Herding breeds

[Kat09Tails]

I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to unsell people from breeds and breed groups. Living with the wrong dog - SUCKS. For instance while I like the company of my brother's working line sheltie - she would absolutely drive me bonkers to live with. She's go go go go go go bark bark yippity bark bark bark barkity bark bark circle it circle it circle it 24/7/365. I'm sure she's an exceptional sheltie for actually working on a farm but for living in a the average home I don't think there's anything wrong with saying - this dog may cause anxiety disorders and may wear holes in your lawn herding rocks.

Lexus is an extreme but she is who she is and is part of the spectrum you may encounter while selecting/receiving a herding breed puppy.

 

[Barbara!]

Trying to unsell is one thing, but it drives me batty when I question someone about a breed they answer me like incapable of ever owning one. I was asking someone about their BC the other day and they just kept answering me like "His energy level is ridiculous, a lot more than I think you could handle...and he's hard headed, so he would need someone with experience, not just a kid." No one ever started out with all the information about dogs ever, and I'm pretty sure most of us started out blindly. Just drives me nuts when people behave holier than thou.

That said, I don't find herding breeds to be any more energetic in general than most sport/hunting oriented dog breeds. You do have those that are worse than others, and those that aren't as energetic.

 

[Dizzy]

I wonder this too..... My experience has been meeting all kinds of owners with all kinds of breeds, and no two are alike.

Anyone can own any breed if they want too.... It just depends what they wants... I've never met a nuts herding breed dog.... Granted I don't spend time round working bred dogs, but how many working bred breeders sell to average owners???

 

[TahlzK]

Trying to unsell is one thing, but it drives me batty when I question someone about a breed they answer me like incapable of ever owning one. I was asking someone about their BC the other day and they just kept answering me like "His energy level is ridiculous, a lot more than I think you could handle...and he's hard headed, so he would need someone with experience, not just a kid." No one ever started out with all the information about dogs ever, and I'm pretty sure most of us started out blindly. Just drives me nuts when people behave holier than thou.

That would totally **** me off.

I can't say much about herding breeds because I don't know a whole lot about them. The ones I have met are extremely high energy dogs and are generally on the go.

I think anyone can match a certain breed if they put their energy in to it/provide what that individual dog needs. My Kelpie x ACD is very low key, she has plenty of energy and can exercise/play for ages but she's not bouncing/pacing around all the time, she can easily relax at home and I like that. Though, her energy level isn't compared to any another herding breed I've met, she's pretty chilled even when out exercising. She's fearful and reactive though. I didn't know them being so reactive was be a breed trait. I am in love with the breed though and I plan to own herding breeds in the future, I want a few different herding breeds at the moment. I know I wouldn't be ready for one with such a high energy level right now but in the future, I will be.

I also am in love with Bull Breeds. I also ADORE Rottweilers and I will own one, one day but I know I need to learn a lot more about the breed/dogs/training before I get one.

Herding breeds have my heart though and I've changed my life for my girl so I can do it for any future dogs. They are everything I want in a dog and I'll always have one. Though, I am glad my two are low key because right now in my life, I do not want a high energy dog.

 

[elegy]

Anyone can own any breed if they want too.... It just depends what they wants...

Maybe they *can*, but should they?

I work every day with the dog-owning public, and there are a lot of people who own dogs and shouldn't, period. And there are a lot of people who own high-energy, high-requirement dogs and shouldn't. And there are a lot of people who own powerful dogs, and shouldn't.

Because I find that a large proportion of people don't make time for their dogs. And a lot of the herding breeds require heavy daily physical and mental stimulation. You can't just keep 'em on the couch. And a lot of them, when they are puppies, require a lot of socialization because they do have a tendency to shyness/reactivity, and a lot of people aren't up for that.

I guess I don't have enough faith in people to completely change their habits and personalities because they bought/adopted a certain kind of dog.

 

[BostonBanker]

I think, as others have said, the match is more important than the breed. I got big laughs from my family last week when Gusto spent the day with my trainer, and when I picked him up, she raved about how "he's just such an easy dog". Because...well, he is. For her. For me. He drives my family up a wall. Could other people own him? Sure. Anyone who was willing to give him an hour or so of off leash running and half hour or so of mental work a day would have a super, fun, trainable, non-reactive dog who doesn't ever stress. Plenty of pet people could do it. Plenty couldn't. His littermate, who was the higher drive puppy, is in a pet home with several young kids. They adore her.

I think some of it comes from protectiveness of their breed, but a lot comes of the fact that when we are familiar with something, we are certain it is unique. And of course it is - probably just not to the extent we think. And *all* dogs have a decent amount of adaptability. Of course most Mals aren't going to be successful in a "here's our 1/2 acre back yard, you will never leave it" situation. But does Every. Single. One. need a full time trainer working them in IPO, agility, and chess daily? Of course not. Border collies are obsessive and need 6 hours of work a day, Mals are alligators with fur, Filas are actually a federal agent/dog hybrid that poops magic, chihuahuas are snippy little demons...except when they aren't. Do I let people know the downside of owning a border collie/terrier mix? Sure. But I wouldn't tell them "you can't do this". Because really - I'm not that special.

 

[Catsi]

A little OT, I think this can happen in reverse too. Sometimes I feel sorry for the 'easy' dog breeds. The ones that are touted as not needing a great deal of exercise and are really easy-going. I just wonder if sometimes that translates as NO exercise and the same old boring routine for dogs that seem to just cope.

 

[Shai]

Perfectly stated.

I think, as others have said, the match is more important than the breed. I got big laughs from my family last week when Gusto spent the day with my trainer, and when I picked him up, she raved about how "he's just such an easy dog". Because...well, he is. For her. For me. He drives my family up a wall. Could other people own him? Sure. Anyone who was willing to give him an hour or so of off leash running and half hour or so of mental work a day would have a super, fun, trainable, non-reactive dog who doesn't ever stress. Plenty of pet people could do it. Plenty couldn't. His littermate, who was the higher drive puppy, is in a pet home with several young kids. They adore her.

I think some of it comes from protectiveness of their breed, but a lot comes of the fact that when we are familiar with something, we are certain it is unique. And of course it is - probably just not to the extent we think. And *all* dogs have a decent amount of adaptability. Of course most Mals aren't going to be successful in a "here's our 1/2 acre back yard, you will never leave it" situation. But does Every. Single. One. need a full time trainer working them in IPO, agility, and chess daily? Of course not. Border collies are obsessive and need 6 hours of work a day, Mals are alligators with fur, Filas are actually a federal agent/dog hybrid that poops magic, chihuahuas are snippy little demons...except when they aren't. Do I let people know the downside of owning a border collie/terrier mix? Sure. But I wouldn't tell them "you can't do this". Because really - I'm not that special.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

A little OT, I think this can happen in reverse too. Sometimes I feel sorry for the 'easy' dog breeds. The ones that are touted as not needing a great deal of exercise and are really easy-going. I just wonder if sometimes that translates as NO exercise and the same old boring routine for dogs that seem to just cope.

I also sell the hard parts of any breed first. Every breed has its downfalls. To pretend otherwise is irresponsible. To encourage people to go into a breed only knowing the "ohhhh shiiiiiney" is a very good way to take a perfectly stable puppy, screw it up, and have it end up in a rescue setting when the owners are in over their heads and claiming "but I thought..!"

I figure as a dog owner it's your Job to do your best to let the less desirable traits be known. If people can tolerate in varying levels through the cons they are a great candidate for the pros, IMO.

In the end a lot of the warning off is for the dogs safety, not the owners.

This isn't anything new. I grew up with pit bulls and most people in the breed were ferociously protective of the breed. To be very honest I find pit bulls to be a generally breezy dog to own. They give so much pleasure it's hard to see the DA extra safety, the community caution, and so forth, as cons but that's not for everyone. Of course I also thought my pit bulls were high energy before my Malinois. Shamoo still puts most mals to a challenge as far as drive goes but she also seems content with hanging out sans stimuli, the Malinois are constantly looking for their next toy, game, trouble. That alone can set plenty on edge.

Different strokes for sure and yeah, everyone can own any breed but truly they shouldn't. We would barely need rescue if this weren't true.

ETA I do believe tone is important when entertaining the why you should be cautious before exploring this breed or dog. I was told point blank by a rehoming that sorry this isn't the dog for you and honestly, I am be an anomali, I was happy to hear someone be more interested in the well being of the dog than the money I was offering. As a general though I think it's rude to presume others cannot handle what you can, a polite method is sharing what you have found to be harder or what you think would be difficult for others and let them chose themselves.

 

[Laurelin]

I should add that this was sparked by someone that is looking to adopt an adult and was going to put in an hour and a bit weekdays, and more on the weekends for exercise. Was told pretty much not even to look at herding breed dog individuals because it just wouldn't be enough time.

I think, as others have said, the match is more important than the breed. I got big laughs from my family last week when Gusto spent the day with my trainer, and when I picked him up, she raved about how "he's just such an easy dog". Because...well, he is. For her. For me. He drives my family up a wall. Could other people own him? Sure. Anyone who was willing to give him an hour or so of off leash running and half hour or so of mental work a day would have a super, fun, trainable, non-reactive dog who doesn't ever stress. Plenty of pet people could do it. Plenty couldn't. His littermate, who was the higher drive puppy, is in a pet home with several young kids. They adore her.

My trainer has been raving about Mia (although last week she got to see her stubborn side finally), which is funny because my family complains so much about her.

I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to unsell people from breeds and breed groups. Living with the wrong dog - SUCKS. For instance while I like the company of my brother's working line sheltie - she would absolutely drive me bonkers to live with. She's go go go go go go bark bark yippity bark bark bark barkity bark bark circle it circle it circle it 24/7/365. I'm sure she's an exceptional sheltie for actually working on a farm but for living in a the average home I don't think there's anything wrong with saying - this dog may cause anxiety disorders and may wear holes in your lawn herding rocks.

Lexus is an extreme but she is who she is and is part of the spectrum you may encounter while selecting/receiving a herding breed puppy.

I'm just curious if he does any kind of sport or anything with her? Shelties are pretty quirky at times but the ones I meet around here at agility and the ones I've owned have all been so easy.

 

[RD]

I agree with a lot of what's been said. Herding breed people are sooo on a high horse. As are working breed people, and hound breed people, and terrier breed people, and toy breed people. Everyone thinks their breed is BEYOND being just a dog, that their breed is special. And of course it is! All dogs are incredibly special. People need to remember that for every breed they may overlook or dislike, another person loves that breed with a passion. There's no point in being so snobby. Dogs are dogs, they are beautiful, delightful individuals within their own breeds. But they're all dogs. BCs, chihuahuas, akitas, filas, dobes, spitz, greyhounds... all similar genetic makeup, all dogs. There is nothing sooooo extraordinary about any breed that it defies the species as a whole. Hate hearing people say "Oh _______'s aren't JUST dogs". Yes, dear. They actually are just dogs. What's so bad about that? Dogs are AWESOME.

There are breeds within the herding group that I'd consider easier to live with than others. For me, it'd be border collies, GSDs and Aussies. There are some that wouldn't fit me well, such as Mals and Koolies. I don't think think any breed is harder to live with than another, it's just a matter of your preferences. I like an energetic dog like a BC or GSD or Aussie, and I can live with most quirks, so herding breeds work great for me.

The quirks that pop up randomly well into adulthood are something that I think needs to be emphasized, though. You can get a perfect herding breed puppy who, like any person, will develop pretty intense "likes" and "dislikes" even as they're grown. All dogs do this, but herding breeds seem to do it with a greater intensity that can really throw people off. My dog wasn't sound sensitive until she was well over 2 years old, how's that for a surprise? I'm not saying that she developed that because she's a border collie and border collies are THE HARDEST DOGS EVER TO LIVE WITH. I'm just saying it as a small warning, that sometimes their quirks can limit them a bit.

There are things I don't like in dogs (lots of barking for example) that I would really like to know about when asking questions about a new breed. I would've been ordering myself a shiny new Koolie had I not heard through here that they have some traits that make them unsuitable for me. I would imagine some people would like to know about the downsides of my particular breed or anyone else's, too, if they were looking into it. It's not always being on a high horse. Sometimes it's just saying "this is how these dogs are".

 

[Fran101]

frankly, I think the "OH GOSH SO SPECIAL!" breed thing does more harm then good sometimes.
We all have breeds we hold near and dear, but by embracing these one liner type stereotypes, I feel we kind of limit or gives a sparknotes version to what the breed truly is and it does the breed no service.

The happy go lucky goldens.
The crazy drive malinois.
The ocd border collie.
The clingy yappy chihuahua.
The retrieving happy lab.
The magical all knowing fila.
etc..etc..

People very easily swallow these one liners, think they have found the breed for them or forever assume thats what those dogs are like due to CONSTANTLY being reinforced that those traits are what the breed is about.. get the dog or get to know a dog of that breed and come to find they are SO MUCH MORE then that.

Dogs are so much more individual then I think we give them credit for. Same goes for breeder lines etc..
I just wish people would encourage people to find out ALL the wonderful things we know about our dogs, about the breed, and truly get to the root of these dogs and what kind of dogs the breeder produces instead of going by these little snippets of info.

Herding dogs get the super energy reputation but just look at this thread. We have them of all types and kinds, owned by just about all kinds of homes and families.

I hate to say it, because I know lots of breed people don't like to hear it.. but I really don't think the breed type issue is as big of a deal as some people make it out to be..

 

[Laurelin]

Yeah but you can only go so far. Mia for example, is pretty extreme in a lot of ways for her breed. Basing all papillons on Mia or Rose would be basing the breed on the extremes. I do think generalizing to the typical dogs (the Summers, Beaus, and Bernards) is GOOD and mentioning that there are some variations is also good. Of course I think you can generalize to an extent or else we wouldn't have breeds. I do see a lot of people basing their opinion on ONE dog of a breed that they owned. I've been around hundreds of papillons very literally and I've seen them all but there is definitely a typical temperament to an extent but you always get outliers.

But the statements made were really 'if you get a normal dog breed then you will have to put in X amount of time, if you get a herding dog then you need to put in double the amount of time' Not even talking about a specific breed or anything... And then the next person saying that you HAVE to start up dog sports if you get a herding dog. I need to tell all the pet herding breed people they're doing it wrong. I also know of some people with some very difficult non-herding dogs and I know some really low drive herding dogs that are very happy as mellow pets.

I just know for me that I'd be totally lost with a really independent dog or a dog with very strong guardian instincts or a very scrappy kind of dog. But some odd quirks, need for some extra socialization, and lots of energy are normal. Not even just normal, but desired.

 

[RD]

Oops. Better tell Eve she's not living like a real border collie should because she doesn't do dogsports.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Let's be totally honest, if someone wants a dog they'll get it. No matter how well suited it is. Maybe it's a waste of breath but after seeing too many times of dogs being dumped for being exactly what their breed should be its a common reaction. I can't count how many pit bulls get dumped for animal aggression.

My dad wants a Malinois. He is in his late 60s, inactive, has no house rules, the dogs are in and out all day and if they are out when he's leaving they get shut out or if vice versa, the dogs are loose together all day, free fed, etc. I took over my two for a day and he said... Wow they really don't stop moving do they? I hope that helps his choice, he's not an ideal home for a Malinois, love being an exception. But hey, who am I to so rudely say what someone else should or should not own? Lol

 

[Laurelin]

I'm not saying you can't discourage people from getting a dog of a certain breed. I've had people say "I want a quiet dog" and then tell me they're looking at shelties. I think it's fine to say 'hey wait a minute, probably not what you really want'

But I see that as very different from what the people were saying.

 

[Laurelin]

Although I do have to say I think people overstate the whole sheltie barking thing too.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

There are extremes, of course, but I stand by saying the majority of people cautioning against their breed is from a good place.

 

[Laurelin]

But this wasn't a breed, it was an entire group. I still think if you're adopting an adult then you should go with the dog in front of you moreso than the breed.

ETA: I guess my point is more of this person might not be a good malinois owner but they might be great for a smooth collie. (Just as an example)

 

[sassafras]

I think some of it comes from protectiveness of their breed, but a lot comes of the fact that when we are familiar with something, we are certain it is unique. And of course it is - probably just not to the extent we think. And *all* dogs have a decent amount of adaptability. Of course most Mals aren't going to be successful in a "here's our 1/2 acre back yard, you will never leave it" situation. But does Every. Single. One. need a full time trainer working them in IPO, agility, and chess daily? Of course not. Border collies are obsessive and need 6 hours of work a day, Mals are alligators with fur, Filas are actually a federal agent/dog hybrid that poops magic, chihuahuas are snippy little demons...except when they aren't. Do I let people know the downside of owning a border collie/terrier mix? Sure. But I wouldn't tell them "you can't do this". Because really - I'm not that special.

Very well said. I get weary of really rigid descriptions of how special breeds are or how only certain people could ever handle them. Yes, breeds have traits. Yes, people researching breeds should honestly hear about potential flaws and challenges, but the "oh you could never handle an xyz" gets tiresome.

And yes, I realize that people on dog forums probably aren't representative of an "average" owner, but it's ON internet forums that I see it the most... and I'm the sort of person who takes up, say, urban mushing because she fell in love with a working line Alaskan mix... which maybe is an exceptionto the rule, but I do firmly believe many people can do right by dogs they might not seem right for at first glance. Doesn't mean I think "anything goes", but I do think people get a bit of a skewed perspective sometimes.

frankly, I think the "OH GOSH SO SPECIAL!" breed thing does more harm then good sometimes.

I do, too. There are dogs I know who if I'd never met them or other members of their breed, I would have a totally different opinion of just based on people's well-intentioned warnings of them.