Herding breeds

[AdrianneIsabel]

Although I do have to say I think people overstate the whole sheltie barking thing too.

And my pit bulls dog aggression is super mild now compared to previous ones. Shamoo is actually pretty good with dogs and Arnolds mellowed a lot with training and age.

However, I know better than to judge the majority of the breed on my two potatoes.

Of course finding variance in a breed can help most people find their dog in any breed, within reason. Every sheltie I know is a barker or debarked, but I also see nicer dogs now than ever before. I honestly had no idea why people liked them when I only knew quiet mellow shelties but now that I know some drivier barkier ones I have a new appreciation for the breed.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

But this wasn't a breed, it was an entire group. I guess my point is more of this person might not be a good malinois owner but they might be great for a smooth collie. (Just as an example)

no that totally makes sense, I agree. Wheatens are very different than most terriers. (for example)

 

[Aleron]

I think some of it comes from protectiveness of their breed, but a lot comes of the fact that when we are familiar with something, we are certain it is unique. And of course it is - probably just not to the extent we think. And *all* dogs have a decent amount of adaptability. Of course most Mals aren't going to be successful in a "here's our 1/2 acre back yard, you will never leave it" situation. But does Every. Single. One. need a full time trainer working them in IPO, agility, and chess daily? Of course not. Border collies are obsessive and need 6 hours of work a day, Mals are alligators with fur, Filas are actually a federal agent/dog hybrid that poops magic, chihuahuas are snippy little demons...except when they aren't. Do I let people know the downside of owning a border collie/terrier mix? Sure. But I wouldn't tell them "you can't do this". Because really - I'm not that special.

I tend to agree with this. There are definitely poor matches of people and breeds but I also think people tend to be a little...extreme sometimes. When I first started looking into PyrSheps, there was a general tone of "well are you sure you could handle one?". Savvy has less of an off switch than a lot of my other dogs but he's adaptable too and tries hard to be a good dog. And he's still a very young dog. Whim is super easy and such a naturally good dog that if she was my only experience with Belgians, I'd wonder why they weren't more popular. Seven probably makes some people wonder why anyone would want one. I get along well with Belgians in general though. There's ways Savvy's easier than most Belgians and ways he's not. There are ways most Belgians are easier than most GSDs and ways they aren't. There's things about Ziggy that are really easy and things about him that aren't so much.

Of course, that is true of most dogs concerning both breeds and individuals.

My first dog was a very fearful Dobe mix that my parents let me adopt from the pound when I was 11. We brought him home at 8 weeks old while my dad was at work. When my dad came home, the puppy hide behind the couch and wouldn't come out. He was weird with a lot of people initially even at such a young age. But I wanted a puppy and I wanted him to go everywhere with me and that is what I did. I started training classes with him at 5 months old and he hid behind me when people tried to pet him, sometimes growling or barking. He'd hackle up and bark at people on our walks. I really didn't know enough to know how worrisome a lot of his behavior was, so I just kept taking him out and about and to class. In no way was he a dog that anyone would suggest giving to an 11 year old kid as her first dog. He was big, powerful and had fear aggression tendencies. But it was fine. People who met him after he was about 3 years old couldn't believe he was ever fearful and reactive. Sometimes I think the more people know, the more likely they are to overreact about a dog's behavior because they see everything as a warning sign for something more serious.

 

[Laurelin]

And my pit bulls dog aggression is super mild now compared to previous ones. Shamoo is actually pretty good with dogs and Arnolds mellowed a lot with training and age.

However, I know better than to judge the majority of the breed on my two potatoes.

Of course finding variance in a breed can help most people find their dog in any breed, within reason. Every sheltie I know is a barker or debarked, but I also see nicer dogs now than ever before. I honestly had no idea why people liked them when I only knew quiet mellow shelties but now that I know some drivier barkier ones I have a new appreciation for the breed.

I know a lot of drivey shelties. I had one calm sheltie (but also very fearful) but my other two were not calm nor fearful. Plus I've known some really great shelties in agility. My old trainer's MACH boy is completely amazing and her young dog comes from two worlds dogs. He's a spitfire and I'd very much love a dog like him.

But I still think people over-exaggerate the barking thing. Mia barks just as much as the shelties I know and have owned except they bark more when they're in drive. But just hanging around, they're about the same.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Aren't papillons known for being barky too though? And increasing barkier when excited?

 

[RD]

I dunno about most Paps in general, but mine was an excitement screamer/yipper. He would get riled up about something and do these little whines/yips and it would escalate into full-on shrieking. He thought it was great fun. In general, he was vocal but not yappy like say, the pomeranians I met who punctuated their every action with a few barks.

 

[Laurelin]

Aren't papillons known for being barky too though? And increasing barkier when excited?

Depends on who you talk to. I would say they do tend to bark more (except Rose, who has barked maybe 5 times in her life). Mia and Summer in particular are yappers. The shelties 'talked'. Mia does the most excitement screaming of any dog I've had. I have so many pics of Trey that look like this:

bark by Summer_Papillon, on Flickr

I have a high tolerance for barking though.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

That makes sense and it's an interesting distinction. I think I get it, Backup is a "talker", I don't mind it unless its excessive outside when I worry about bothering my neighbors.

 

[Laurelin]

That makes sense and it's an interesting distinction. I think I get it, Backup is a "talker" where as Teddy, our chihuahua foster, was a yapper.

Mia's a yapper and a screamer. Mia screams at the drop of a hat. She's on the couch right now asleep and I know if I said a word like 'go' or even closed my computer and stood up, she'd jump up and run around the room screaming. She won't just sit around and woo woo woo and talk like Trey and Nikki would, though. Trey would just sit there and make all kinds of honking and wookie kinds of noises. He did bark a lot when he'd get excited but was pretty quiet around the house usually. All my shelties would react to certain songs and want to howl along or they'd respond to my talking to them with roo roo rooo. I do miss that.

Nard is a talker though and his mom's a talker. They both bay instead of yap like every other papillon I know. For some reason that line seems to throw dogs that vocalize differently. I like to say he just speaks Japanese papillon since his sire and dam were both Japanese.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Hahaha yeah... Backup will walk around grumbling. He even "happy growls" when people pet him which is super disconcerting to strangers. Sloan is creepily silent unless she's angry.

 

[momto8]

Before we brought Ace home we were told how bad aussie's were. How destructive and hyper ect and that they were not good dogs to be in a home with small kids ( my oldest was around 5 at that time). He was the perfect puppy, he never did anything wrong, housetrained fast, was never even crated and now 5 yrs later still has never ever destroyed a thing! My next 2 aussies were angels just like him, Dutchess was an adult when she came to us, but Kiley was a pup. Sierra our Collie is an easy dog to live with as well, very happy go lucky dog! I could not imagine not having a herding dog or two!

 

[Kat09Tails]

Although I do have to say I think people overstate the whole sheltie barking thing too.

Oh no... not with this dog. She barks when she's happy - barks when she's sad - barks in her sleep. No she doesn't do dog sports - she is a under exercised pet just like every other under exercised pet in America. That's just it... no amount of love will make her a pug, a basset hound, an APBT, or a lab and we shouldn't say that they can be just like any other dog because they're not. Is she a good match for my brother living in Seattle? Prob not with the neighbors but there she is with a satisfied owner. I can't say she's unhappy or damaging herself - I just know that the situation for me would be short lived at best and I don't think it's wrong for someone to tell someone that their lifestyle is wrong for a breed.

Some papillons lines are yapsticks. I own 2 - one who is a screamer at every little exciting thing and the other who is a barker who will quiet down for the right queue. The other three I find to be fairly quiet dogs. My dogs are not for every person - they're soft - they're emotional - and they can be yappers. Better to tell them what they're getting into than have them think they're getting a lab in a 8lb body.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

That's a great outcome, much better than my aussie client who was told how easy they are and now she's high energy, rough/harmful play with their cockapoo, jumps, tugs on the leash, guards the house, climbs their walls, digs, brings rocks in the house, and, well, needs more training and a ton of exercise which the two elder women were not prepared for. They were convinced it would be similar to their shar pei and chow chow.

I'm much happier to hear "this is easier than we thought it would be" than "ahhhh why didn't anyone warn me?"

 

[Kat09Tails]

That's a great outcome, much better than my aussie client who was told how easy they are and now she's high energy, rough/harmful play with their cockapoo, jumps, tugs on the leash, guards the house, climbs their walls, digs, brings rocks in the house, and, well, needs more training and a ton of exercise which the two elder women were not prepared for. They were convinced it would be similar to their shar pei and chow chow.

I'm much happier to hear "this is easier than we thought it would be" than "ahhhh why didn't anyone warn me?"

You mean breeders shouldn't tell people that their dogs all poop rainbows and unicorn giggles? No - I'd rather tell them exactly what they could be in for - the good, the bad, and the OMG he ate the drywall!

 

[SaraB]

A couple of my dane friends have made comments about Zuma and Zinga being difficult because you know, they are herding breeds. My herders have always been soooo much easier for me than my danes. Always. They just flat out fit my personality and expectations better. I feel like I have a better bond with them, I feel that they are much more biddable and much more trustworthy. My danes for instance think it's funny to dash off across the road and get me all flustered so even Classic who has a really good recall will never be trusted off leash. Zuma has been off-leash trustworthy since about 3 months after I adopted her.

However, the general care and maintenance of my herding breeds is much higher than the danes. They need walks, they need daily training, they need things to occupy their mind. These are not the easiest for your average dog person (who btw, does not cruise dog forums online during their spare time). Most people want a dog that will be fun when they want it to be fun, and out of the way the rest of the time. The majority of herding breeds does not feet that profile. So yes, I 100% understand why people are protective of these breeds. I do not think it is appropriate in ANY case though to tell someone they can't handle a dog breed without knowing the handler AND the individual dog inside and out. It is important however to note the downfalls of any breed to potential new owners because dogs are a commitment you have to be sure that you are willing to make for the net 10-15 years.

 

[Laurelin]

Oh no... not with this dog. She barks when she's happy - barks when she's sad - barks in her sleep. No she doesn't do dog sports - she is a under exercised pet just like every other under exercised pet in America. That's just it... no amount of love will make her a pug, a basset hound, an APBT, or a lab and we shouldn't say that they can be just like any other dog because they're not. Is she a good match for my brother living in Seattle? Prob not with the neighbors but there she is with a satisfied owner. I can't say she's unhappy or damaging herself - I just know that the situation for me would be short lived at best and I don't think it's wrong for someone to tell someone that their lifestyle is wrong for a breed.

Some papillons lines are yapsticks. I own 2 - one who is a screamer at every little exciting thing and the other who is a barker who will quiet down for the right queue. The other three I find to be fairly quiet dogs. My dogs are not for every person - they're soft - they're emotional - and they can be yappers. Better to tell them what they're getting into than have them think they're getting a lab in a 8lb body.

I think I must just be strange. I find labs and pit bulls much harder to handle and deal with than shelties or other herders, even the high drive ones. I just don't 'get' labs or bullies and have a hard time trying to figure them out. Maybe it's partially due to having a herding dog or two all the time growing up so that has always been the norm.

A sheltie can't be turned into an APBT but an APBT also can't be turned into a sheltie. Just because it's a sheltie or a BC instead of a lab or an APBT doesn't mean that dog will be more difficult for that person. It depends on the person in question.

However, the general care and maintenance of my herding breeds is much higher than the danes. They need walks, they need daily training, they need things to occupy their mind.

Don't people do that with all dogs? I've always walked the dogs, played with the dogs, taken them places, and in the past 3 years am almost always taking a class or two or three. I can honestly say that I don't see much difference overall in owning a papillon, especially Mia, versus owning Nikki. Both smart, both active, both eager to please. Both barked, both were bold and opinionated. The biggest difference has been grooming requirements.

 

[Psyfalcon]

Don't people do that with all dogs? I've always walked the dogs, played with the dogs, taken them places, and in the past 3 years am almost always taking a class or two or three. I can honestly say that I don't see much difference overall in owning a papillon, especially Mia, versus owning Nikki. Both smart, both active, both eager to please. Both barked, both were bold and opinionated. The biggest difference has been grooming requirements.

I think most dogs never go on trips, walk maybe once a week, and never attend a class of any sort.

 

[stafinois]

I think it's silly to group all herders that way. I mean, what does a Collie have in common with a Belgian other than basic shape? What does a BC have in common with an OES? There is a ton of variety in the group.

I see this a lot. Even people that own one type of herding breed are actively discouraged from getting a different breed. I hate to say it, but especially owning GSDs I get it from Malinois owners a lot. I couldn't POSSIBLY know what it's like to own a Mal because GSDs just "don't compare" and it's honestly quite f*cking offensive. I know what kind of dog I can handle, thanks.

I've never lived with a GSD, so I don't have a lot of direct experience. One thing that always stands out in my mind was a summer French Ring seminar. It was 100 degrees and miserable. The GSDs were sensible and laying quietly at their handler's feet or in their crates. The Malinois, however, were all spinning in their crates, or if leashed, up/down/up/down/spin/spin/down/spin, etc. It was scary because it was so hot. GSDs can certainly have a lot of drive an energy, but from what I've observed, they don't seem to lack in common sense and survival instinct that Malinois seem to.

This isn't anything new. I grew up with pit bulls and most people in the breed were ferociously protective of the breed. To be very honest I find pit bulls to be a generally breezy dog to own. They give so much pleasure it's hard to see the DA extra safety, the community caution, and so forth, as cons but that's not for everyone. Of course I also thought my pit bulls were high energy before my Malinois. Shamoo still puts most mals to a challenge as far as drive goes but she also seems content with hanging out sans stimuli, the Malinois are constantly looking for their next toy, game, trouble. That alone can set plenty on edge.

This. I grew up with tough, dog aggressive dogs. It was second nature to me. My APBT was easy, my AmStaf from performance breeding was more dog than my APBT, but still not difficult. Then I decided to get a Malinois. A guy in my club was an APBT guy that got into Malinois and kept telling me about how much more crazy they were. Whatever. The APBT that he still had wasn't from a line known for its ooomph. Then I got Harry, and I had to eat crow.

But then again, Harry and Stannis are two very different dogs. Honestly, I think that a dog like Stan would make a good starter Malinois. He's still a drivey, spastic idiot, so you still have to provide him with a lot of mental and physical outlets. But, he's quite social and non-reactive. I can take him anywhere like I do with Grant. We had our annual summer town festival last weekend, and I had Stan out at all of the events. He went to a children's carnival, a noisy/busy classic car and motorcycle show, then he was in the beer garden at a street dance with live music. None of it ruffled his feathers at all, except for an extremely aggressive husky that was being barely held back by an idiot that couldn't control it. Even then, all he did was hackle a little and look at the other dog like, "You need mental help," then he went on his way without a care in the world. I always said that the best dog in the world would have been Harry with Grant's stoic nature. I may have it in Stan.

 

[~Jessie~]

For me, Border Collies are easy. It's still hard for me to understand when people say "herding breeds are crazy and you have to be insane to want one!"

Honestly, Emma is more crazy/higher energy than Rory is, and she's a 3lb chihuahua. And then there is Rylie, who can break out of crates (a 4lb chihuahua). Rory has never attempted to leave his crate, so in many ways he's easier.

He does need a lot of attention and mental stimulation, but I give ALL my dogs that. I treat them each as an individual and give them what they need, breed aside!

 

[Paige]

The biggest thing I had to get use to was the Collie butt. As in where ever I am Bandit looks like he's growing out of my butt. Like so.