Double Merle Breeding

Laurelin

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#41
Sadly no, I just know the breeders I've spoken to that I trust and what they've told me. Pretty much observation and speaking to people more educated in the breed than I am. You really won't get numbers or statistics as of right now. It's a breed where barely any are health tested so you just aren't going to get the numbers and proof that would be nice to have.



A lot of breeders are, but it's going to be slow. I'm seeing more and more solids around than even just a couple years ago when I first looked into the breed. But change is hard, especially for old time breeders who have been doing what they do forever and a day.
Thanks. It's good to hear that they are making some strides in the right direction. That's a good start.

I did find an interesting study that puts deafness in merles against piebalds and dalmatians: http://www.lsu.edu/deafness/StrainMerleJVIM2009.pdf
 
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#42
"We completely avoid solid coloured or black and white coolies because we believe they are not "true coolies' but rather 'throw backs' and therefore, should not be bred from. The percentage of solid coloured coolies has been increasing with many breeders having difficulty finging homes for solids. We don't add to the problem by breeding a type that is often not desired."
Yep, Richie has that on his site. He's also not updated his site forever and has since then added a solid female to his breeding program. He's also outcrossed to a solid at least a couple times.

Shawn is great, I like a lot of her dogs and always put her as a recommendation when people ask me about breeders and am really looking forward to seeing what she producing out of her imports but I won't buy from her because I won't sign her contract.

That's what makes it hard in Koolies, like I said, there are very limited breeders that won't breed merle to merle and if you dont' find what you're looking for in them you either get out of the breed or you understand merle to merle is a reality in it.
 

OwnedByBCs

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#43
Koolies were bred to work, no? I would think that a working breed, especially, you would not want to risk something as serious as deafness or blindness. I have seen deaf dogs work, but it isn't the same. Do most Koolies go to working homes? What about the deaf/blind ones? Double Merles are often lacking pigment on their eyes and nose... don't you think that'd be a problem for a breed that is supposed to work outside for long periods of time? Besides, double merles can have "invisible" eye and hearing problems... just because it doesn't have a deformed eye doesn't mean it can see perfectly.

Honestly I had never heard of Koolies before I came here... but if merle x merle is something that is done regularly, if not always, I'm not sure its something I can support. I love working dogs and I love herding, but I did rescue for many years and dealt with the results of double merles, its heartbreaking.

My guess is that the reason Double Merle Koolies have fewer health problems than other double merles is that in most breeds, the practice IS considered taboo, and the majority of the breeders that do these sorts of breedings aren't really that responsible. Since it is commonplace in Koolies, thats probably not the case. You know?
 

SaraB

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#44
Also:

This was a quote I have saved from the Toolalla Koolie website... ironically if you google "double merle Koolies" a thread on Chaz referring to this very quote will appear.

"We completely avoid solid coloured or black and white coolies because we believe they are not "true coolies' but rather 'throw backs' and therefore, should not be bred from. The percentage of solid coloured coolies has been increasing with many breeders having difficulty finging homes for solids. We don't add to the problem by breeding a type that is often not desired."

I did not get permission to post the quote or email I recieved from a "famous" Koolie breeder in AU when I inquired about pups. Yes, she claimed that they do not produce any double merles in their merle to merle breedings, and that they had bred them out. Questions about the high white puppies in the litters she showed me, and their whereabouts, remained unanswered.

I love Koolies. I really do. I have a breeder in Canada (Avalon) who will not bred merle to merle. I'd love to consider her. However, I just can't buy a puppy knowing that it's quite possible several puppies died just so that mine could be born.
So is this the real reason for this thread? I know you pm'd me multiple times about your distaste for the breeder of my new puppy... I also know you've referenced it a few times in different threads. This was a decision I did not make lightly, choosing to go to a breeder that breeds merle x merle. But I absolutely need a dog that will fill my needs; a stable temperament, a working ethic, sound body and a certain size. I was not finding that anywhere else so I decided that I had to bend my principles a bit. This was a personal decision and I stand behind it. I'm not telling you to go buy a dog from him, I'm not pushing him on anyone as a breeder. Instead of bashing other people's breeders how about just supporting the ones you like? You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.... and hun, right now you haven't caught many.
 

Lizmo

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#45
Sort of spinning from my post in the other thread, would it be safe to make the assumption that part of the reason for Koolie merle/merle breedings working so well, is that something has been altered/modified in the breed so they don't end up with deaf and blind pups near as much as other breeds? Since most of those dogs that are deaf and blind end up being culled because they can't work, yet they're still breeding merle dogs, something is obviously different about those merle dogs. Dunno, maybe not.
 

Laurelin

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#46
Sort of spinning from my post in the other thread, would it be safe to make the assumption that part of the reason for Koolie merle/merle breedings working so well, is that something has been altered/modified in the breed so they don't end up with deaf and blind pups near as much as other breeds? Since most of those dogs that are deaf and blind end up being culled because they can't work, yet they're still breeding merle dogs, something is obviously different about those merle dogs. Dunno, maybe not.
Merle works in a fairly random fashion from what I have read. It dilutes pigment in patches, leaves pigment in others. The problem arises when a dog gets two doses of the merle gene and happens to be 'double diluted' around the eyes or in the ears. It is the lack of pigment that causes the developmental issues.

You can breed merle x merle in other breeds and end up with puppies that are fine too. Even if the double merle pups are not okay and are culled, you are theoretically getting only 1/4th of the litter as double merles. The rest will be solids or regular merles and will be fine.

So I wouldn't necessarily use the fact that people breed merle to merle often to say that breeding merle to merle in that breed is fine and causes lesser issues. It could be just that they're getting enough regular merles and solids to carry on the lines.
 
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#47
Sort of spinning from my post in the other thread, would it be safe to make the assumption that part of the reason for Koolie merle/merle breedings working so well, is that something has been altered/modified in the breed so they don't end up with deaf and blind pups near as much as other breeds? Since most of those dogs that are deaf and blind end up being culled because they can't work, yet they're still breeding merle dogs, something is obviously different about those merle dogs. Dunno, maybe not.
I think it's more likely that in a breed where merle is the only accepted color (or at least has been until recently), some collateral damage is just accepted.
 

Romy

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#48
Sort of spinning from my post in the other thread, would it be safe to make the assumption that part of the reason for Koolie merle/merle breedings working so well, is that something has been altered/modified in the breed so they don't end up with deaf and blind pups near as much as other breeds? Since most of those dogs that are deaf and blind end up being culled because they can't work, yet they're still breeding merle dogs, something is obviously different about those merle dogs. Dunno, maybe not.
It makes me wonder if they didn't select for a similar/same modifier as the one found in catahoulas, or breed out a lot of the piebald genes by culling deaf dogs generations ago.

Also, I really have to wonder if the majority of solid koolies are genetically solid and not actually merle as well. If the majority of solid catahoulas are genetically merle, and they weren't selected as heavily for merle like koolies were, then what is the likelihood there would be many solids at all left?
 

Laurelin

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#49
It makes me wonder if they didn't select for a similar/same modifier as the one found in catahoulas, or breed out a lot of the piebald genes by culling deaf dogs generations ago.

Also, I really have to wonder if the majority of solid koolies are genetically solid and not actually merle as well. If the majority of solid catahoulas are genetically merle, and they weren't selected as heavily for merle like koolies were, then what is the likelihood there would be many solids at all left?
Did they actually find a modifier? I thought they had just speculated that there must be one.

This kind of talk makes me wish I had stuck out my genetics degree.
 

vandog

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#50
So is this the real reason for this thread? I know you pm'd me multiple times about your distaste for the breeder of my new puppy... I also know you've referenced it a few times in different threads. This was a decision I did not make lightly, choosing to go to a breeder that breeds merle x merle. But I absolutely need a dog that will fill my needs; a stable temperament, a working ethic, sound body and a certain size. I was not finding that anywhere else so I decided that I had to bend my principles a bit. This was a personal decision and I stand behind it. I'm not telling you to go buy a dog from him, I'm not pushing him on anyone as a breeder. Instead of bashing other people's breeders how about just supporting the ones you like? You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.... and hun, right now you haven't caught many.
No, but I think that starting like it was on the other thread it was a good idea to move it here. I'm not "bashing him", he wrote that quote and chose to publish it on his/her(?) own website. I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't find anything in my "multiple times" of PM's talking about distaste of this breeder.
 

stafinois

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#51
Merle works in a fairly random fashion from what I have read. It dilutes pigment in patches, leaves pigment in others. The problem arises when a dog gets two doses of the merle gene and happens to be 'double diluted' around the eyes or in the ears. It is the lack of pigment that causes the developmental issues.

It's more than just lack of pigment. Lack of pigment doesn't cause microopthalmia or missing eyes.
 

Shai

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#52
Okay so I don't have a dog of any breed that comes in merle (well okay Kim probably has some merle-potential breeds in her somewhere but as she is a mystery mutt and spayed at that, it really doesn't matter), so this is coming from my Flat-Coat perspective:

I think it's almost universally agreed here that breeding M/? X M/? in the more common breeds we see in the U.S. -- Shelties, Collies, Aussies, BCs, Great Danes, etc. -- is morally reprehensible due to the documented fact that double merle pups born in those breeds are clearly at high risk of suffering from serious defects and there are many, many m/m dogs (often even littermates or closely related dogs to a desired merle) to choose from for a given breeding.

Dachshunds are an interesting case to me in that they are a breed that also has very minimal white in general and which comes in merle...and sometime double merle. I don't know what if studies have been done on the rate of detrimental effects of M/M in that breed. But since some M/M's clearly do cause serious issues and the merle gene is not particularly common in Dachshunds, there's really no reason for an educated person to take that risk when choosing a potential breeding pair.

Catahoulas and Koolies are, to me, somewhat different in that right or wrong due to historical selection the majority, even the vast majority, of their population is currently merle. Which leaves even well-meaning and very educated current breeders with the choice of either breeding in solid dogs of other breeds, breeding merle X merle, or losing a large swatch of their genetic diversity.

There are a lot of claims made about the incidence of deformities in M/M dogs of these breeds. To my knowledge there is not currently a reliable test for the Merle gene (please correct me if I am mistaken) since earlier ones were proven to actually be indicators of piebald and not reliable when it comes to merle so even people testing and keeping track would be making educated guesses. The relation to white markings makes logical sense to me but whether that's really true or how that relationship works exactly...I don't know.

What I do know is that the loss of genetic diversity in a breed is devastating. Look around at the purebred world and this is more than evident. I would hate to see the Koolie breed go down that path. Who knows what else is lurking in those genes that could crop up with increased homogeneity? Merle is, as others said, relatively easily identified...not all conditions are, and some can be downright infuriating to identify and trace.

So while I'm not and never will be a promoter of M/? X M/? breedings and the 1/4 chance for each individual to be M/M, I would much rather the goal of becoming a m/m- and M/m-only breed be a gradual and intelligent process and could not in good conscience universally condemn folks doing merle-to-merle breedings along the way. And with education, any luck, and a bit of faith in humanity as a whole I like to think that acceptance and use of solid dogs will become more and more popular...from what I'm hearing it's already trending that way.


/novel
 

ihartgonzo

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#53
I'm glad this thread was created because I like a double merle Cardigan. :) Really, I am. I just find it funny & maybe a TINY bit hypocritical that the same people who call a double merle Cardigan disgusting, gross, and awful... go on to PRAISE merle to merle Koolie breeders. Really?!? Really. When there are plenty of solid Koolies to breed the merles to. Not that I am against merle to merle Koolie breeding, when done responsibly. In doing research on the breed extensively years ago (as I've been a huge fan since before I even loved Cardigans), everything I read said that deaf/blind dogs were a rarity, as these are working dogs who are not bred to have lots of flashy white.

This is my opinion: merle to merle breedings can be done haphazardly, with high white content dogs who are not tested in any way, or they can be done responsibly with low white content dogs who have been health & dna tested. Imo, we see so many deaf and blind Aussies because they are bred by BYBs and show breeders alike to be "flashy", with as much white as possible. I've met a handful of actual working Aussies, and all of them had almost no white regardless of their color! It does make you think. Dalmatians are often born with hearing or sight problems, is it irresponsible to breed them?

Why is one breed ok but not the other? Experienced breeders who want to better their breed don't just put two dogs together for flashy colors... there is so much more behind it. Limiting breeding due to color is just as ignorant as breeding only for color imo, and if that sire and dam are the best fit for each other & are healthy, who knows what you could be missing out on if you don't breed them solely due to color? Casper's siblings were not double merle and are show champions with multiple sport titles. Casper has obedience, rally, therapy and service dog titles. & I'm sure he'd be a champion if double merles were allowed to show. Those are NICE dogs, and a huge asset to the breed. We breed dogs all of the time with risks of deformities, I mean, we breed dogs to have deformities intentionally!!! I don't see how one can support English Bulldog breeding, but call it morally reprehensible to carefully, responsibly breed a merle to a merle. I don't see everything in black and white and close my mind to things without getting the full story. But then again, I also see using a shock collar on a dog far more disgusting than responsibly breeding merles to merles. Diff'rent strokes.
 

SpringerLover

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#55
I think it's more likely that in a breed where merle is the only accepted color (or at least has been until recently), some collateral damage is just accepted.
*cringe!* That sounds so terrible but... how many puppies get culled and only the breeder knows? Do they merle-dog-breeders even keep track? Merle terrifies me, in any breed!
 

Romy

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#56
Did they actually find a modifier? I thought they had just speculated that there must be one.

This kind of talk makes me wish I had stuck out my genetics degree.
It hasn't been mapped yet. The way it's expressed makes them think there is one. I say yet, because there is a lot of interest both in breeders and with geneticists studying the merle gene and trying to figure out why it's expressed differently in catahoulas.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#58
Deafness is not the scariest thing about double merle breedings, why aren't you getting that?
This.



As for his abilities...He has his rally novice, he has his CD too? He's also a service dog? Is that the best choice seeing as he isn't fully capable himself? I mean he must be able to see and hear well enough to compete in rally (akc) within the rules but in my experience service dogs need all of their facilities to benefit their handlers to the best of their abilities.
 

JessLough

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#60
No, but I think that starting like it was on the other thread it was a good idea to move it here. I'm not "bashing him", he wrote that quote and chose to publish it on his/her(?) own website. I'm sorry if you feel that way, but I don't find anything in my "multiple times" of PM's talking about distaste of this breeder.
So how about you focus on something other than a dog that is already born, paid for and has absolutely nothing to do with you, rather than stalk Sara?
 

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