Double Merle Breeding

SaraB

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#21
Risky business....

I don't think koolies are exempt from that risk either.

Surely they should have the same ethical breeding as any other merle breed?

Not to mention the rest - titles, conformation, work ability - whatever it is you're breeding FOR.
Not really sure how the bolded statement applies to this conversation? I haven't heard of any koolie breeders that arn't breeding for a purpose seeing as though the majority are working bred dogs.
 

SaraB

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#22
What do breeders usually do with double merles? I imagine all of the old school breeders cull them, is that still done or are they sold as pets?
There are some dane breeders that find people to raise the dogs intact so that they can be incorporated into the breeding program if they grow up nicely. Some breeders just cull, in both definitions of the word (altering and placing in a pet home, or euthanizing)
 

elegy

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#23
And many BYB's who end up with them hock them on add sites as something special with a special price tag :rolleyes:.
I know someone who bought a double dapple Dachshund. It says right on the paperwork that that's what he is. They didn't know what that meant, despite being longtime Dachshund owners. And he was, of course, fancy and "rare" looking.

They were terribly upset when they discovered that he's deaf. His eyes are also abnormal, though he is visual.

It's a shame they had to learn that lesson the hard way. I wish more people would do their homework before plunking down their cash money.
 

SarahHound

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#24
I honestly don't know enough about merles to comment, I don't think I've ever known a merle dog. But anything that risks the lives of future puppies just seems pointless to me.
 
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#25
Bad stuff, especially if its for ribbon chasing.

Its a 1/4 chance of being heavily crippled. That would be 1 or 2 out of every breeding on average.
Quality of life has to be suspect for a dog both blind and deaf.
A blind/deaf dog can not herd.

Its really not that hard to not breed two merles together. For the most part it is pretty **** obvious that the two dogs in front of you are merle. Yet people do it, so they can get a bit more money for the pretty dogs or the flashier show dog.
 

Laurelin

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#27
I haven't read the thread all the way yet.

I don't agree with merle x merle breeding at all. In collies, shelties, aussies, etc it's just pointless. There are PLENTY of solids to chose from that there is no need.

In Koolies and Catahoulas... I don't like it there either. I do hear that merle behaves differently in those breeds but I have seen enough high white catahoulas to wonder how true that is. When I looked at koolies briefly years ago I did hear from a breeder that people lie about producing double merles. And from what she said it was fairly often. Don't know how true it is and I know there's a lot of debate in the koolie world now between that breeder and others but it was enough to give me the heebie jeebies. Since then I have seen quite a few koolie litters that follow the traditional merle x merle pattern as far as odds go with one or two dogs having a HIGH amount of white. Do I know for sure those dogs are blind or deaf or both? No, but there's enough white that it makes me wonder if they're not impaired in some way.

I do think there's a problem if a breed is now a high number of merles. Best case scenario I can see is to encourage keeping solids to breed from and try to simultaneously breed away from merle x merle breedings while keeping genetic diversity in the breeds. It may take a couple generations.

Honestly, that is probably the main reason koolies are not on my radar. I can't get behind it and in my brief foray into looking at the breed left me completely uneasy that the breeders are being truthful. Although papillon breeders are certainly not all saints when it comes to being honest about health either but that's another story.

ETA: I WOULD very much like to see some research done in koolies and catahoulas that is more unbiased than I trust breeders to be documenting what the risks are. My gut is that it is probably less with less white spotting in the breeds but I think there still has to be a risk just based on the litters I've seen pictures of.
 

Romy

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#28
ETA: I WOULD very much like to see some research done in koolies and catahoulas that is more unbiased than I trust breeders to be documenting what the risks are. My gut is that it is probably less with less white spotting in the breeds but I think there still has to be a risk just based on the litters I've seen pictures of.
Don Abney's website compiled a bunch of interesting research about merle in catahoulas.

http://www.donabney.com/issue_merle.php

Apparently the combination of the genes for piebald markings (irish markings) and double merle greatly increases the chances of deafness/eye problems. Most catahoulas don't carry the gene for piebald markings. Interestingly, he also says that a lot of solid colored dogs used in breedings test out as carriers of merle even though they don't show it, and many merle and even some solid colored dogs tested out as double merles. So obviously they've got some other modifiers modifying the merle.

The majority of dark and solid colored Catahoulas are being wrongly identified as non-merle, when in all likelihood the majority of them are single merle. With all the dark and black dogs tested, it appears that when there is white coloration anywhere on the dog other than the chest, it is probably a single merle. This can best be identified in puppies, as the coat may sometime darken and the white will disappear. Dark colored dogs may display their merle coat variance when sunlight is shining on them.
If you scroll to the bottom of the article it shows a top-view litter of puppies eating from a dish. The puppies were DNA tested to see which were merles and which weren't. The results surprised me for sure.

ETA: Here's another really interesting link: http://www.cobradog.com/current-projects.php
 

Locke

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#29
I'm pretty much whole-heartedly against merlexmerle breeding regardless of breed.
If the risk is there, it's not worth it.
 

Laurelin

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#31
I've read that one in catahoulas and I find it very interesting for sure. I'd like to see more done. Even where they do test breedings of dogs with varying white and whatnot.

It is very odd to me though that I have seen a handful of typical double merle catahoulas in both the shelter I worked in and then pictures on line. There is a deaf double merle (high white) catahoula on my other forum. So my question is why is that dog deaf when so many double merle catahoulas are fine? What is the risk of ending up with a puppy like that dog in your litter? If you breed merle x merle where one dog looks like a solid?
 

Romy

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#33
I've read that one in catahoulas and I find it very interesting for sure. I'd like to see more done. Even where they do test breedings of dogs with varying white and whatnot.

It is very odd to me though that I have seen a handful of typical double merle catahoulas in both the shelter I worked in and then pictures on line. There is a deaf double merle (high white) catahoula on my other forum. So my question is why is that dog deaf when so many double merle catahoulas are fine? What is the risk of ending up with a puppy like that dog in your litter? If you breed merle x merle where one dog looks like a solid?
In the article he says that there are a few lines that do carry the piebald gene. If it's true, like he's hypothesizing, the piebald + merle = a lot more deafness, that would make sense.

When people are BYBing catahoulas for their markings the flashy piebalds are the ones used. And from the early results of their testing, even dogs with minimal white can be double merle. BYBing for more flash = lines of catahoulas showing the same issues that you see in great danes, collies, shelties, and all the other merle breeds where the piebald gene is common. It would be fascinating to get samples of the flashy catahoulas with issues and see if they're piebald carriers as well.
 
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#34
I'm just curious why you think a supposed Catahoula mix should even be brought up as an example.
It's a good example of microopthalmia regardless of breed.
^^^Exactly, a Merle, is a merle, is a merle. Doesn't matter what breed, you will always have the chance at producing a dog just like that one eventually, no matter what. AGAIN, I point to none other than, the Harlequin Pincher project, look how great that ended :rolleyes:.
 
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#35
Okie Dokie:

Koolies are a merle breed. Right, wrong, good, bad it is what it is. If every single breeder stopped breeding merle to merle right now you would see some serious outcrossing to other breeds happening because there just aren't enough solids. There is no way to keep this breed as it is, healthy, diverse and unique if merle to merle was to come to a halt today. It would be devastating to the breed and you would loose so much genetic diversity and great lines of dogs. And that is not worth it in my opinion.

But regardless that isn't going to happen and that's the reality of it. Most breeders breed merle to merle on a frequent if not always basis. As I said, solids are slowly being incorporated into breeding programs and being used but it's not a fast process and you still aren't going to find many breeders that won't breed merle to merle if the right merle fits another merle. Take it or leave it, that is how it is.

Do they get deaf and blind puppies? Yep. But, it doesn't happen as often or at as high of rate as you see in a lot of the other breeds that haven't been bred like them for as many years as they have been bred. To be honest, I would lay down money that you see deafness much less often in them than you do in some none merle breeds such as Dalmatians.

So you don't want to get a dog from a breeder that breeds merle to merle? Well then don't get a Koolie. Or be prepared to be limited to one or two breeders or catch one of the others when they happen to be breeding their one solid. It's not ideal, and I wish it wasn't like that. But it is and I will NOT look down on breeders who do it when they have more years of experience breeding Koolies than I have been alive.

And now I'm quoting what I said in the other thread

Ok, so since Koolies have been brought up multiple times now I'll give what info I have.

First off they are considered a merle breed and have been thought of like that for pretty much ever. They also look very similar to Kelpies so it's my understanding that many people considered solids to be Kelpies (or throw backs) and the merles real Koolies.

Something that needs to be understood is that the founders in this breed and many of the breeders to this day are not people educated in genetics. They have bucket loads of common sense and experience but not any scientific learning. Because of that things were assumed, like the fact that if it wasn't merle it wasn't a Koolie. And it's hard when you have a ranch and want to breed your Koolie to another and Tom over there says "I have Koolies!" but it's a solid black that looks like the Kelpie that likes to roam around from Tims farm.

Yes, we all know that you can get a merle even if Tim's Kelpie got to Toms merle Koolie. But it was just the way it worked. Merle=Koolie Solid=Not Koolie.

Now, because of this they worked with the merle to merle rather than just not do it. Merle dogs that produced a lot of high whites were not bred, dogs that produced a lot of nicely marked dogs that could hear and see fine where bred more. Blind or deaf? They were culled. Dogs with more solid patches and less white showed to produce less issues so they were bred more.

When you have a breed that's bred like that for generations upon generations, working away from defects while still breeding merle to merle I think it does make a difference. The chance of getting a double merle doesn't change but the consequences do because they have been bred away from producing dogs with defects.

I also think cryptic merles or very very minimally merled merles become much more common which seems to lead to dogs with good pigment that produce nicely colored double merles. I would be super curious to see if a lot of the solids came up genetically as actually solids honestly.

In addition I think they have an edge, much like Catahoula's because they are not bred for a lot of white in Irish Trim markings. I really think those Irish trims, with the white all around the head and neck really really add to the occurrence of blind and deafness in double merles.

And honestly, at the end of the day these ranchers and breeders aren't going to not breed their best worker with their other best worker because both are merle and try to find a solid that matches their dog when those are not anywhere near as common in the breed.

Times are changing and solids are slowly being brought into a lot of breeders stock but it's still one solid for every ten merles and that makes merle to merle a reality in the breed.

ETA: Koolies don't have a small population, they just are a mostly merle population.
There is a certain part of me, from a scientific standpoint, that would find it interesting to try and do just what other breeds have done and develop a way where it's not nearly as high risk to breed merle x merle. But the moral part of me acknowledges that it's not necessary therefore can't really find a good reason to do it.
Me too. I wish you could get all the Koolie breeders to test their stock to see how many solids are merle and how many

Koolies I can't really comment, but it is a genetic impossibility that merle to merle won't produce double merle puppies.
A: No one, on this forum at least, has stated that you can never get double merles in Koolies while breeding merle to merle. Though you are wrong that it's a genetic impossibility to not get double merles in a merle to merle breeding. A 1/4 chance is just that, 1/4.

Sometimes I do hear people (not on here) say that Koolies don't produce double merles. But I believe that has more to do with not understanding genetics and hearing others who also don't understand how it works falsely saying that all double merles are blind and deaf. So you have people who have a double merle that can see and hear convinced their dog must not be a double merle.

What do breeders usually do with double merles? I imagine all of the old school breeders cull them, is that still done or are they sold as pets?
In Koolies more times than not if they can't hear or see they will be culled. If they can see and hear then they're just sold like any other dog

Its a 1/4 chance of being heavily crippled. That would be 1 or 2 out of every breeding on average.
No. There is a 1/4 chance of being double merle and double merle does not equal blind and/or deaf.


Don Abney's website compiled a bunch of interesting research about merle in catahoulas.

http://www.donabney.com/issue_merle.php

Apparently the combination of the genes for piebald markings (irish markings) and double merle greatly increases the chances of deafness/eye problems. Most catahoulas don't carry the gene for piebald markings. Interestingly, he also says that a lot of solid colored dogs used in breedings test out as carriers of merle even though they don't show it, and many merle and even some solid colored dogs tested out as double merles. So obviously they've got some other modifiers modifying the merle.
I didn't know Abney had that on his site, nice to see my musings have some validity to them. I've long thought the Irish Markings are one of the big issues in merle to merle and deaf/blindness.

I so would love for some of the long established Koolie kennels to be tested to see what all they are.

^^^Exactly, a Merle, is a merle, is a merle. Doesn't matter what breed, you will always have the chance at producing a dog just like that one eventually, no matter what. AGAIN, I point to none other than, the Harlequin Pincher project, look how great that ended :rolleyes:.
Actually, it does matter the breed. You still have a chance but I truly believe not the same percent of chance. And so yes, using a dog of unknown heritage and breeding to make your point DOES matter in this case. And the thing is, no one is denying it doesn't happen, just that the frequency is less.
 

vandog

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#36
I don't know if you just used poor word choice or if you have no idea how genetics works. Breeding two merles together has a 25% chance of producing a non-merle, 50% chance of producing a heterozygous merle, and a 25% chance of producing a double merle. That means there is a 75% chance of NOT producing a double merle! You can have an entire litter with NO double merles even if both parents are merle.
Poor word choice - I was trying to refer to the breeders who claim that it is impossible to produce a double merle when they breed their merles together.
 

Laurelin

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#37
Do they get deaf and blind puppies? Yep. But, it doesn't happen as often or at as high of rate as you see in a lot of the other breeds that haven't been bred like them for as many years as they have been bred. To be honest, I would lay down money that you see deafness much less often in them than you do in some none merle breeds such as Dalmatians.
Do you know of any data on the rates of blind/deaf dogs in koolies? I hear this but I don't ever see proof. I do think it's possible but I'm very much a person that likes numbers and proof and testing (like has been done in the catahoula, but I want MORE)

What is the story with Yata Hae? Pm would work too. I talked to them ages ago and they were adamant that the problems in koolies in merle x merle was the same as in any other breed.

I honestly have thought that the deafness issues in dals and ACDs are probably close to being up there with the issues from merle. That makes the ethics a bit sticky to me. At any rate we'd need real numbers to go off of to say one is or isn't worse than the other.

I think the issue for me in merle is that typically it is easy to spot thus merle x merle is easy to avoid. So it's totally avoidable in most cases. I do think it would take time to get more solids in koolies but I really just cannot see why breeders wouldn't attempt it. Why not try to improve things as we learn more about genetics?
 

stafinois

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#38
Solids are rare BECAUSE they are breeding merle to merle. If they started breeding merle to solid, they would not only get more solids, but likely increase litter sizes. I would bet that a lot of pups are true lethal whites that are being reabsorbed.
 
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#39
Do you know of any data on the rates of blind/deaf dogs in koolies? I hear this but I don't ever see proof. I do think it's possible but I'm very much a person that likes numbers and proof and testing (like has been done in the catahoula, but I want MORE)
Sadly no, I just know the breeders I've spoken to that I trust and what they've told me. Pretty much observation and speaking to people more educated in the breed than I am. You really won't get numbers or statistics as of right now. It's a breed where barely any are health tested so you just aren't going to get the numbers and proof that would be nice to have.

I do think it would take time to get more solids in koolies but I really just cannot see why breeders wouldn't attempt it. Why not try to improve things as we learn more about genetics?
A lot of breeders are, but it's going to be slow. I'm seeing more and more solids around than even just a couple years ago when I first looked into the breed. But change is hard, especially for old time breeders who have been doing what they do forever and a day.
 

vandog

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#40
Also:

This was a quote I have saved from the Toolalla Koolie website... ironically if you google "double merle Koolies" a thread on Chaz referring to this very quote will appear.

"We completely avoid solid coloured or black and white coolies because we believe they are not "true coolies' but rather 'throw backs' and therefore, should not be bred from. The percentage of solid coloured coolies has been increasing with many breeders having difficulty finging homes for solids. We don't add to the problem by breeding a type that is often not desired."

I did not get permission to post the quote or email I recieved from a "famous" Koolie breeder in AU when I inquired about pups. Yes, she claimed that they do not produce any double merles in their merle to merle breedings, and that they had bred them out. Questions about the high white puppies in the litters she showed me, and their whereabouts, remained unanswered.

I love Koolies. I really do. I have a breeder in Canada (Avalon) who will not bred merle to merle. I'd love to consider her. However, I just can't buy a puppy knowing that it's quite possible several puppies died just so that mine could be born.
 

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