Minding when distracted

Doberluv

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How much off leash (in a safe, fenced place) hard, hard running does she get a day?

What kinds of places are you asking her to sit? What is the environment like?

How long, how many weeks or months has she been reinforced for a nice sit, built duration in a non-distracting environment?

How long has she been reinforced for a nice sit of some duration, starting out with seconds, going to a minute, to 3 minutes with no distractions and then with milder distractions, a person walking by, you dropping a toy, you moving your body?

How long, how many weeks or months has she been reinforced for a nice sit with eye contact of some duration with you... with dogs which are 300 ft. away or more? (just a guess at a lower threshold distance)

It just seems to me that you aren't building behavior. You're throwing her into situations and enviroments where she is guaranteed to fail, thereby not getting an ample amount of opportunity to succeed and build ample reinforcement for single behaviors....then putting them together. You're asking too much too soon. Break things down into smaller parts, reinforce for baby steps. She MUST get reinforced for even approximations to the behavoirs you're looking for in order to build up to the end behavior.

"The type of reward, which can vary, how the dog views it, how often it is delivered, and the timing of the delivery, all have an effect on training. The delivery of a reward must happen within 3 seconds or the dog is onto something else and that behavior will be what you're reinforcing. A somewhat hungry dog will work better for food. He will comply and perform better for tastier rewards. If you start out with less tasty rewards then give a better treat, that treat will have more value.


Most all professional dog trainers use some type of schedule of reinforcement for rewards. Rewards are delivered on a continuous, variable, or fixed ratio of reward to behavior. A continuous schedule means that each time the dog is cued to sit and sits, he is rewarded. A variable schedule means that the dog’s reward for sitting varies from one instance to the next (this is not a totally random delivery of reinforcement because there will be a certain average number of sits required, much like a slot machine works on an average number of pay outs). A fixed schedule means that for instance, the dog is rewarded for every third sit. Reward schedules can also be based on response within a certain timeframe. All of these effect how well your dog will respond to your command, how quickly and how often.â€


I don't know how else to explain it. But dogs are not testing you or purposely disobeying. They do not have the cognitive ability to analyze what your mental state is, disobey out of a lack of morals and plot defiance. They're animals and simply get reinforced by their enviroment and respond to competing motivators. They really have little, lemon sized, unconvoluted brains and simply operate by the laws of learning behavior.
 

Jynx

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Joe, I honestly don't know what to say right now,,(just got home from a long work day!)
I do agree with Carrie's postings, and I think in one of my previous posts,,I did mention, don't be surprised to wake up one morning and see all the good stuff fly out the window.

Sometimes we take 3 steps forward and then 2 steps back,,it happens. I know you probably don't want to hear it, but I will say again,,she is only 6 months old, and what you've accomplished with her so far, is really dramatic (in a really good way!) but she because she is so young,,she may be on 'overload'. I totally agree with taking those baby steps, concentrate on the GOOD stuff she does,,and enforce them.

I absolutely and totally agree (and I know others disagree on this) that some dogs cannot be trained using totally positive methods, tho I wish it were so. And I will admit, and have no embarrassment about it,,that I have put a prong collar on Masi to stop the lunging at cars,,a martingale wasn't working, a flat collar wasn't working, and having a 50 lb dog blow you off while lunging at a car just won't cut it with me. It worked for her and now I can very easily walk a main road on a flat buckle collar with no car lunging. (and I didn't torture her with a prong to get the results..)

I'm not advising you to put a prong on Peyton, I'm just relating my experience when nothing else worked for me and her.

It's very confusing I realize when one tells you this, another tells you that, and your right it's easy to "tell you" one way,,it's another for it to work especially when you got a "bull" on the end of the leash..You have to do what will work for you both and you'll figure it out..

Ok I'm done rambling,,I hope tomorrow is a better day for you both :)))
diane
 

Zoom

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She's 6 months old, yeah? Aussies are HELL PUPPIES at this age. They get their grownup energy without the grownup brains behind it and it's just...unbelievable. I was lucky enough to get Sawyer at 18 months, so I missed the worst of the puppiness, but others I've talked to have attested. If anything, join the Aussie Forum (I'll PM the link later) and post your story there. You're not as alone as you might think. :)

I'm still working with Sawyer, after 3 years, on not losing his effing mind when he's on a leash around other dogs at agility and such. It's a long, slow, frustrating progress that has gotten us kicked out of a couple of agility classes because no one can hear the trainer over my idiot dog's barking.

Keep at it. Consistancy is key here. Good luck!
 

JoeLacy

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Here is the thing that gets me. NONE of the other pups in any of the classes have the issues I have and they are dumb as a box of rocks and have had no training at all. The closest thing they have heard to a clicker is a Cricket. Some are younger, some older, some same age.

Sure, some will wander and loose focus, but they are not totally bucking the system and totally out of control. It would be different if Peyton did not know any commands, but that is NOT the case here. She knows. She will do anything I want in a room full of people or on a busy street.

Around people, she is totally manageable. We have more work to do there but I have never cringed at the thought of her meeting people. There is little struggle. Around dogs though, it's Primal. Thank GOD it's not aggressive or I would have to give the dog up.

I could deal with an occasional lung even, Ok, fine lung then relax. That does not happen, it's lung, pull, bark, jump and this goes on until the other dog gets out of sight. She is RELENTLESS in her pursuit and will stop at nothing to get to the other dog. There is no relax in her. It's full throttle, flat out and by any means she can utilized to get to the dog. She makes those so called out of control dogs on TV look like CGC grand champions. It's really bad by anyones standards and even the best trainers I can find have a hard time controlling her. If they have a hard time, what are the odds I can control her? Near Zero.

There is one thing I'm going to try next. I'll try this today and see what kind of results I have and report back. We can't go to class today which she needs but I will try this method on my own.

I'm trying my best not to put a prong on this dog and I do not own one. Fact is, I'm not sure even that would help. I think she would hurt herself if it meant getting to other dogs.

Yep, you're right Zoom, grown up brains and 35lbs of extreme high energy puppy behavior behind it. It is unbelievable the power and resolve this dog exhibits. All I can do is keep her away from other dogs until something changes before she hurts herself or hurts me. If she ever reaches 50 lbs, then I really will have problems so I have to find something that works and work towards getting her better and fast.

We burn off energy during the day chasing tennis balls up and down two flights of carpeted stairs. She does that 3 times a day, 15 minutes at a time, it's as fast as she can run and I keep six tennis balls going at the same time. She crashes into walls, growling at the balls and nothing seems phase her. She brings back the ball and drops it and I throw again when it hits the floor. This goes on as fast as she can get up the stairs. All I'm doing there is building muscle mass. We walk on average 45 minutes a day, sometimes longer. There seems no such thing as wearing this Aussie out.

95% of the time, she is a calm dog. In the house she plays with her toys, sometimes she plays Frisbee, it's all pretty calm. Out on a leash 95% of the time she is wonderful and a joy to walk. Easy going and slow moving, littel to no pulling. I have even noticed her less excited over Squirrels. Not so when she encounters another dog.

She is a very affectionate dog. Always up for a pet and a belly rub and is usally in the same room with me at all times. I'm surprised she has any hair left, I pet and massage this pup so much. In bed she loves to "spoon". Totally relaxed with her back to my stomach, a couple of gentle licks to my hand and she falls asleep wrapped up in my arms.

This unbelevebly sweet and comeplety controlablle pup becomes something very different around dogs. I have said it before, she is either absolutely WONDERFUL and a dog that anyone would feel priveldged to own or UNBELIEVABLY HORRIBLE that nobody would take the time to re-train and there seems to be few moods in between.

I'm never giving up on Peyton, so much more good about her than bad. I just need to the tools to bring her in line before she gets heavier and stronger. Nobody is happy when she is so out of control.
 

Maxy24

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Do you have any friends with a dog that you could use for practice? if you could Take your friend's dog and Peyton somewhere and just hold onto Peyton (even have your foot on the leash so you don't get sore) as she flips out and learns she isn't going anywhere. Then after a few minutes of her ignoring the dog bring the dog closer and let her repeat over and over until they can actually meet. A few sessions of "flip out until calm" will probably help her to learn to stop flipping out quicker since she knows it won't get her anywhere, a few seconds of spazing maybe and she'll remember it's not gonna do anything. Perhaps your trainer would practice with you using her dog.

A LOT of dogs act like this with dogs, especially puppies. It does not really seem out of control or odd to me at all and it's certainly no reason to use a prong at this point. She simply has not been fully acclimated to dogs yet, lots of socialization and some training exercises will fix it up.
 

JoeLacy

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Hi Maxy,

That's an option but I don't have any friends with balanced dogs. I'm not sure a foot on the leash thing would work though. I could tie her to a tree, but unless it was a mature Redwood, I think she would be dragging it down the street. Hey! There's a new job for Peyton, tree removal.

In the last class she did calm down for a few seconds only to regain her resolve an instant later. I have to be even more relentless than she is and have a zero tolerance policy. It's not that she can't calm down, it's the fact that getting to another dog is a greater reward than any kind of reward "I" can give her. I can't seem to get her to refocus on me.

Here is an image of her after a full hour at the dog park. See? She can calm down.



The image below is what she did for a FULL hour to get to that point. FLAT OUT. Imagine for a second the photo below and you have her on the end of a leash. That's what I'm dealing with here not the image above it.

Peyton is either ON or off.
 

JoeLacy

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Well, I just tested my new theory, while I only encountered one dog at a distance of 60 feet or so, I could refocus her, to sit and be calm. Here is what I did.

Instead of a single treat I used the whole jar of peanut butter. I unscrewed the lid and let her lick it out of the jar as we moved closer to the dog. She didn't whine, pull or jump she was focused on the jar licking it and looking me right in the eyes, NOT the other dog even though she was very much aware the dog was there. What was interesting I think was how long I could hold her focus. Normally and this is important, she would take the small treat, swallow it and get right back to being a spaz. With the jar though, she just kept licking.

A LOT more testing of this today but it begs the question if this ends up being an answer. How do I transition from a jar full of peanut butter to no peanut butter at all? I can't carry around a jar all her life but would for the next six months if it helped.
 

JoeLacy

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Oh and yes, I plan more regular trips to the dogs parks. Both of the one's I prefer are under construction and closed. They will be open in a few weeks and weather permitting she can go often. It's the only place where she can see so many dogs and hopefully get bored with them. I'm not a huge fan of taking her because I'm afraid she will get hurt due to her over exuberance that some dogs don't accept well. Unless you have even seen how rough an Aussie plays, I'm not sure anyone can really judge. Pick the roughest player in the large dog park and that's who Peyton plays with, regardless of the other dogs size. It's a bit scary to watch. Zoom knows what I'm talking about.

Another issue. :) When another owner throws a ball, Peyton goes after it. Many times she beats other dogs twice her size to the ball. If that other dog is ball possessive this can cause fights. Make no mistake about it, if provoked enough Peyton will fight back and it's ferocious with the same intensity or greater than her play. She never starts a fight, but she backs up to nobody if it gets out of hand. She will defend herself, and it isn't pretty. Peyton has her adult teeth and could do some real damage if it's not broken up.

She's worthless as a watchdog though. She would help the burglars carry out my stuff if she thought she could get petted. She's happy to see anyone just walk right into the house unannounced. A very people friendly and pet friendly dog.

Here's another photo of Peyton getting ready to GO.

 

Jynx

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Joe I gotta say,,I DO look forward to reading about yours and Peyton's routines ,,,it does bring a smile to my face at certain points,,like the "dumb as a box of rocks" comment,,LOL...

Ok I gotta ask,,is there any other aussies in any of your classes?? Just curious! And I love Peytons new pulling down tree job :)) YOu might be on to something there! LOL..

Did I also mention at some point,,that I have learned from my aussies,,that they can be STUBBORN at times????? And believe me,,if they do NOT want to do something,,they can be as hard headed as a bull on a mission!!

I was also laughing, (and forgive me! no disrespect intended) about the peanut butter jar,,if your going to have to carry one around with you for the next couple of years LOL..

OK,,so I'm thinking Peyton was FINE at a distance of 60 feet? I would keep that in mind as her "zone",,,and try working that area (to darn bad you can't find someone with another dog who could work that with you)...It won't take minutes,,or maybe not even days,,but I would work that "zone" until she's pretty darn reliable , in your opinion, and then start closing your "zone"..get a reaction,,take a step back to the 'zone" there is NO reaction..Just a thought here!

And ya know what I'd do with her,,(and I think you mentioned your dog parks are limited right now?) I'd take her to the doggie park an hour before a class, or even two if you can do it,,and let her run herself ragged...THEN go to class..

I know you get frustrated,,but she is one cutie,,and a spitfire for sure,,hey atleast with her you know you certainly won't get bored,,:)))))
diane
 

JoeLacy

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We made it to class. It was funny watching this instructor trying to teach a dachshund down. The little guy wasn't even grasping sit. She said it's hard to teach a dog longer than they are tall. This dog wasn't the brightest bulb in the marquee to begin with and clearly nothing was "computing". Peyton was bored numb.

I took my jar with me and had some success. It was better today than last week, far from perfect and at times exasperations on both of our parts ruled. We made it home though and neither of us were worse for the experience. I led her around petmarts with her nose in Peanut jar. Smelling is over rated.

The extent of the rambunctiousness today was "almost" manageable. I noticed a direct proportion to the amount of peanut butter she could reach with her tongue to the pain in my shoulder. It's too early to tell if this is the answer, but I will most likely buy more Peanut Butter in the future rather than less.

Nope, no Aussies in the class. The dachshund , a pug and a couple of "others". The trainer had to lay her leg over the pug to get him to lied down. I was ready to eat out of Peytons jar.

I'm not sure what other dogs are in the other class we attend. We have not be allowed inside yet. I did see a Border around and it walked by Peyton and growled. I have seen some other "furry" things trotting around but nothing with energy of an Aussie Shepard with 10 shots of expresso.

The trainer did say today, I think the quote was. " She's a high energy working dog and a puppy at that". Yeah, I thought, I knew most of that, but thanks for the clarification. Peyton relieved herself on the Petsmart floor and after I cleaned that up...we left.

The jar of peanut butter did get us in the door though and I saw some results. If we made any quantum breakthrough, I couldn't say that, but it was "manageable some of the time". Maybe that the new milestone. :) The trainer did say again to train in petsmart during the week. She must own stock in Peanut Butter.

Yep dog parks before makes the most sense. Simply running her up and down the stairs 50 times just make my arms tired. We did that this morning before we went to class. She must have rested on the way 'cause it had ZERO effect on her pulling power. Aussie Sherpards should be used in the Iditarod.

I'm proud of the little progress we made today. I'm trying to revel in the journey not the destination and can do that as long as I can stay off the heating pad.
 

Doberluv

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I'm proud of the little progress we made today. I'm trying to revel in the journey not the destination and can do that as long as I can stay off the heating pad.
You have made progress and you should be proud. I can't quite picture though, how that little dog could cause you such injury. Sorry to LOL. When I recall back to my 90 LB Doberman who was solid muscle and big, heavy bones and he too lunged off the end of the leash and was a maniac for a while, even I, a little waife :rofl1: of a woman of 5'3" only got pulled prone once. Otherwise I was quite able to out strength him. Rffffffffff!

Now, onto the peanut butter:


Be sure you're not using the peanut butter as a bribe or a lure, but as a reward. It sounds like you're leading her where you want her to go with the jar "attached" to her nose. What will happen is, it will become part of the cue to walk along with you nicely. And without it, she'll go right back to her craziness. It will be difficult to fade that out. She needs to give you the behavior you want first, then reward, even if it is just a couple of steps that are nice and well behaved. But if you're leading her with it, it's bribery and that can lead to complications down the road.

I think I posted this before, but I'll do it again here:

http://www.canineconcepts.co.uk/item--Halti-Harness--halti-harness

It's a no-pull harness Dr2little recommends and uses. I've never used one myself, but she has had success with it.

This is something that you can use to control your dog while she's learning and maturing. It won't cause discomfort or pain such as a prong or choke collar. Those things definitely don't belong on a puppy. And they can make a bad association with whatever is in her environment (other dogs) while she's getting poked and choked. And some behavior problems can result as a side effect to that punishment.

I think letting her play and romp off leash with safe dogs will be a really good thing to do every day, if possible. As she becomes accustomed to other dogs, they won't be so novel and that, along with maturity, exercise and training will help.

I don't think 15 minute runs are enough. This is the type of breed that can run all day long, herding livestock. So, a few leash walks and a few quick bursts of speed just aren't going to cut it. She is young and I know that they aren't suppose to be over worked on account of their bones and joints, but I would think she could do a little more. I took my Doberman on 2-4 mile off leash hikes every day where he could run and play in the woods. There was nothing repetitive about his gait so I think that is what is important....as opposed to jogging with a puppy, same pace, same gait... I always got the zoomies out of him, at least part way before expecting him to sit down at the kitchen table and do his homework. :rolleyes:

You can try training in Petsmart like your trainer said, but IMO, since she doesn't have her basics down in lesser distractions, you're setting her up to fail. If she comes unglued in such close quarters to other dogs, how is she going to be reinforced for good behavior? I'd set up situations with a few friends' dogs out in a field somewhere so they're at a distance that she can tolerate calmly. Then walk toward the other dog in an arc shape as you go and the second she acts up, reverse and walk away about 10 feet...instantly and every time. Then try again. If she can walk nicely a few steps, keep going toward the other dog. You have to be instantaneous in your reversal of direction and it must happen consistently. If you worked on this after some good hard exercise and set UP the situations, environment etc, I think you would provide better feed back to her as to her behavior...what gives her what she wants (to visit with the other dog) and what behavior does not work to give her what she wants. She needs ample practice with this before she will make the association of what it is she's doing that is allowing her to meet and greet and before it becomes reliable.


That method may frustrate her at first quite a bit. But with good timing and consistency...never letting her approach a dog while lunging and carrying on, she should get onto it. It might take time, but less time than if she is simply put into random situations that you have no control over and where she is learning that lunging and acting like a maniac works to get to see other dogs because she's right there in the store in close proximity to them.

When you get her basic obedience more solidified...like come, sit, down, stay, those things will help you gain control when she is having a moment of spazzy behavior. That's a process though...again, not something that happens in just a few short weeks. Sometimes when dogs get crazy and goofy and can't seem to hear you and don't know what you mean, asking for one of those behaviors that have been well installed will break up the spaz session. I can't list here how many examples I could come up with, but just a couple: Lyric, when he was chasing after a dog, halted and dropped to a down/stay because that had been well installed. It over rode that urge to chase. When he was in mid chase of some deer, he came when called because that had been practiced for so long. If he was rough housing with the others dog too much in the house, if I asked him to sit or down/stay, he would immediately and that in itself would calm him down. This didn't happen in weeks or months, but a couple of years. When Peyton has had ample training for sit or down...and other things, you too will be able to break her concentration on something else with your solidly, trained in behaviors.
 

JoeLacy

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Thanks Carrie, I will read this later today probably from my Blackberry, Peyton and I will be on the road today.

I believe it was Thomas Edison who once said "I have not failed, I have just tried 10,000 things that do not work".

Peyton is not going anywhere and we have the next 12 years or more to sort all this out. There's really no rush on all this. Fact is, I can walk her all day with a cup of hot coffee in my hand and never spill a drop as long as we keep our distance from other dogs.

I will never deny her the puppyhood. All our lives are too short for that way of thinking and like I tell my son, "My worst day with you is still better than my best day at the Beach." Peyton is no different, she really is a great dog and I know it.
 

Jynx

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I absolutely agree with carrie,,especially about the exercise part..When Jynx was younger oh my gosh,,she was the most demanding puppy I think I ever had,,she was constantly ON THE GO,,enough was just not enough for her LOL...She was sit at the door and "moo" even after I had just run her a good 45 minutes!!!

Even now, at 9 (and hey I don't wanna scare you Joe! LOL),,,if say, we have nasty weather and she's not had her daily exercise (as in atleast an hour in the am and another in the pm,,and I mean HARD exercise),,she is coming unglued in the house and bouncing off the walls :)))

So they DO have alot of energy to burn,,anyhow,,glad you are doing better, and hang in there
diane
 

JoeLacy

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No question I have a race horse not pack mule. Remember, I had a Blue Heeler for 8 years. I got him as a puppy, a few months at best. I went though much of what I'm going through now but you know what? Peyton is less driven than the Heeler. My Heeler never saw a cow. He lived in the city, mostly in lofts or apts and did just fine. For whatever reason he got acclimated to city life and was calm in the end. He had his own set of problems, like humping other dogs but once the puppyness wore off, he was calm although the humping NEVER ceased.

Peyton overall is much more laid back than he was at the same stage of his life. She needs to play and we do and it's usually 2x a day but there is no way I could out play this puppy.

Peyton likes to take it easy most of the day. But does get mentally bored which means she can do things she's not supposed to do. Last night, I went to bed early, she had her way with a piece of foam comforter. I woke to a snow storm in the bedroom. My fault not hers. She has a thing for tearing up paper if she can get to it. The dog ate my homework is legitimate excuse in my house. It's puppiness and I try to watch what hits the floor.

These classes will help. Dog parks will help. Getting her solid on her commands will help too and outgrowing puppyhood. This is a process and we'll get there. I can train sit, but I can't untrain puppyhood. It is what it is.

On the jar of PB. That was an exaggeration. It's was used as a reward and a distraction. I had it in my coat pocket and when ever she started to space out into another galaxy, I would whip it out. Yeah, she got lots of PB that day, but that's because she was so distracted. It would redirect her. The trainer saw me using it and laughed, then gave me a thumbs up. I did no harm. My guess is that the smell alone overwhelmed her. There wasn't much PB she could get to other than the edges of the jar but the bottom of the jar was full.

The point in all this is that Peyton can be distracted back into reality using food but that food reward must be VERY substantial in order for it to be effective.
 

Doberluv

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I had it in my coat pocket and when ever she started to space out into another galaxy, I would whip it out. Yeah, she got lots of PB that day, but that's because she was so distracted. It would redirect her.
Timing is everything in training. A second or two at the wrong time can make or break what you're trying to accomplish. What you describe is that she spaces out into another galaxy, something you don't want, right? When she does that, you're luring her back into focus with the p.b.....in essence, you're giving it to her in association with that behavior. You're rewarding that behavior. "Oh....whenever I look away and pull on the leash, I get peanut butter. Yeah, I'll do that again." If you could get her attention by a pre-existing (something you work on at home) "watch me" or whatever behavior you like....and THEN give the peanut butter, you'd be reinforcing the attention she gives you. Or, when she is walking along nicely, behaving, THAT's the time to whip out the peanut butter, tiny tastes every couple of steps for now. Reinforce when she IS behaving and not spacing out.

This is something my son does with his dog. She may not come when called. She continues going the other way. He's in a hurry. So he hollers out, "wanna cookie?" He's reinforcing by use of bribery her non-compliance. I tell him and tell him, "Don't bribe." Get her to come some other way and THEN give the cookie. Even the promise of the cookie is bribery because that good thing, the reward is being tied TO the behavior she's engaged in right that very second, the not coming. So, never ever reinforce non-compliance.

If you could practice in places where she is less apt to space out in the first place, you raise the odds significantly of being able to reinforce the behavior you want many times, thereby guaranteeing more of those correct responses in the future. When you gradually add in smaller, milder distractions, she can become accustomed to behaving in spite of them, then onto bigger distractions.
 

JoeLacy

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Hey, I was using the "magic Jar" for everything that day including when she was doing good. It's was so frantic, I'm not sure either of us knew the when or why but yes I understand what you mean.

She did something today that was very bad, jumped out of the car and ran across a busy street. It was REALLY bad. She has never done this before. I usually have to release her several times before she will get out of the car. Not today, the door came open and she was out and running. If it had been a few seconds earlier, she would have been hit by a City Bus. Yes, we will work on this.
 

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Joe thanks for the pm, I responded but it says you aren't receiving private emails,,:(( if you ever want to email me,,here it is [email protected]

SCary stuff when a dog takes off into the road,,I'll bet your heart was in your throat!

I honestly think you should be keeping a diary and one day write a novel about the "perils of Peyton" LOL...hey maybe she could earn her keep this way! LOL..

And I was going to say,,if you can train a heeler,,you should have little problem getting thru Peytons crazy puppy antics!!

diane
 

JoeLacy

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We just got home. I left my window down today and ran into the store. She jumped out the window and went 3 doors down. The people were calling my number on her tags when I found her. She chewed a bunch of things in the car again. I'm not sure she's going to be a car dog after all. Being a go everywhere kind of dog is important to me.
 

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