Herding breeds

[Laurelin]

Mia's doing the same thing to me right now. Only my butt is bigger than yours and my dog is smaller.

 

[Paige]

My sheltie was the exact same way. She was a shadow. I got up she got up. I sat down, she'd sit down. Bandit is really not a busy body though. He is quite content to nap but he does get out a lot and we do train every day. He's much more agitated if he isn't left off his leash for a good run and gets zero mental stimulation. He starts howling in the house, getting into the cuboards and generally turning into one of those dogs you get warned about. Meet his needs (which I personally consider very basic) and he's really mellow.

Also, if ou were to let him out in the yard alone he'd sit and wait like MUST WAIT FOREVER FOR OWNER. NOT TO LEAVE DOORSTEP TILL SHE COMES OUT TOO.

 

[Bailey08]

I think much of it is shaped by our personal experiences and expectations. The herders I know well (who I do not think are the best of their breeds) are OTT, no offswitch, always into something, and/or reactive/fearful. Of course that's not representative of all herding breed dogs, and of course not all breeds themselves are defined by the same characteristics. But I admit (and not proudly) that I associate certain behaviors with herding breeds. And I really just don't understand wanting a dog that doesn't have an off switch. Doesn't mean I think it's a bad fit for everyone, but it's not a good one for me!

This makes me think, too, of a class I took with a LGD who really wasn't all that cooperative. The owner seemed to be frustrated with her dog. When I said something to the trainer about it (that I kind of felt bad for the woman), she (trainer) told me that they loved their LGDs and had recently added a second one. While I think the owner probably really was frustrated at times, I'm also frustrated at times (much as I try not to be) with my own dogs, and that probably has nothing to do with the fact that her dog was about the total opposite of mine.

Yep, I like biddability. I like the energy of sporting breeds. I wanted a dog who was fun and up for anything. I really, really didn't want to deal with reactivity or underconfidence. (I have an anxious dog, who I love with all of my heart, but I wanted a confident, takes-everything-in-stride dog for #2). So I got a golden. And I generally really don't take offense when people generalize Grace's breed, because I've realized that I do the same thing to others' dogs.

Still, this is funny:

I don't like a dog that OMG LOVES every dog/human/thing it encounters, which is what Labs, Goldens and other popular breeds are valued for.

And I really like this post:

I think, as others have said, the match is more important than the breed. I got big laughs from my family last week when Gusto spent the day with my trainer, and when I picked him up, she raved about how "he's just such an easy dog". Because...well, he is. For her. For me. He drives my family up a wall. Could other people own him? Sure. Anyone who was willing to give him an hour or so of off leash running and half hour or so of mental work a day would have a super, fun, trainable, non-reactive dog who doesn't ever stress. Plenty of pet people could do it. Plenty couldn't. His littermate, who was the higher drive puppy, is in a pet home with several young kids. They adore her.

I think some of it comes from protectiveness of their breed, but a lot comes of the fact that when we are familiar with something, we are certain it is unique. And of course it is - probably just not to the extent we think. And *all* dogs have a decent amount of adaptability. Of course most Mals aren't going to be successful in a "here's our 1/2 acre back yard, you will never leave it" situation. But does Every. Single. One. need a full time trainer working them in IPO, agility, and chess daily? Of course not. Border collies are obsessive and need 6 hours of work a day, Mals are alligators with fur, Filas are actually a federal agent/dog hybrid that poops magic, chihuahuas are snippy little demons...except when they aren't. Do I let people know the downside of owning a border collie/terrier mix? Sure. But I wouldn't tell them "you can't do this". Because really - I'm not that special.

 

[yoko]

The biggest thing I had to get use to was the Collie butt. As in where ever I am Bandit looks like he's growing out of my butt. Like so.

Yoshi does this!

Whenever I first got her I tried to break her of it. Now I just consider her my butt pillow.

 

[Linds]

Paige, that's how Traveler cuddles too! I love it so much! Nothing makes me not want to get up more than a Koolie coming out of my butt.

You know, one of the hardest things for me is not talking up my breed. I fit them so well that when talking to other people I completely forget about any negatives or talk about the negatives as positives because I see them that way. I just fit them so well.

 

[houlahoops]

I also feel like a lot of times when people say, "If you get a 'normal' dog, expect ___, but if you get a herding breed you should expect ___," they basing their advice on a mythical "normal" dog. A perfect beginner dog, that (regardless of upbringing) will inevitably transform into a stable, loving, animal with an off switch and a built-in cupholder. But the reality is, "normal" dogs do not exist. They *ALL* have quirks and issues!

A woman in my first agility class had a Mal. I was shocked that this was a dog that cohabitated with -anyone- much less this portly unassuming woman. He was an absolute terror (in my mind). I was fascinated, but I never really had the guts to approach her until one day she wandered over while I was packing up the 'Houlas (and a Blackmouth) and asked (well, yelled, over the bellowing), "Oh my goodness, how do you live with all of them?"

To her, my bawling, pig-headed curs were the absolute epitome of OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE I DONE, whereas her shrieking, reactive, gogogogogogo DIE A-FRAME DIE dog had me just floored. We had a good laugh about it =)

 

[~Tucker&Me~]

I find some herding people totally get up on their pedestal. Honestly, of my fosters and my previous two dogs, Spy is the easiest by a mile. Now obviously I am not saying that every border collie is as easy as he is because they aren't, but I also think their needs can be grossly over exaggerated. In fact, I think that when many first time border collie owners get their puppies, they make the mistake of over exercising them and not teaching them that sometimes they have to chill and 'settle'. People are so conditioned (if they do any amount of research online or in person) to the idea that BCs *NEED* all this exercise that they forget that they also need down time and that being able to relax and chill out is in many cases a learned behaviour. After a few months of giving their pup a ton of attention and exercise, they end up with a young dog who has no idea how to behave when nothing is going on and doesn't understand the concept of waiting quietly and politely for the owner to do an activity.

Anyway, if someone asks about the breed I will mention the good and bad, but I definitely try not to make it sound like doomsday lol. Sometimes if I think people seem unsuited I will kind of laugh and say something like "yeah they are a lot of work!" but I try to get a feel for people and than decide how to talk about the breed.

I remember when I was considering BCs, I approached a girl at a trial with a gorgeous BC girl and asked her about them. She turned to me and bluntly said "Why do you want one?" before launching into how you have to be super dedicated and that they are a ton of work and not for average people or young teens (which I was at the time), blah blah blah.... All she accomplished was making me more apprehensive about approaching owners and asking what it was like to have their type of dog. She made it out to sound like they were aliens and that I had to be superhuman to own one. Anyway, I actually think she did a disservice to the breed because her attitude totally discouraged me from talking to anyone else.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

, whereas her shrieking, reactive, gogogogogogo DIE A-FRAME DIE dog had me just floored. We had a good laugh about it =)

We're you in class with Backup??

 

[yoko]

I remember when I was considering BCs, I approached a girl at a trial with a gorgeous BC girl and asked her about them. She turned to me and bluntly said "Why do you want one?" before launching into how you have to be super dedicated and that they are a ton of work and not for average people or young teens (which I was at the time), blah blah blah.... All she accomplished was making me more apprehensive about approaching owners and asking what it was like to have their type of dog. She made it out to sound like they were aliens and that I had to be superhuman to own one. Anyway, I actually think she did a disservice to the breed because her attitude totally discouraged me from talking to anyone else.

I think there is a super fine line between being realistic about what the dog needs and just turning people off by making them sound like super dogs that could only be kept by about 1% of people and a lot of people have trouble not crossing it.

 

[Kayota]

Wow--this thread has really opened my eyes. I had a BC mix as a kid and I've always wanted a purebred one someday, but after all the "bad things" I read I wasn't sure I could handle it and they were off the list entirely. But now I have hope that maybe I really could handle one someday Maybe after I have more experience training and such? But Dot was really a perfect dog for me, she was my best friend and I would still have her if my mom could have given her the attention she needed. Unfortunately she kept escaping the fence when I wasn't around, and my mom's boyfriend at the time made us rehome her... I still really miss my girl. Precisely why Border Collies (and any breed really) should never be left alone in a backyard... I was only 8 or 9 and still I kept telling my mom she was bored and my mom just wouldn't listen... I would have done more but I was only there on the weekends. But I still blame myself for not trying harder.. My mom really doesn't understand the concept of exercising and training at all, she rehomed the Min Pin that was supposed to "replace" Dot too... The Min Pin wasn't even my choice, it was between that and a Sheltie or Corgi... She rehomed a lot of dogs that came after that too. Because she doesn't DO anything with them. It makes me so sad to think about...

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

I think there is a super fine line between being realistic about what the dog needs and just turning people off by making them sound like super dogs that could only be kept by about 1% of people and a lot of people have trouble not crossing it.

If I had to guess most people don't really care to add more people to their breed pools, thb. I'm honestly not looking to encourage anyone to join the Malinois breed.

 

[jenv101]

Having two dogs from the same parents has really enforced in my mind how individual each dog really is and they cannot all fit into the same peg. My two are completely different from each other in their personalities (and size lol) It's really quite amazing.

 

[Aleron]

If I had to guess most people don't really care to add more people to their breed pools, thb. I'm honestly not looking to encourage anyone to join the Malinois breed.

Having serious new people become involved in breeds is how breeds are maintained though. Without a good number of people breeding and maintaining dogs for breeding, the gene pool suffers. Without people interested in well bred puppies, training and proving them in various ways, breeders have to breed less or keep multiple puppies. This attitude of "our breed doesn't need any new people" is flawed from a breeding standpoint, both in terms of getting people interested in maintaining the breed and having buyers for breeders already breeding. It's also flawed from a rescue standpoint, when there are constantly Mals looking for homes that could do just fine in the right pet or sport home.

I would agree that Mals don't need more casual breeders such as those hopping on the "Mals as the ULTIMATE SUPER Sport and Police Dog" bandwagon looking to make some money. Or people who get a Mal for sport, think they know everything there is to know about them and decide to start breeding as soon as their dog turns two...or sooner. But to say that there doesn't need to be anyone new interested in Mals or any breed is very short sighted.

Having two dogs from the same parents has really enforced in my mind how individual each dog really is and they cannot all fit into the same peg. My two are completely different from each other in their personalities (and size lol) It's really quite amazing.

There is a lot of variation in looks and temperament in most breeds, which can make it hard to generalize. The Belgians I'm around are all similar in ways but all vary quite a bit from each other too.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Having serious new people become involved in breeds is how breeds are maintained though. Without a good number of people breeding and maintaining dogs for breeding, the gene pool suffers. Without people interested in well bred puppies, training and proving them in various ways, breeders have to breed less or keep multiple puppies. This attitude of "our breed doesn't need any new people" is flawed from a breeding standpoint, both in terms of getting people interested in maintaining the breed and having buyers for breeders already breeding. It's also flawed from a rescue standpoint, when there are constantly Mals looking for homes that could do just fine in the right pet or sport home.

I would agree that Mals don't need more casual breeders such as those hopping on the "Mals as the ULTIMATE SUPER Sport and Police Dog" bandwagon looking to make some money. Or people who get a Mal for sport, think they know everything there is to know about them and decide to start breeding as soon as their dog turns two...or sooner. But to say that there doesn't need to be anyone new interested in Mals or any breed is very short sighted.

I understand, and I do agree, but I don't feel the strong need to advertise. Does that make sense? If people have interest I will be honest on the good and bad but I'm not about to sell the breed as an ideal to someone who's not found the breed first themselves. Maybe that is too much apathy, maybe I should be selling the breed more. Then again I also rarely encourage pit bulls to most people but I do encourage rescue and the breed if someone asks about them.

 

[JacksonsMom]

This thread has really interested me. I just read through all 10 pages.

I admit, after first joining dog forums, I had this "I can't own a BC" in my head because of how I've heard HOW much exercise they really need and I kind of wrote off herding breeds in general just because of the horror stories and thought I couldn't handle it.

But honestly? I see lots of just "normal" pet owners (whose dogs are mainly house pets, let out in the backyard a few times a day, and maybe taken on a few walks a week) who have breeds like GSD's, Aussie's, Dobermans, etc and they all do just fine. Sure maybe it's not ideal... and I think there ARE certain breeds that you definitely should research more into than others... but in general, I think that's what is so great about dogs - they are really adaptable.

But I agree with a lot of what's been said about individuals and just peoples personality, etc. For a lot of people, Jackson would probably be a really annoying hard dog but for me, he's PERFECT. Yet my step-mom's Dachshund mix is so unwilling to do much of anything but cuddle and be loved on... you can try to lure him with food, and he won't even follow the food and it drives me CRAZY. I can't even imagine having a dog that is so unwilling to learn, or even try lol. But for her? It's perfect. He doesn't really require much of anything - just enjoys going on a car ride or two with her, lounging around all day, and giving kisses and love. If you don't get Jackson some form of exercise or mental stimulation in a day, he will probably drive you nuts from boredom. I think MOST people just would prefer dogs to go lounge, and not bother them, or need much in terms of exercise. But I also kind of sculpted Jackson into what he is, because I started very early on with training and exercise and doing social things, etc... had he, from a young age, just been mostly ignored... I think he would have learned to adapt.

 

[Aleron]

I understand, and I do agree, but I don't feel the strong need to advertise. Does that make sense? If people have interest I will be honest on the good and bad but I'm not about to sell the breed as an ideal to someone who's not found the breed first themselves. Maybe that is too much apathy, maybe I should be selling the breed more. Then again I also rarely encourage pit bulls to most people but I do encourage rescue and the breed if someone asks about them.

That does make sense. I rarely find myself suggesting Belgians to most people. Of course, most people asking me about breeds want easy pet dogs or they're dog people who already have set ideas about what breeds they are considering and why. I don't know so much about "selling the breed" but I do think it's beneficial to have good examples of the breed out there doing stuff and to be approachable if people want to ask you about them. It's not good to portray things that are great about the breed and things that might not be so great. To talk about challenges you or others you have have had and what to look for if they decide to buy or adopt one. However, there can sometimes be this fine line between "this breed isn't for everyone" and "this breed isn't for anyone". I very much encountered the later when looking into PyrSheps. I'm not sure that mentality is really doing the any breed any favors.

As for Belgians, I never researched them at all before getting one. I only casually knew what they were, in that I had seen them and been told that's what they were and I'd see them at training. They weren't a breed on my "must own" list or a breed I'd given much thought to before. If you told me back then that I would have Belgians in the future and not GSDs or Collies, I would have found it very odd. But here I am with Belgians and no GSDs or Collies

 

[yoko]

However, there can sometimes be this fine line between "this breed isn't for everyone" and "this breed isn't for anyone". I very much encountered the later when looking into PyrSheps. I'm not sure that mentality is really doing the any breed any favors.

Ok that is worded a lot better than mine.

 

[Paige]

I don't go braggin' about my dog to people in person. Most people don't even think he is full BC anyways. they think he's a mix. If asked I answer honestly. His off switch is better than a lot of other collies but it's not totally abnormal. It's just easier to find that trait in an adult dog if thats what you are looking for. I really stress that he is NOT a lazy dog. He needs a lot of exercise. At least an hour a day and preferably a good chunk of that being off leash. He can be reactive and has taken training to get to be well behaved. I always toss the good in there too. He's smart. He's biddable. He's fun.

The shedding is enough to put most people off. Lots of people adore the snot out of my dog but would never own him based on his hair alone. To which I say thank goodness! Because they seem to have this misconception because he is mellow he requires no mental or physical stimulation.

 

[Dogdragoness]

As an owner of herding breeds (ACDs) I read the 'bad dog talk' with them also & there is a lot that frightens even a seasoned ACD person like me, but most ACDs the hard part is from about 4-6 mos to 2 years or so give or take. I have one (josefina) who is super challenging in many aspects that I believe most ppl couldn't handle; she is very independent, will wonder off, you always have to watch her, she didn't have a good start in life (dumped at thr AC in a box with her three brothers at 4 wks) so I doubt she or the mother when she was pregnant had any prenatal care like good (or any) food for that matter.

Buddy is more a classic example of a cattle dog, he is very 'easy' & very laid back excersise wise, he is willing to be active but he is also happy to just hang out also.

So I think it's the same for every breed, it depends on the dog.

 

[Lizmo]

I understand, and I do agree, but I don't feel the strong need to advertise. Does that make sense? If people have interest I will be honest on the good and bad but I'm not about to sell the breed as an ideal to someone who's not found the breed first themselves. Maybe that is too much apathy, maybe I should be selling the breed more. Then again I also rarely encourage pit bulls to most people but I do encourage rescue and the breed if someone asks about them.

^this, so much!