Minding when distracted

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You have done such an amazing job with her already! Aussies, as you've found out, will constantly astound you with all they can pick up and what they are willing to do and learn in order to please you.

I just had my Aussie out in the woods today and he's just a joy and a half to play with. I think you'll find that you will have/do have a similar bond building with Peyton.

 

[Doberluv]

You ARE doing a marvelous job with her! :hail:

Click-treat!

 

[JoeLacy]

ok Joe,,I am wanting to send my very bad full of you know what,,german shepherd puppy to you for training))))))))))))

Thanks for the vote of confidence on your GSD, but I'm excluding my physical mailing address from this post. If I survive Peyton, the next time I'm going the Stay and Train route.

As fas as she has come, she has an equal distance to go and the second half is harder than the first. It may not be that way but training around other dogs seems rather daunting today.

She's seemingly less frantic around people now and most of the time will do her basic commands. New newness of strangers appears to be wearing off the more strangers I take her around. Not perfect but clearly better than a month ago.

Dogs on the other hand has really made no measurable progress. She gets so excited; she won't even eat her standard treats. I can’t carry cheese wiz around with me all the time but I do think it’s time to up the reward to roasted chicken.

I have to think that part of this is just puppy behavior. I have to think she missed playtime. I have to think she never got to play with humans or other dogs. Because she does appear to have some doggy social skills, I have to think she did not leave her litter too early. My guess is that she went from the liter of playmates to being chained in a backyard somewhere and rarely had human or animal contact. These are all just guesses of course. When you get a pound pup, you never really know.

I have to hope that the more dogs she sees, the less interested she will become. My guess is this is going to take more than a month. Of the three drives, Prey, fight and flight, her strongest is prey. Not too surprising given that she is a herding dog bred to be a house dog. She would rather submit than fight, but she will fight if she feels the need. I watch her like a hawk at the dog park. She runs right into a group of dogs, then goes down to lets them sniff her. If another dog growls while she’s down, she gets back up and goes into fight mode to defend herself. She tries to be friendly and play by the doogy rules, but some dogs seem to want to take advantage. That won’t fly with Peyton. Once that is over she chases other dogs around trying to find a suitable playmate. If and when she finds one, they play until they drop. During playtime, it’s a LOT of mouthing, wrestling, sometimes Peyton on the bottom, sometimes the other dogs on the bottom. Its very rough play that some dogs don’t take to very well and sometimes tempers flair with the wrong dogs.

So this makes it a bit more challenging. I believe she needs to be de sensitized to other dogs but I take her to the dog park with some trepidation. I know for a fact that Peyton just wants to play and has never EVER been the aggressor to any dog. But some of the dogs at the dog park are not a suitable match for her intentions or her intensity. I can
desensitized her to people, places and things but the dog desensitization seems a little higher on the difficult scale. Group classes will help, but I don’t think at this point it’s my final answer. One or two days in group classes may not be enough, she needs dogs everyday to move her along faster.

 

[JoeLacy]

We tried another dog park yesterday, we didn't stay long. The park had 5 issues at least in my mind.

1. The park was too large. Dogs could get as far as a 1/4 mile away.
2. Owners just sat on the sideline, there was nobody close to the dogs should a fight break out.
3. The dogs were not playing, just more roaming around trying to be the alpha dogs.
4. Owners were not very friendly. As if the owners were just "too cool" to be approached.
5. The dogs seemed tense, as if a fight could break out at anytime.

This was the second time I have been to this dog park. I didn't like it the first time liked it even less the second. They can be snooty with their snooty A$$ dogs all they want, but we won't be going back.

I think I'll visit the park my trainer suggested. It's a smaller park, where owners know each other dogs by name and get out there with them and will break up fights whether it involves their dogs or not.

 

[JoeLacy]

One other thing.

I have had her on Innova puppy, but even with pumpkin she still had loose stools. She has been on it for two weeks now. I switched back to Cali Natural Puppy yesterday and this time she's eating it well. The innova is rich of course and my liver/sardine/salmon treats are rich as well. That may be contributing to the tummy issue.

 

[Doberluv]

Sometimes a food with a single source protein helps....one that is designed for sensitive tummies. I had to use one for Lyric when he was younger and then he seemed to "grow out of it." I used Natural Balance venison and brown rice. It was the only one like that I could find. It's pretty good food I think. It did the trick. Also, you could get some acidopholus to add to the food....a teaspoon or two, I think. (not sure how much)

 

[JoeLacy]

I see and "feel" it getting better. Today we went to the petsmart with the glass. Doggy day care was going on and I got her to the glass in pretty short order and a sit. The cooked chicken seemed to do the trick. She was 25% better walking down the isles.

This evening we were sitting in the grass and 2 squirrels ran by. She saw them but did not get up. We saw a dog walking towards us, and she pulled and whined some but not with the same intensity as before. One day does not make a trend but it "appears' all the de-dogging is paying off. I'm going to keep taking her around every dog I can find until she gets bored with them.

She chewed through another gentle leader today. How she does that with the thing on her face is beyond me. I think she uses her paws to press it on her jaw teeth then chews. This is the one I bought her today and it's ruined.

Cooked chicken seems to be her hot button. She chooses chicken over her liver treats every time. If she thinks I have chicken she turn her head away from other dogs.

 

[JoeLacy]

After our starbucks walk tonight we went to the grocery store and sat by the door for 30 minutes. Perfectly calm, never pulled on the leash even once. Trucks driving by, many people waking by with rattling grocery carts. She never even skipped a beat and often was laying on the ground without the down command.

She's just such and easy dog to have around now. I think I could take her anywhere, that does not have dogs. I only wish I could tell her how great she's doing. It's 4 weeks today and a completely different dog.

 

[Jynx]

you've probably hit the nail on the head with her feelings about other dogs,,she is probably just so darn happy and wants a playmate that it's hard for her to contain her enthusiasm around them, which isn't a "bad" thing in my opinion,,but I do "get" how you want her to learn there is "play time" and there is "not play time" )))

Definately agree on your doggie park choices,,,and these aussies DO play rough ) sometimes other dogs don't appreciate it, but they are rough players,,my god,,my aussies do the big full blown body slam when they are in play mode,,and it makes me "cringe",,

and chicken eh? sounds like you hit her hot button on that one! )))
I'll share with you the "hot button" recipe for my dogs,,
2# ground raw chicken
2Cups of Flour (I usually use organic oat, but you can use whatever you want)
mix thoroughly (like with a blender)
Add HEAPING amounts of crushed garlic, juice and all..
I weigh out 1# of the mixture,,put in a greased meatloaf baking pan, flatten it out it will be about 3/4 - 1 inch thick,,Bake at 350 for 30 minutes Cool,,and cut into tiny pieces. It lasts in the refrigerator atleast 2 weeks,,(if the dog doesn't eat it all first)

You can substitute the chicken for ground salmon or ground liver,,whatever meat you want to use..This stuff freezes great (I have a seal n vac I use)
I actually bake batches of this stuff and sell it to my agility club students..

And yes,,anything like these high value/regular chicken can give a dog loose stools..but ahh the price we pay for giving them the good stuff

Diane

 

[JoeLacy]

I agree it's hard for her to contain her enthusiasm for dogs. She has good self control otherwise. She forgets the rules sometimes and a simple "ack" reminds her what she should be doing and she does it. She has a very good memory.

The rough play does not go over well with some. Peyton will lay on her back as if to say "come get me" and the next thing I know the dog that came to "get her" is on it's back being gotten. She growls when playing and some people think she's aggressive. There is not an aggressive bone in her body. Even the slightest "yelp" from anyone sends her into total shut down mode and remorse. That's how I broke her mouthing me, by yelping even if she just brushed me with her teeth. I don't yelp much these days, we're past that stage.

She doesn't bark much now, she seemed to bark more when I first got her. I have enver seen her bark at people, only dogs and my guess is she barks to get the dogs attntion. She is not what I consider a watch dog at all. She's a lover not a fighter. She seems to REALLY like small children. If an adult walks by, it's just another person, if a kid walks by it throws her into "interest" mode. Of course I have taken her around children and what I have noticed is the smaller the child the gentler she is with them. I really don't have to owrry about her around people or dogs. She is a very sweet dog to all.

I have an open door policy at my home. She is never crated. The first two nights she was here she was crated. She can sleep anywhere she wants now. Sometimes she sleeps in the bed but most of the time she goes into her crate which is in the bedroom. The door is open to her crate, she can come and go as she pleases. I don't have a command for crate, I have not needed one.

She eats on a schedule and goes out on a schedule. She is just an easy dog to have around and take places as long as other dogs are not around. Even that is getting better and besides, being happy to see other dogs sure beats the alternative.

Thanks for the recipe. I'll give that a try.

 

[Doberluv]

I'd go easy on the garlic. I read somewhere that garlic is good for them, but not too much, as it can be toxic in large quantities. They were talking about that as they were mentioning onion. (even in small quantities, that one) Lyric's special home cooked diet that I consulted with a nutritionist had a clove or two in a week's worth of food. Also, if she has a sensative tummy...(the loose stools) garlic may be a little harsh in large amounts.

But...that sure looks like a scrumptious treat recipe. Thanks for posting Jynx.

 

[JoeLacy]

I made the mistake of going to petsmart last night without treats. She was terrible. This dog gets a look on her face like a wild eyed totally ferrel animal. She seems to revert back to some primal state and is out of leash control. It's like Dr. Jekyll and Ms. Hyde and when those doors open at Petsmart. She goes from gentle as a Lamb to stampeding Buffalo. There is no such thing as loose leash and Petsmart and it's a struggle every second we're in there.

It was near closing and I was tired, she was not. I'm still hurting from my dog park collision to my left side and last night was no fun. I finally gave up, took her to the car and let her watch me walk back in the store.

I've got to find someway to snap her out of this "state", before she hurts me or someone else. This could be dangerous should there be a wet spot on the floor. I cannot get her to stop pulling with every muscle in her body. This has to be controlled by whatever means necessary and soon.

 

[Doberluv]

I think you're trying to get her to "behave" in an environment that she's not ready for. It sounds like she needs much more desensatizing to other dogs at more of a distance, one which she can tolerate and behave better so that behavior can be reinforced as well as allowing her to gradually become more comfortable and calm in the presence of other dogs. If it were my dog, I'd stay clear of Petsmart for a while and work outside of a dog park with the leash where she sees other dogs, but you can conrol the distance between them and her. Also I'd set up situations with practice dogs and systematically and gradually decrease distance between them while you work on her manners around them. I highly recommend the book, Click to Calm, by Emma Parsons. She explains a step by step program that is very, very good.

 

[JoeLacy]

Any dog in sight triggers this behavior. It's like a light switch. Perfectly Calm to TOTALLY out of control. There seems to be no in between.

I have an email into my trainer requesting we work on this specifically in class and some assignment work out of class. I live in an area that has many dogs and no yards so every time we go out there are dogs. Unless I train her to puppy pads, we are going to encounter dogs almost every time unless I take her out at 3:00 am or move.

It's frustrating in that as much progress she has made she is still a very wild dog at times. I'm physically sore this morning Carrie from fighting with her last night. This is not how either of us should be or want to be. I'm holding my temper and not raising my voice but that takes some real self control on my part.

I'll check out the book.

I play ball with her on 2 flights of stairs. She runs up and down chasing the ball for hours. She may be 35 lbs, but it's all muscle now and I'm feeling it on the end of the leash. I've simply got to get a handle on this or her socialization will stop.

 

[Doberluv]

I hear your pain....been there, done that. I had a similar problem, only around here there were virtually no dogs (except ones he already knew and was okay around) and when I visited Seattle about 3-4 times a year for anywhere from a week to 3 weeks, those were pretty much the times when I could practice and there were dogs everywhere...hard to veer away (in an arc) as approaching and hard to keep some distance at times. Even in the cities around here....an hour or more away, there still weren't that many dogs out and about during the day. So, you can imagine how long it took to get some improvement. He never did get really great...except, like I said in class situations.

Sorry you're so sore. At least she's not any bigger than she is. Be thankful. LOL.

 

[Jynx]

I should've been more specific on the garlic amounts with "that" recipe, I use probably 3 heaping Tablespoons of crushed garlic,,usually that recipe if you make the loaf's in 1# increments,,I get 4 loaf's out of it,,so the garlic is not much for the amount of loaves you end up with..)

Joe I feel your pain to! and I can feel your frustration,,Masi, my puppy,,can be such a "star" one day,,and the next day, decide to forget everything I taught her,,pull me like a freight train, and sometimes really "P" me off But then I have to stop, and remember she is just a 6mth old puppy and it will pay off in the long run

Masi is also 'dog tuned',,but in a 'defensive' way,,long story,,negative experiences in a puppy class that I am working on deprogramming,,MY problem is,,when we encounter really tuned up, wild, outta control dogs that 'bead' in on her,,she gets quite defensive (has not bitten 'yet', but acts like cujo) I don't think she knows how to act because she doesn't know what to expect..But calm dogs, dogs that are just going about their own business,,she could care less about,,)

I take that dog EVERYWHERE,,and I know you do to,,when we encounter another dog, as we do quite often, I can usually tell how the other dog will react before we cross path's.,,if I sense it's a calm dog,,we just go on past,,sure she's interested, but we just keep walking...IF however, I encounter one that may set masi off,,I have her sit, off to the side of the path we're on,,ask the other person to go past me, and usually I will tell masi to "leave it"..she seems fine with this no matter how wild the other dog is)

Ok I'm taking up space by babbling about my own wild child )) but want you to know,,you aren't ALONE!!! We ALL have our issues,,and that's the challenege I like,,to try to overcome those issues,,(even tho I'd prefer not to have them in the first place!)
it's so rewarding when you accomplish good stuff
diane

 

[JoeLacy]

Peyton was expelled from school tonight. The trainer said she was an advanced case and it's no surprise I can't handle her because it's all she could do to handler her. Other dogs got to continue on, Peyton came home. I'm telling you guys, this is not an average case.

The trainer pretty much ignored the others in the class and just worked with Peyton. When the trainer tried to get Peyton to heal, she tried to bite the trainer. She was lunging at other dogs causes them to growl, she was leash chewing, jumping, barking, getting tangled in her leash, running in between peoples legs. She would not even sit. Treats were to no avail.

She was around very calm dogs all going about learning in class minding their own business. The only one acting up was Peyton and it was NON STOP.

I took her out of the car and tried to get her to settle down before we went to class. She would not settle, I put her back in the car for a few minutes then back out. No luck, I did this 4 or 5 times and almost left class and gave up. I went inside to talk to the trainer and the trainer said she would be out and would work with Peyton. 30 minutes into the class, we were dismissed. The trainer said" I think she has had enough for tonight". Fact is, everyone had had enough.

I had her in the car today, I had the backseat full of her toys, instead she chewed up paper cups, file folders and all the papers in the back seat. Then moved to the front seat and got into her bait bag and ate that dry, then chewed up the pens in the ash tray. I was only out of the car for 15 minutes. Her toys which I filled with Peanut butter and cheese were not touched.

I took her to mothers and instead of leaving her in the car, I put her in shade and tied her leash to a tree. 10 minutes later I come out and she has chewed through her leash and is now running the neighborhood and would not come when called. Instead it was chase and tag.

This is a dog, I can't seem to take out of the house. She is never reprimanded and does what she **** well pleases.

The trainer tonight asked if she had gained weight, I said" No, shes has gained muscle." The trainer also said that this was not going to be a dog that would be content to lay on the couch. I thought to myself, maybe, if she was eating and jumping on the couch.

This is going to be a hard one, I'm not sure being 100% positive is going to work for her. Someone needs to jerk a knot in her tail, tell her NO and make her have some manners. If not this will continue to be out of control and may escalate.

I'm starting to see now why she might be a stray, she has issues beyond reasonable control.

 

[JoeLacy]

I have never had a dream about a dog. Last night I had one about Peyton and in the dream was someone suggesting I give her to the SPCA. That's not going to happen but I do think it shows my frustration level that I'm dreaming about her control problems.

I failed to mention that the trainer last night said this dog was not one to take to Petsmart. 2 trainers different view points. Her next class is Saturday at Petsmart and I hope to be less sore by then. I'm starting to think that the big dog collision cracked something in my chest. That pain has still not gone away and the soreness may not go away if I have Peyton jerking me on that side.

This is a dog that knows what I want at this point. This is a dog that is ignoring the commands and testing my will to keep her in line. I accept part of this as puppy and will give her that, but this seems more than just puppy now.

It's time for her to hit the end of the leash on this behavior before she hurts herself or me. I'm starting a zero tolerance policy today. I too have hit the end of my leash.

 

[Doberluv]

This is a dog that knows what I want at this point. This is a dog that is ignoring the commands and testing my will to keep her in line. I accept part of this as puppy and will give her that, but this seems more than just puppy now.

It wouldn't matter if she's a puppy or a 10 year old dog. (other than maturity assisting) She's a dog, an animal and has virtually no history or reinforcement for the behaviors you want her to have. It's like a bank account which hasn't had many deposits yet, maybe a few pennies put in. It's basically empty. It's going to take TIME and effective training and plenty of it to fill that bank account up. None of that stuff you wrote (above in the quote) has anything whatsoever to do with how dogs are or how they think or learn.

 

[JoeLacy]

Short of flailing beating bloody quail hearts there is nothing that will get this dog to sit. I'm not sure how many times I have to say this, but this is NOT a mild case. Fact is, I'm not sure I have ever seen a dog more out of control. There have been no ramifications for her out of control behavior. If she's learned anything, it's that I will do nothing but I continue to aimlessly try and lure her into anything even remotely reasonable in behavior. I can't even achieve the remotest amount of control.

I can balance a liver treat on this dogs nose. Don't tell me she can't learn to stop lunging at dogs. I'm not buying it. I would reward her, if she didn't lung, but she never stops lunging.

This dog waits so well, that sometimes I have to release her 3 times. I can get her to drop a cheeto, with one cue. This dog has self control.

I'm in two basic classes and 1/2 are puppies. I don't see any of this type of behavior out of any of them or any inside Petsmart for that matter.

Last night when she tried to bite the trainer, I guess I should have clicked and rewarded for not biting? Bull****. This dog is smarter than many people I meet on the streets and all this Ying and Yang Zen works fine for many things but I have to do what works for the dog.

100% positive is not working for this behavior and this is becoming a health issue now so from now on, there will be ramification when she lunges, then rewards when she does not lunge. First I have to stop her from lunging and at least make her think before she lunges. She has the self control, it would behoove both of us for her to use some of it.

If I can get her to stop it even once, then I can reward. I can't get to that point until I can get her attention. She goes back on the Martingale until she gets the message.

You can sit back and say, oh, I'm doing it all wrong, I don't understand my dog. Say what you will, but your not on the other end of this leash or have even seen the severity I'm dealing with here. Been there done that is relative to your experience, not my reality. This is not a newborn puppy with some doggy anxiety, it's a much more advanced case than that, which the trainer has attested. I didn't say that, nor did I solicit a comment or opinion from the trainer. The trainer said that on her own and this was her second class with Peyton.

I want only the best and most positive life for this pup, but I can't be positive until I see some movement on her part. Remember, I'm the one that bought the widest comfort/padded collar I could find? The last thing I want do do is hurt this dog, but she's going to get the message to show some restraint so I can reward that restraint. If I can't get to that point, then I'll never get her under self control.

I don't have years to see any improvement at all here nor do I expect perfection. I do expect my dog not to put me in back brace and at this point will try the minimal negative approach to reach even the slightest of control.

She's got the get the message to listen to me in all her self inflicted chaos and if she does, treats, love and respect are her rewards. I can't reward good behavior until I have some to reward.

I know it will not take her long, my hope anyway. It only took a few times to hit the end of the leash before she figured out she had better pay attention to where I was going. This worked and so we dance, let's hope my new approach works so she can be social and meet other dogs which is both of our goals.