Minding when distracted

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by JoeLacy, Oct 13, 2008.

  1. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    Not to sound rude but do you really expect to see progress in ONE class? based on what k9waggingtails has said and what I have read in Control unleashed, I'd say go back a few more times. They did not mean to insult you, they were afraid of your dog being attacked and of the other dog having a major set back because of a dog rushing him and causing him fear/stress. Remember this class is for dogs who are reactive/out of control with other dogs, chances are none of them have good doggy manners and may be downright dog aggressive.
    I understand you being upset/annoyed/angry at people for becoming so angry or for saying hurtful things but you have to deal with that sometimes.

    I don't know what you mean by doggy zen...it sounds like they are teaching Peyton to be calm around dogs right before his threshold so that he remains in control and can then move forward as his threshold distance shrinks. this is not like teaching a command, this is an entire behavior adjustment that goes against his nature and desires, it will not happen quickly.

    I think you should go to a few more classes and see how things progress if after 3 or so more classes you are still unhappy then leave, I would not give up so quickly on a method until you see more than a glimpse. It would be one thing if you went and they told you to smack your dog or something of the sort, but in this case more classes can't hurt. Of course this is just my opinion.

    I really think it would do you both some good to SLOW DOWN, you've been on the training fast track, it's important to remember not everything comes quickly, every dog has strengths and weaknesses, just because Peyton can learn commands easily does not mean she can learn this quickly as well (as you can see), so don't feel that because this method is not making things happen as fast as the commands that this method is not working, you are simply working on something much, much more difficult.

    Slow and steady ;)
     
  2. JoeLacy

    JoeLacy New Member

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    You know Zoom, here's a fact. I will not spend 352 WEEKS to get this dog inline. All this goo-goo baby please thing is getting me nowhere. You know this better than anyone.

    Peyton and I just walked to the store. She went up to a stranger and jumped. I popped that leash and magically that stranger was not mauled and she went into a sit/stay. Looked at me nicely, then I released her to meet the stranger and surprise surprise, she sat nicely so he could pet her. I could even sign my credit card receipt with a legible signature for a change.

    Listen, I can't always have a leash in one hand, treats in another, talk on the phone, click, type on my blackberry and chew gum at the same time. Me trying to "will" her into being good is just not working. The dog has no rules set by me. She knows there are no consequences for her doing anything out of line. I don't plan on keeping this dog in a crate until she does not jump and lunge, that would not be fair to the dog . This dog will mind, if I'm stern enough to get her attention. This is a VERY smart dog. She get's it, when I'm not happy.

    Remember you and I had a conversation about hitting the end of the leash? Yep, that still works today rather than trying to convince her to walk by my side when she wants to go nuts, she pays better attention now. She still hits the end of the leash sometimes but it's a rare occasion now. She hit the end of the leash one time after a Squirrel, guess what, she looks at squirrels now but stays close to my side. It's Magic!

    I was talking to the other trainer today and she asked if I thought I was expecting too much? I said "well, maybe, but why are all the other dogs on the class not acting the fool"? She didn't respond. Oh course she didn't, their is no "positive" answer for this. This trainer has been with Peyton now for 6 weeks and 6 hours. She knows Peyton better than anyone on this board. She said Peyton was wound VERY tight. I knew that, we all know that who has been following this thread. We get it.

    I don't expect Peyton not to be a puppy but I do expect some reasonable amount of control, for crying out loud, she's 7 or 8 months now and smart as a tack. She GETS IT!

    I do not expect perfection, I do expect the same amount of control I see in other dogs her age. That's reasonable considering how smart she is. I'm not unreasonable, but I can't wait an eternity for this to happen, if it would happen at all doing it all nicely, with pretty please with sugar on top and thank you, thank you. thank you. thank you. method. Yeah I get that method but it does not work in the extreme for Peyton.

    It's real easy for everyone to sit back and say this and that, not so easy when you're in my shoes and living with a dog that has no rules , boundaries or limitations. Even the trainer is suggesting "other measures". Why? Because Peyton has been taught her basic commands, she has not been taught manners. Even in Class, peyton sits, downs waits, looks and everything else I ask as long as I keep that reward high. Let the reward go from a treat every 5 seconds to every 15 seconds or let a dog get really close and it's game on.

    In class today, my instructor asked the class if they thought Peyton and I were doing good. Everyone said yes, what does that tell you. She didn't ask about any other dogs and thier owners. Good is relative. I suspect they were just happy I could control her by keeping th peanut butter jar in her mouth most of time time so everyone could hear the instructor.

    Food is not an issue, she eats and eats very well. She could go a day or two and be fine with it. So food treats are becoming less and less effective. If I'm not careful here, by the time I treat her into acceptable behavior, I'll have to up her treats to Jelly Donuts.

    What works for some, does not work for all. I tried the doggy zen thing, now I'm going to try something else. Hate me, slam me, ban me, I don't care. This is an awesome dog who just needs some tough love at first to learn what is acceptable and we both will be fine.

    You guys may have the next 5 years to get your dog not to jump/lunge, knock over people or chase other dogs but I don't. The gloves come off now for her safety as well as everyone else around.
     
  3. Maxy24

    Maxy24 Active Member

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    Actually it's fear, I bet someone could get you to anything too if they hurt you or scared you bad enough.

    You can set limitations without hitting or popping or otherwise hurting your dog, if you have not set limitation that is your own fault and has nothing to do with positive training. I don't think you should be bribing your dog into listening by holding food in front of her face, that will do what you described and make a dog who only listens with food. Food should be a reward for when the dog makes the right decision.

    I'm sorry you have given up on your puppy so quickly and now he has to deal with your anger.
     
  4. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    She gets WHAT? She gets that when you say sit, she sits. When you say down, she lays down. Throughout her whole life, before she came to you, she probably never heard the word sit, or down, so when you taught her what that meant, it was completely new to her; there was no un-learning that she had to do there.

    Being calm around people and dogs? That's not a behavior that you've taught her; it's not something she's "got." For her entire life until she came to you, she learned that it was really fun to be nuts around people and dogs; it probably got her a lot of attention... heck, it got YOUR attention when you were thinking about adopting her! If she had not been excited to see you, you would've probably kept walking right past her and gone on to the next dog. That behavior - being excited to see people - saved her life.... and you expect it to go away in a month or two? After such a long reward history? There's so much un-learning to do.... THAT is what the Control Unleashed class and what most people here on this thread have been trying to teach you how to do with Payton. First un-learn to be crazy around dogs and people, SECOND learn how to be friendly in a controlled way.

    Some very knowledgeable and highly respected people have come onto this thread and tried to give you advice. They have been patient for the past 5 weeks and TWO HUNDRED SIXTY-TWO posts, going back and forth giving you the same advice about the same problems. The problems you are having today are the same problems you were having in post #1, and after 262 posts it seems that very little improvement has been made in regards to Payton's dog reactivity.

    You have made it clear for the past 5 weeks that you are going to do what you are going to do, no matter what advice we gave you. I'm glad that you are now admitting that to yourself.

    I second that.
     
  5. Dekka

    Dekka Just try me..

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    did you know you can do tough love without abusing your dog?

    http://www.clickerdogs.com/rufflove.htm

    WARNING this book is not a typical training method. This book is VERY harsh. Many positive groups won't allow discussions of this book on their sites/lists as it is so harsh. But there are no leash pops, intimidations or fear involved.

    This book is written by a person who has taken the most out of control over the top dogs and helped them become world class agility dogs, as well as first class pets. (and lots of clients too)

    Yes you can shut your dog down. You were worried about making a robot. Now you are pleased with suppression and shutting down your dog. You are worried about her personality being clouded by training, but you are not worried about fall out?
     
  6. JoeLacy

    JoeLacy New Member

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    This concludes my comments on this forum.

    Mods? Please delete my account and this thread. I'll PM you a conformation.
     
  7. MericoX

    MericoX Roos, Poos, & a Wog!

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    Thanks for teaching your dog to fear you.

    Have a nice day!
     
  8. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Well what a joke that was, thank god I didn't bother to continue with it nor read it. Until today.........not surprising on any level that the same crap is still going around and ol Joe just doesn't 'GET IT'. To bad he isn't as smart as he claims his dog is...................and the sad thing is he still doesn't know how to train his dog, the theories and oblviously he has completely screwed the reward based methods and is now blaming the methods instead of where it should be............on him.

    I wish the dog luck, she is going to need it.
     
  9. Jynx

    Jynx New Member

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    Ok, I hope Joe isn't gone,,I'm not going to bash him or his frustration.. I've been 'in" on this thread with Carrie as well, and others, since the start, (since I have aussies it is of interest to me)..

    I DO think it's very easy to sit back , and condemn him for his obvious frustration and methods others may not condone , WE, myself included, haven't walked or lived in HIS shoes. What works for one dog may certainly not work for another. Now others on this board may very well have "been there done that" with their own dogs, and positive training methods may very well have worked,,and heck I'm not saying continuing positive methods with Peyton "won't" work,

    Maybe he IS doing it all wrong, but it's "his" wrong to do. I think he's tried just about everything suggested in this thread and then some. He just wants a dog he can live with is what I'm getting out of the whole thing.

    It's to easy to analyze, diagnose, and say "it's this way or it isn't going to work"..I know most if not all, on this board are 'pro positive training", I am certainly NOT against it, and prefer it, but gee what happened to all the "positive" approach to helping someone who needs it? I'm seeing ALOT of negative / reactive responses to his posts, certainly not to "positive" for Joe in my opinion. What happened to the "positive" training for the owner??

    I really hope Joe will end up finding a trainer who will be helpful in accomplishing what he wants with Peyton. She has come soooooo very far and so has he.

    Joe , if your still reading this, and you ever want to contact me, my private email is
    vmstevens@snet.net

    Good luck with Peyton, I know you will accomplish what you set out to do.
    Diane
     
  10. DogstarAcademy

    DogstarAcademy New Member

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    Diane - he may have better luck finding a trainer if he doesn't employ profanity when addressing other clients of that trainer during class.
     
  11. Jynx

    Jynx New Member

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    and you may be exactly right, I don't condone that at all, and I did read your side of things, And certainly not excusing the use of profanity, but if someone stood there and called my dog "clueless",,(and I realize the woman wasn't addressing him so joe's use of profanity was totally uncalled for),,I probably would have taken on an attitude as well..I most likely wouldn't have said what Joe said,,but I wouldn't have kept my mouth shut either..

    But again, I do realize the lady wasn't talking about Joe at all, but apparently he thought she was (again not excusing it)..

    And don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree that peyton charging up to a dog even tho she wants to play/be social, could be very dangerous for her.

    I am 'deprogramming' my gsd puppy from just such episodes, long story,,but positive puppy classes for her were definately anything but positive..I am now attending a different training place, and keeping masi behind a gate, which allows her to watch the goings on of class, they walk by her, it's helping to desensitize her to the idea that every dog she encounters wants to "jump her bones",,she's been VERY good, and VERY relaxed doing this, however, that occasional dog that comes just a tad to close, is getting a face snap, our goal is to get thru the gate and sit on the sidelines,,after that, into the class, however, the trainer and I will make sure no dogs cross her safety zone..

    But this isn't about "me",,but I can kinda relate to Joe's frustration with "classes"..

    ok done rambling,,(just want to say I LOVE CU, just bought it, and I'm half way thru it,,great book)
    Diane
     
  12. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    But that's just the thing, I don't think he HAS done very much at all of what has been suggested in this thread. We've told him many many times that he has to keep Payton under threshold, and he continues to push her too far and then compalins about a reactive episode. We've suggested getting the books Click to Calm and CU, and as far as I know he hasn't read either. The clip of Payton in the obedience class shows that there are times when she's calm, but Joe does nothing to reinforce the calmness. Even crate training - we've told him that Payton needs to be in a crate at all times when she is not directly supervised, and yet he continues to leave her unsupervised in both the house and in the car, and then he gets upset with her when she gets into things. Like I said, after 250+ posts his questions really haven't changed. I don't know what the problem was, but I really don't think there's anything more we can say here to help him.
     
  13. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Obviously that is a direct response to my post and I would like to clarify.

    I was involved at the start and why I dropped out and decided this was a waste of MY time was Joe's attitude. Not surprising that he ended up using profanity in a class setting...........that was easy to predict by reading between the lines.

    There are some excellent trainers on this board and the FREE advice that they have given was thrown back in their faces, granted the advice was freely given.

    Things can only go around and around for so long...........

    Frustration?? I would expect there are countless people myself included that have known the absolute max of frustration when training a dog AND a dog with issues. Having said that most of us being reasonable haven't blamed a method or the dog. And if that method isn't working look for WHY it isn't or look for something that does.

    I agree with Lizzy, right at the very beginning he was advised to read some excellent books and I am going to assume it wasn't done. Especially when he calls things like Zen dog training..........

    Did Joe apologize to Dogstar for what happened in that class??
     
  14. bubbatd

    bubbatd Moderator

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    Never doing anything besides basic OB , I stayed out of this . We did have a Dobe trainer in my old OB club who was kicked out for actually hanging her dogs from the chain collars . She bred and showed her Dobes and opened up her own facility . Some of my puppy buyers were going to go to her and I said " NO " . She would have broken a Golden's spirit ! Each breed is different , which is why I didn't enter this . Had I taken some of these approaches , my Goldens would have been basket cases ! I would have called it confusing , busy work with a pup that young .
     
  15. lizzybeth727

    lizzybeth727 New Member

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    Sort of....
    ..... but not until after he called her a waste of time.
     
  16. Doberluv

    Doberluv Active Member

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    Exactly. It's completely illogical to blame the method when nothing resembling the method has been done. This guy is running off of sheer emotion. And another thing: This dog is what...8 months old? I told him give her till she's 2-3 years old before she'll become close to reliable and significantly settled down. It's also a maturing thing. He can't wait for even 352 weeks let alone a couple of years. Well, that isn't how it works with lots of dogs. You've got to have reasonable expectations. I don't think this dog is right for Joe anymore. I think she should be re-homed to someone on a farm or something. Perhaps the city isn't the best place for this dog. If you don't have patience for a puppy to grow up to maturity and can't impliment the advice given along the way, perhaps only an already trained, adult dog is the way to go...one that just needs periodic refreshers.
     
  17. Angelique

    Angelique New Member

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    I've been following this thread, but have not participated for the very reason you guys are now addressing.

    Hang around the dog boards long enough and you will spot the difference between those who have a sincere desire to learn and progress, and those who seem to have some sort of other motive for their participation.

    Some folks just need a bit of a wake-up call, and others simply become a waste of time and effort.

    :popcorn:
     
  18. Jynx

    Jynx New Member

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    I do 'hear' what all of you are saying,,and I do agree,,I had a chat with someone (not joe) and heard some disturbing stuff since I last posted,

    And yes, now that it's mentioned ,,I don't recall Joe ever saying he 'read' any of the books suggested, and never did get answers on 'why' the dog wasn't crated to avoid destructive behavior..

    I'm done with this as well, I just feel bad for Peyton who in my opinion, has so much potential in the right hands :(( (just as a side I never could view the you tube stuff, my computer is to slow for that )

    I hope Peyton makes out ok,,
    diane
     

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