Double Merle Breeding

OwnedByBCs

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#81


This dog is genetically a merle, masked by the EE red gene, not one spot of merle on its entire body
 

Romy

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#82


This dog is genetically a merle, masked by the EE red gene, not one spot of merle on its entire body
It has blue eyes though, and that pale blond-red is very characteristic of sable merles. If I had a dog looking like that out of a merle parent I'd treat it like a merle.

When in doubt, you can get a dog tested for the gene anyway.

Edit: nevermind about the test, sad that it doesn't work.
 

Romy

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#83
Here are examples of Cryptic Merles, which can be considered part of the double merle scenario as they can pass off as black tri's to the uneducated eye.



The thing about the uneducated eye is they shouldn't be breeding anyway. If someone can't spot a cryptic merle, how are they going to evaluate their dog's other attributes fairly and make a good decision regarding potential mates outside of coat color.

On my computer screen, the bottom puppy appears to have a large merle patch on its neck. Both corgis have at least one blue eye, and one corgi appears to have a blue shoulder (that could be my monitor again). The first dog has merling on it's knee.
 

Romy

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#84
You know what's funny is all the dogs in this picture are merle. lol. I wish Gala had made it in because the difference between the sable merles and sables becomes a lot more apparent once you see it.

The other odd thing is the harlequin is the only cryptic one in the bunch. He has merle on his face now, but when he was born we seriously couldn't tell if he was merle or a really high white tri. I think he has a blue eye too, but can't remember.



And aha! Found some comparison pictures. Same setting/lighting.

The sable in the first pic is half sister to the sable merles in the second pic. All three dogs in the second pic are merle. You can see the difference in blondness. Also, the sable merles have varying degrees of blue/cracked eyes (not visible in this pic).

 
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#85
You beat me to it! I was just about to go dredge up that bit of info!

And I'm officially done with this thread, I still stand by my word "A Merle, is a Merle, is a Merle"... If you would like to prove otherwise, stop arm chair judging, and go do the science yourself to prove your point in reality. Not a scientist? Easy, buy a kennel, get some merle dogs, start breeding, record ALL your findings. That is how they use to do it.
 

Shai

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#86
Yeah that ruffly speaking post is from 2008 or 2009 (can't remember offhand, can't open link now due to phone issues). I was hoping for more recent info.

There is a company in canada offering the merle gene test but I question why it's not offered in the states and whether it's accurate as what limited info I've been able to gather makes it sound as though they bought out the tech after the previous owner discontinued the test due to lask of reliability.
 
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#87
Do you know of any data on the rates of blind/deaf dogs in koolies? I hear this but I don't ever see proof. I do think it's possible but I'm very much a person that likes numbers and proof and testing (like has been done in the catahoula, but I want MORE)



I honestly have thought that the deafness issues in dals and ACDs are probably close to being up there with the issues from merle. That makes the ethics a bit sticky to me. At any rate we'd need real numbers to go off of to say one is or isn't worse than the other.
The difference is ACDs and Dals have known about the deafness for a long time and have been testing for it for a long time. Koolies (from what I understand) are not doing testing. If you yell at the dog and it turns it's head, it can hear. That doesn't mean he isn't unilaterally deaf. I have had two ACD's who were Uni's and without the BAER testing you cannot tell.

All ACD puppies are BAER tested before going to their new homes and the owner knows 100% if the dog is full hearing, unilateral hearing, or deaf.
 

stafinois

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#88
It has blue eyes though, and that pale blond-red is very characteristic of sable merles. If I had a dog looking like that out of a merle parent I'd treat it like a merle.

When in doubt, you can get a dog tested for the gene anyway.

Edit: nevermind about the test, sad that it doesn't work.

If the dog didn't have blue eyes, you couldn't tell. Extension yellow is genetically different than sable. It inhibits the production of eumelanin in the coat, which is what merle acts on.
 

AdrianneIsabel

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#89
My friend just had her border collie tested with the wisdom panel as part of a database collection and they said they detected Merle in her EE Australian red. I know absolutely nothing about testing but I can ask if that pertains. He does have a tiny dark red splotch on his ear which could signify the Merle but without knowing what you were looking for it would look like a minor coat defect.
 
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#90
This is how I see it.

M/M is bad. This is my default stance.

Some Merles may be cryptic. People need to be on top of it before breeding a merle breed. An ee yellow dog, Aussies with their merle docked... Bad things might happen, but they need to be minimized and learned from.

Koolies and Houlas? Maybe the gene does act differently in the darker dogs, or a variety of the gene with the worst problems has been bred out. Maybe it is a combination of Irish Spotting or Piebald and Merle that causes the worst of it.

We don't have any proof though besides some people saying so (and breeders do have a major incentive to down play the problem). The breed clubs should be funding real studies on merle in their breeds.

1. How is the blindness and deafness rate compared to other merle?
2. Do white patterns or "solid colored" merles have the same effect? How much white? How solid does the dog need to be? Is it reliable enough to breed from the phenotype?

Until it can be scientifically show that something is different, merle/merle is bad.
 
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#91
The difference is ACDs and Dals have known about the deafness for a long time and have been testing for it for a long time. Koolies (from what I understand) are not doing testing. If you yell at the dog and it turns it's head, it can hear. That doesn't mean he isn't unilaterally deaf. I have had two ACD's who were Uni's and without the BAER testing you cannot tell.

All ACD puppies are BAER tested before going to their new homes and the owner knows 100% if the dog is full hearing, unilateral hearing, or deaf.
True, but especially in Dals, the deafness rate is still horrendous. They will typically born seeing at least though.

White is a really interesting problem in dogs. M/M must work differently from the s^w Dal/ACD because of the eyes. Super pale ee labradors/goldens don't seem to be having problems but Samoyeds and Great Pyrs do but at a reported rate lower than Dals. They also come in cream and seem to be a very light (chinchilla) ee red.
 

sillysally

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#92
This is how I see it.

M/M is bad. This is my default stance.

Some Merles may be cryptic. People need to be on top of it before breeding a merle breed. An ee yellow dog, Aussies with their merle docked... Bad things might happen, but they need to be minimized and learned from.

Koolies and Houlas? Maybe the gene does act differently in the darker dogs, or a variety of the gene with the worst problems has been bred out. Maybe it is a combination of Irish Spotting or Piebald and Merle that causes the worst of it.

We don't have any proof though besides some people saying so (and breeders do have a major incentive to down play the problem). The breed clubs should be funding real studies on merle in their breeds.

1. How is the blindness and deafness rate compared to other merle?
2. Do white patterns or "solid colored" merles have the same effect? How much white? How solid does the dog need to be? Is it reliable enough to breed from the phenotype?

Until it can be scientifically show that something is different, merle/merle is bad.
This pretty much sums up my feelings the subject.

As to people getting feathers ruffled as to why the thread was started--who cares why it was started? It's been an interesting and educational thread...
 

Aleron

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#93
True, but especially in Dals, the deafness rate is still horrendous. They will typically born seeing at least though.
I think the bi-lateral deafness rate in Dals is around 10%. Not ideal obviously but I wouldn't call it horrendous either.
 

Shai

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#94
I think the bi-lateral deafness rate in Dals is around 10%. Not ideal obviously but I wouldn't call it horrendous either.
I guess that depends on how you look at it.

The rate of deafness in double merles is, I assume, much much higher than that. As in...the vast majority of them in the breeds we commonly see here. But there's a relatively easy fix: stop breeding double merles.

If Dals are 10% then yeah that's low...compared to double merles. But my understanding is that is breed-wide so the fix for that is ????
 

Gypsydals

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#95
I guess that depends on how you look at it.

The rate of deafness in double merles is, I assume, much much higher than that. As in...the vast majority of them in the breeds we commonly see here. But there's a relatively easy fix: stop breeding double merles.

If Dals are 10% then yeah that's low...compared to double merles. But my understanding is that is breed-wide so the fix for that is ????
Which breed are you talking about here Shai? Dalmatians? Here in the USA about 10% of puppies are bilaterally deaf, 20% are uni-lateral. These figures may have changed over the last few years, I can't find anything recent(most recent is 2006, I think). Over seas the deafness rate is lower. The current(2010) UK data shows 4% are bilaterally deaf and about 10% are unilateral.
As far as what is being done about deaf dals, its about how you breed. Even though you can't guarantee no deaf puppies. I feel you can decrease the it by not breeding certain ways. You don't breed to unis or bilateral deaf dogs, and personally you don't breed to blue eyed dogs. Its all about knowing what is behind the dogs you are breeding.
 

Shai

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#96
Which breed are you talking about here Shai? Dalmatians? Here in the USA about 10% of puppies are bilaterally deaf, 20% are uni-lateral. These figures may have changed over the last few years, I can't find anything recent(most recent is 2006, I think). Over seas the deafness rate is lower. The current(2010) UK data shows 4% are bilaterally deaf and about 10% are unilateral.
As far as what is being done about deaf dals, its about how you breed. Even though you can't guarantee no deaf puppies. I feel you can decrease the it by not breeding certain ways. You don't breed to unis or bilateral deaf dogs, and personally you don't breed to blue eyed dogs. Its all about knowing what is behind the dogs you are breeding.
Sorry I was just using her number as an example -- should have verified the number before quoting it. I have no doubt that the Dal world is working hard on the issue -- these sorts of problems can be infuriating to get under control and eliminated! I truly hope the Dal world is able to beat this problem.
 
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#97
About Yata Hae for those that asked:

1) website says health testing is done, what kind of health testing? The info is nowhere to be found, I asked and she said "it's on the website," except it's not.

2) she does in fact breed merle x merle. Why does she never have solid colored pups? Also look for yourself at the sires/dams: http://www.germancoolies.com/ They are merle.

3) why is she the only breeder with those colors? She is the only C/Koolie breeder with those colors.

4) where did her original breeding stock come from? Out of thin air? She said she imported them, but refused to say where they came from.

5) why is she still breeding dogs when she doesn't live with them? With her last litter she had someone go to wherever her dogs are, get the puppies, and raise the puppies for her. Why breed when someone else has to raise the litter? Why not take a break from breeding until she can be with her dogs again?

All of that aside, yeah great breeder....
 

Aleron

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#98
Sorry I was just using her number as an example -- should have verified the number before quoting it. I have no doubt that the Dal world is working hard on the issue -- these sorts of problems can be infuriating to get under control and eliminated! I truly hope the Dal world is able to beat this problem.
The number is from DCA: "Deafness is NOT uncommon in Dalmatians. It has been estimated that from 10% to 12% of the breed is deaf. Recent discoveries in the genetics of deafness have made it possible to reduce the incidence of deafness, with the possibility of virtually eliminating it in the future." http://www.thedca.org/deaf1.html
 

stafinois

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#99
About Yata Hae for those that asked

she does in fact breed merle x merle. Why does she never have solid colored pups? Also look for yourself at the sires/dams: http://www.germancoolies.com/ They are merle.

I don't know about the rest, but I saw solid pups without digging.






As far as color, did you mean the dilutes? Linds mentioned that they are closely related to the Kelpie, a breed that does have dilution in the gene pool.
 

Shai

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The number is from DCA: "Deafness is NOT uncommon in Dalmatians. It has been estimated that from 10% to 12% of the breed is deaf. Recent discoveries in the genetics of deafness have made it possible to reduce the incidence of deafness, with the possibility of virtually eliminating it in the future." http://www.thedca.org/deaf1.html
Thanks for providing the source for your number. To repeat: I should have verified the number before quoting it.

I hope they are correct that they found a way to reduce/eliminate deafness in Dals -- that would be wonderful. To repeat: I have no doubt that the Dal world is working hard on the issue -- these sorts of problems can be infuriating to get under control and eliminated! I truly hope the Dal world is able to beat this problem.
 

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