rap. I have been told by my local shelter's manager that one of his ACO's was bitten by a pit yesterday and our city might soon consider BSL. Sickening to me because I love pits & they already have it really hard at the shelter.

You can say all you want that it is a sport but it is a discusting sport of animals killing each other so people can make money. Anyone who participates in any way with dog/cock/or any other animal fighting I know will get what is comming to them.

I will say too that I am against cropping/docking tails & ears. I have a pit foster now with cropped ears. The day before I read this thread (or some of it, too long to read it all), I was thinking to myself that I wish whoever had him before would have left his ears natural (he actually looks almost identical like your black dog Amstaffer). A lot of people think that pits with cropped ears are "scary" as well just because of the way they look. It's stupid but true.

 

[molena]

I am wondering about responses to Mia's question about Great Pyrenees and other livestock guardian dogs. I tried to adopt a beautiful young GP female from a rescue a few years ago to keep my male company out with my 12 Angora goats. The rescue would not think of it because she would be sleeping in the barn, not the house. Instead she was adopted to a man in a small condo in the city. So a huge dog like that, bred to work, is better off in a shoebox than being outdoors doing what she was bred to do?

have we not gone a little nuts here with the dogs-must-sleep-in-the-bed mentality?

 

[SisMorphine]

What I was trying to say is that through socialization you can take a dog that would be born with DA tendencies to be/act dominant. Once a dog becomes an adult and has learn that acting aggressively is the way to go, then your right...there is much you can do but train them to not to act out.

But the problem is that dominance (just has some dog aggression, especially in APBTS) is a temperment NOT a behavior. Behaviors are something that you can work on throughout a dog's life. Though obviously if the behavior has been going on for years it will be harder to train out. But a dog's temperment is set in stone.

There are 7 different elements that go into a dog's temperment. 6 of those happen either in the womb or while nursing and spending time with mom and pups (I don't have my notebook on me that has them listed since I'm moving and it's packed, if I can find it I'll let you know). The last one happens only up until 12 weeks (16 depending on who you talk to) and can be molded by human interaction. So we only have control over 1 of 7 things. A dog is born with it's level of dominance/submission, with can be exaggerated through different experiences, and can be subdued through kinds of training, but Temperment is not something a human can fully change. Influence when young, yes, change, no.

 

[adoptashelterpettoday]

I volunteer with many rescues, and I have no problem with an outside dog as long as the family spends time with it and properly cares for it. Especially a breed with a full coat like a GP.

 

[savethebulliedbreeds]

Anyone who fights their dog doesnt love it. Who would allow their dogs to be scared up and possibly die just for some money? I know I sure wouldnt with mine. The dog fighters IMO are part of the reason the breed get such a bad rap. I have been told by my local shelter's manager that one of his ACO's was bitten by a pit yesterday and our city might soon consider BSL. Sickening to me because I love pits & they already have it really hard at the shelter.

You can say all you want that it is a sport but it is a discusting sport of animals killing each other so people can make money. Anyone who participates in any way with dog/cock/or any other animal fighting I know will get what is comming to them.

We have established that people were not saying that they agree with dog fighting today but accept and respect the fact that without the fighting historically, these dogs would not be what we love today.

 

[Miakoda]

and I have no problem with an outside dog as long as the family spends time with it and properly cares for it.

And that's what truly matters.

Is it cruel that miliatary & police dogs are kept in kennels only to be taken out for training & when on active duty? These dogs are not kept in their handler's homes being fed twinkies by the children & sleep in the beds. So are they abused to?

IMO, forcing little anklebiters to wear clothes & carrying them around in pet carriers or purses all day long & not allowing them down to walk on a leash or on the ground & BE A DOG is cruel. Dogs weren't put here to be our baby dolls & fashion models. They aren't accessories to whatever we wear that day.

 

[tommyt]

Firstoff, I wanted to say that I keep my dog indoors. However, when he is outside, he is on a chain setup. This is for his protection and to keep both of us out of any trouble. Honest to God, if I had more land I would put my dog on a chain more often. I am sure that he would rather sit outside while I am at work than sitting in the house looking at the walls. Some of you feel that chaining is wrong, regardless of the amount of human interaction it receives. I fail to see the logic behind this.
Think about it, we are all crazy about our dogs. The people from our forum are no different than you. We are spending our time defending our dogs because they mean alot to us. I know that there are people who chain up dogs and pay them no mind. However, there are many that do give the dogs the human interaction they need. I can guarantee you, if we didn't care enough to give adequate attention to our dogs, we wouldn't be here spending all this time defending them. What I am saying, consider the fact that a dog may not be neglected or abused simply because it is on a chain. If you see someone with a yard full of chained dogs looking like Lil Bit, please don't jump to crazy conclusions. They may be very well taken care of.
This is a very big fear for alot of APBT owners. Hence, the reason people are so jumpy about the topic. People have had their entire yard of dogs taken away because they were chained up. All the while, they were very well taken care of. Just because they are on the chain, it does not make them any less of a family member. It is very devastating to lose the dogs you raised and became attatched to.

By the way, my dog is on a 24 foot chain. That is the size of a 50x50 foot kennel. A kennel this size would cost alot of money. It would cost about the same for me to fence in the entire yard. However, a kennel or fenced in yard would not be adequate to secure this dog. As you can see, the weight is of no issue to him and he has not become mean or territorial over his chain space either. Here are a few pictures of him jumping around for the flirt pole.

 

[Roxy's CD]

Doberkim

I don't believe you read my entire post.

I'll clarify some statements just to make it a bit more clear:

The majority of pits I believe can be trained and worked with to a point where they CAN be in the presence of another dog and behave beautifully.

I believe you stated that "DA does not mean a bad dog". That is precisely what I meant in that quote. Despite DA, any dog can be trained to behave beautifully and seemingly have no DA at all.

Be that as it may, Hades is not fully grown and matured, but to date,...

You also stated almost in the same words as I previously have, that many breeds, you mentioned bully breeds specifically, will not have any signs of DA until a few years into life, I assume you were speaking of the "magic age", of 2 years old.

My quote I thought was clear, but did state, Hades is NOT fully matured, BUT TO DATE, meaning presently and the complete duration of his life SO FAR we have had no incidents.

Regardless, as you stated that's another thread.

Some quick points on my wonderfully, what appears to be very different view on pitbulls (which is partly due to my own experience with what so far, is not mentally a "breed standard" DA pitbull):

-genetics combined with environment is what makes a dog the dog it is (variants of either or, are totally possible, EX) A DA pitbull, that despite training cannot behave whilst in the presence of other dogs OR OF COURSE a pitbull who has NO DA whatsoever)

-knowledge of any dog's breed standard regarding aggression should ALWAYS be taken into account

And what I feel to be the most important part, is WHY someone "likes" or loves the breed, APBT so greatly.

Is it because they were used in dog fighting?

I would hope not. Yes, DA is very likely. But hopefully that isn't why you've chosen the breed, so I see no issue with working hard, training and breeding for pitbulls who are not DA. Yes, that is their history. Yes, you can respect that history. But there is nothing wrong with trying to rid the pitbull of the "dog fighting" DA standard.

Dog fighting is illegal. So why breed a dog to do something illegal? Why not focus on all of the other very appealing points of a pitbull?

 

[Miakoda]

Tommy, you heathen you.

And molena, I don't think we are going to get an answer about the other breeds & other scenarios b/c this truly isn't a chaining issue, it's a "pit bull" issue.

 

[Renee750il]

And that's what truly matters.

Is it cruel that miliatary & police dogs are kept in kennels only to be taken out for training & when on active duty? These dogs are not kept in their handler's homes being fed twinkies by the children & sleep in the beds. So are they abused to?

IMO, forcing little anklebiters to wear clothes & carrying them around in pet carriers or purses all day long & not allowing them down to walk on a leash or on the ground & BE A DOG is cruel. Dogs weren't put here to be our baby dolls & fashion models. They aren't accessories to whatever we wear that day.

:hail: Now there is something that can't be stressed enough! I wish the media would spend some time examining this and less time sensationalizing, fear mongering and mis-identifying and mis-labeling . . .

 

[Miakoda]

Yes, DA is very likely. But hopefully that isn't why you've chosen the breed, so I see no issue with working hard, training and breeding for pitbulls who are not DA. Yes, that is their history. Yes, you can respect that history. But there is nothing wrong with trying to rid the pitbull of the "dog fighting" DA standard.

Dog fighting is illegal. So why breed a dog to do something illegal? Why not focus on all of the other very appealing points of a pitbull?

Ok. So if dog aggression is trait derived specifically from being bred to fight other dogs, then explain why ALL terrier breeds & bulldog breeds (including the boxer) have some level of DA (as an overall breed--of course there are some with little to none & I've never stated otherwise). Explain why the most DA animal I've ever met was a black lab. Explain why there are many a dog in EVERY breed that have some level of DA. Because if DA is a trait directly associated with being bred to fight, then that would mean every other breed was bred to do the same & we are not that ignorant to believe such a bogus theory.

Also I chose the APBT for various reasons & none have to do with dog aggerssion. BUT dog aggression comes with it, therefore I accept it & love it anyways.

Doberkim said it best: "I love you.......but not the way you are". This is y'alls motto. Such a shame as that's not love.

 

[Miakoda]

:hail: Now there is something that can't be stressed enough! I wish the media would spend some time examining this and less time sensationalizing, fear mongering and mis-identifying and mis-labeling . . .

LOL. Now that's a whole other topic, but I'm willing to go there if you are.

 

[GHOST]

Anyone who fights their dog doesnt love it. Who would allow their dogs to be scared up and possibly die just for some money? I know I sure wouldnt with mine. The dog fighters IMO are part of the reason the breed get such a bad rap. I have been told by my local shelter's manager that one of his ACO's was bitten by a pit yesterday and our city might soon consider BSL. Sickening to me because I love pits & they already have it really hard at the shelter.

You can say all you want that it is a sport but it is a discusting sport of animals killing each other so people can make money. Anyone who participates in any way with dog/cock/or any other animal fighting I know will get what is comming to them.

I will say too that I am against cropping/docking tails & ears. I have a pit foster now with cropped ears. The day before I read this thread (or some of it, too long to read it all), I was thinking to myself that I wish whoever had him before would have left his ears natural (he actually looks almost identical like your black dog Amstaffer). A lot of people think that pits with cropped ears are "scary" as well just because of the way they look. It's stupid but true.

a true dogman don't put his mess out for someone else to deal with,,,it's called culling,,, i know ,with that said it will offend some but is a true fact,,now some of the up and coming punks out there that wish they knew,,,
but the fact is we have our dogs because it's what we want,,,i had german shepards,,, true to form from excellent lines,,, and they don't compare even close to the pitbulls i have,,, i've had pibulls for 20 years and anything else just can't compare,,,to them,,

DA isn't really that big of a problem if dealt with properly,,
javascript:add(" #barefact# ")

 

[Renee750il]

LOL. Now that's a whole other topic, but I'm willing to go there if you are.

That one deserves a thread of its own, lol!

 

[Roxy's CD]

I agree with you wholeheartedly Miakoda. I truly do.

ANY dog can have DA. I've yet to meet a pitbull as DA as a Siberian Husky that used to live in the neighborhood.

It's been drilled into so many of us owning pitbulls, that DA is a breed trait. The fact that the original APBT were bred for dog fighting is probably the source of it all. And it's true.

And, I fight tooth and nail to prove otherwise. (That all pitbulls are DA)

DA is just that, DOG aggression. It's not PAOD, Pitbulls aggression on other dogs. DOG, as in any dog, any breed. Dog aggression is just expected to be in pitbulls, clearly for whence they came from, how and why.

My point is Miakoda is that of course I would love Hades just the same if he was DA. BUT, I see nothing wrong with encouraging people to be proud of a pitbull who is not DA, or working hard to cease the behaviours associated with DA. It doesn't mean that you love your dog any less does it?

I trained Roxy to sit. She wouldn't know that otherwise. So does that mean I don't love her because I've trained her to do something that isn't "instinctive"?

A dog is DA. What is wrong with training and working with it, esp. at a young age to discourage those behaviours? It wouldn't learn on it's own would it?

To me, working with a dog that has DA is not changing the dog. It's training, just as we train dogs to carry things around, lie down and do funny tricks. IT"S TRAINING.

If by training my dogs to behave well, know tricks etc, I'm changing their whole "being" than so be it.

Food aggression is not acceptable. But that's part of who the dog is, in your own terms. It comes with the dog so love it?

NO WAY! You work with them and train them and desensitize them!

Are you changing the dog? NO! Your only making it a BETTER dog. I don't think discouraging DA behaviours is changing your dog for the worse. I don't think in not so specific words that you don't love your dog because you don't want it to be DA.