Do you believe in spanking kids?

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Squishy22

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#61
I am just saying it would be better to make working out fun, then making it punishment. If parents would get out and actually work out with their children and make an effort to make it fun they would be more likely to enjoy it. So I dont think that kind of stuff should be used as punishment.

OK take their TV away? I dont think kids should have that much TV to take away to begin with. I think parents need to teach their children there are much better things to do than watch TV and play video games. More active things. But then again thats taking this subject a little further than intended I'm sure.
I see where you're coming from. Yes, working out should be fun for kids. But I dont think doing push-ups is something a child needs to do. Children can get their bodies in shape other more fun ways like ridding bikes or playing a game like tag and such. I was just trying to say that push-ups are a good punishment AND its beneficial to their bodies. Just not something they should like to do to be in shape. I lift weights and do push-ups, but not because its fun, but because its good for your health and I like seeing the results... something that young children arent going to understand.
 

~Tucker&Me~

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#62
I do not believe in hitting children.

Some of you say that some kids need it.

Just like some people say SOME dogs need to be hit to 'show 'em who's boss!'.

I think there are better, more effective ways of teaching children that do not involve violence. I'm know you CAN raise a child with spankings (just like you CAN train a dog with pain) but why would you want to when there are painless, equally if not MORE effective methods?

Reggin, I hear ya.

Push up are work. Hitting is VIOLENCE.

~Tucker
 
S

Squishy22

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#63
I do not believe in hitting children.

Some of you say that some kids need it.

Just like some people say SOME dogs need to be hit to 'show 'em who's boss!'.

I think there are better, more effective ways of teaching children that do not involve violence. I'm know you CAN raise a child with spankings (just like you CAN train a dog with pain) but why would you want to when there are painless, equally if not MORE effective methods?

Reggin, I hear ya.

Push up are work. Hitting is VIOLENCE.

~Tucker
Ok, I am glad someone understands my point. No offense to zoe!
 

daaqa

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#64
i don't equate proper, balanced spanking with violence. i've been spanked by one person, abused by another - and frankly, i sure as heck knew the difference!

people can take ANY punishment to an abusive level, even withholding what the kid wants can turn into abuse if done incorrectly.

if you personally have been improperly spanked, that doesn't mean that everyone who spanks, spanks like your parents did. also, for others, just because you personally didn't need to be spanked doesn't mean that every kid is the same as you.

also, i cannot count the times i have seen people adamantly state that dogs and people are NOT the same, and it is wrong to try to humanize a dog. yet, here is a different topic and now all of a sudden kids and dogs are no different? imo, they are very different indeed.

one similarity, however, is that they both cannot be generalized. each situation must be weighed with wisdom - not blanket statements.
 

showpug

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#66
It's not really an issue of if I agree with spanking or not, I just know I could never hit my daughter no matter what she did wrong. It's just not in me...
 

Doberluv

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#67
Nope....I do not believe in physically striking a child. I have and have had the ability to raise children and dogs who all turned out to be relatively happy, well behaved, productive youngsters as well as adults. I don't believe in painful physical aversives. I do have other means of training. Even back when I had young kids, before I learned much about the science of behavior, I still used a lot of what I use now....wish I had known more about it then. I made some mistakes to be sure.

But no....I don't believe in physically hurting another living being as a way of teaching. There are other ways.

A lack of spanking is not the cause of ill behaved children or dogs. That concept is something very much like something in behaviorism called ...."superstitious behavior." There can be several things going on at once, but you pick one of those things and attribute it as the conclusion. This is unparsinomious or scientifically illogical. You can't draw conclusions by taking a multitude of factors and arbitrarily choosing one of those factors as the cause of something without proofing, which obviously has not been done. You can not randomly single out one aspect of all the many other aspects.

No....it is not a lack of spanking which causes ill behaved children. Its a lack of effective training skills. Hitting, spanking, causing pain stops behavior. But there can be horrible fall out for both dogs and children. There are many known detrimental side effects to physical or harsh aversives. If it turns out all right for some people, then there may have been other factors which compensated for it. But you do not know all the other factors which may affect your child. The risk of fall out is greater than the value IMO, of spanking.

Simply stopping behavior, (or supressing it...stopping the signs or symptoms of an underlying issue) isn't all I'm looking for when teaching an animal or a human child. Teaching is my goal and harsh aversives, IMO have no place in teaching.

So, after reading this whole thread, mostly all I saw was talk about what kind of punishment. It was all about punishment. There is a whole lot more to teaching and training than punishment. I still don't know why everyone puts the emphasis on punishment. That's the first thing everybody thinks of....what kind of punishment shall I use? What can I do when Johnny does this particular rotten behavior? Wait for the rotten behvavior to develop into a full blown problem and then whamo...spank him.

If people, in general..... would take some time to learn something about the science of behavior, they would discover ways to set things up so many of these "spankable" behaviors don't manifiest themselves in the first place. There are ways to prevent many problems. There's positive reinforcement. There's giving alternatives. There are many, many techniques to train a child or a dog without using painful physical punishment.

There are laws of behavior, like laws of physics. Many of the things I talk about are not just my opinion, something I dreamed up.... and they're not just anybody's opinion either. They are based on proof and behavioral law.
 

~Tucker&Me~

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#68
Nope....I do not believe in physically striking a child. I have and have had the ability to raise children and dogs who all turned out to be relatively happy, well behaved, productive youngsters as well as adults. I don't believe in physical aversives. I do have other means of training. Even back when I had young kids, before I learned much about the science of behavior, I still used a lot of what I use now....wish I had known more about it then. I made some mistakes.

But no....I don't believe in physically hurting another living being as a way of teaching. There are other ways.

A lack of spanking is not the cause of ill behaved children or dogs. That concept is something very much like something in behaviorism called ...."superstitious behavior." There can be several things going on at once, but you pick one of those things and attribute it as the conclusion. This is unparsinomious or scientifically illogical. You can't draw conclusions by taking a multitude of factors and arbitrarily choosing one of those factors as the cause of something without proofing, which obviously has not been done. You can not randomly single out one aspect of all the many other aspects.

No....it is not a lack of spanking which causes ill behaved children. Its a lack of effective training skills. Hitting, spanking, causing pain stops behavior. But there can be horrible fall out for both dogs and children. There are many known detrimental side effects to physical or harsh aversives. If it turns out all right for some people, then there may have been other factors which compensated for it. But you do not know all the other factors which may affect your child. The risk of fall out is greater than the value IMO, of spanking.

Simply stopping behavior, (or supressing it...stopping the signs or symptoms of an underlying issue) isn't all I'm looking for when teaching an animal or a human child. Teaching is my goal and harsh aversives, IMO have no place in teaching.

So, after reading this whole thread, mostly all I saw was talk about what kind of punishment. It was all about punishment. There is a whole lot more to teaching and training than punishment. I still don't know why everyone puts the emphasis on punishment. That's the first thing everybody thinks of....what kind of punishment shall I use? What can I do when Johnny does this particular rotten behavior? Wait for the rotten behvavior to develop into a full blown problem and then whamo...spank him.

If people, in general..... would take some time to learn something about the science of behavior, they would discover ways to set things up so many of these "spankable" behaviors don't manifiest themselves in the first place. There are ways to prevent many problems. There's positive reinforcement. There's giving alternatives. There are many, many techniques to train a child or a dog without using painful physical punishment.

There are laws of behavior, like laws of physics. Many of the things I talk about are not just my opinion, something I dreamed up.... and they're not just anybody's opinion either. They are based on proof and behavioral law.
:hail: :hail: :hail:

~Tucker
 

zoe08

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#69
Positive reinforcement works for dogs, but that just teaches them good things. If you ignore that your dog is chewing on your shoe and don't address the behavior, they will keep doing it.

Kids will make mistakes no matter how much positive reinforcement you use. Then when they do make mistakes they have to understand consequences and responsibility. Nobody thinks it is important to be responsible anymore. And people say oh spanking is bad, so people get the idea in general that any punishment is bad and children these days just cannot behave. But they still get the "treat."

Every child is different and there is not a one-size-fits all method for teaching children how to behave. Just like all children don't learn school stuff the same way and at the same rate.
 
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Squishy22

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#70
i don't equate proper, balanced spanking with violence. i've been spanked by one person, abused by another - and frankly, i sure as heck knew the difference!

people can take ANY punishment to an abusive level, even withholding what the kid wants can turn into abuse if done incorrectly.

if you personally have been improperly spanked, that doesn't mean that everyone who spanks, spanks like your parents did. also, for others, just because you personally didn't need to be spanked doesn't mean that every kid is the same as you.

also, i cannot count the times i have seen people adamantly state that dogs and people are NOT the same, and it is wrong to try to humanize a dog. yet, here is a different topic and now all of a sudden kids and dogs are no different? imo, they are very different indeed.

one similarity, however, is that they both cannot be generalized. each situation must be weighed with wisdom - not blanket statements.
Yes, dogs do NOT think like humans. We are more advanced, but when you hit a living thing it causes pain out of physical violence no matter if its a human, a cat, a monkey, a frog, or a dog. Hey that rhymed, lol.

I just dont know why its ok to hit a child just because they know why they are being hit. Doesnt make sense to me.
 

Zoom

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#71
I don't have kids currently and Lord knows that if I had spanked the kids I used to baby-sit, there would have been some SERIOUS consequences to pay. I was spanked a couple times as a kid, couldn't tell you for what anymore, but I do remember the spanking itself...well I think one time was for "running away" and crossing a street to do it. Apparently I told my parents I was going to walk down to the store or something, they said no but since I said I was going to do it, by golly I did. I was also 3 years old at the time.

Assuming I do have kids, if they're anything like me, making them stand in a corner is going to work pretty well, since I HATED being motionless for any period of time unless I had a book in my hand. And depending on the kid, if a warning and stern look doesn't work, well I think I'm just going to have the cleanest kitchen floors and neatly trimmed grass on the block. It's amazing what a 50cent toothbrush and elbow grease will clean....and the precision you get with a pair of scissors when down on eye level with the grass!... :D

Actually, the few times I was grounded when I got older, taking away social and phone/computer privledges for 2 weeks was highly effective with me.

So in answer, I think consistent parenting can do a lot more than resorting to spanking and I'm going to try as hard as I can not to. Like I said up above, there are innumerable things I could come up with as effective punishment that doesn't involve me laying a hand on my child.
 
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#72
I think that a swat on the bottom when a child is little is ok. It's not about inflicting pain on a child, but getting their attention. When I say "swat" I mean not a hard swat. I think it should only be used once in a while to, and only for something extreme. I can count on one hand how many times my two have had a swat on the bottom. I DO NOT believe in hitting a child anywhere else but on the bottom.
 
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Squishy22

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#73
I think that a swat on the bottom when a child is little is ok. It's not about inflicting pain on a child, but getting their attention. When I say "swat" I mean not a hard swat. I think it should only be used once in a while to, and only for something extreme. I can count on one hand how many times my two have had a swat on the bottom. I DO NOT believe in hitting a child anywhere else but on the bottom.
Whats the difference from being hit in the butt than being hit anywhere else? Not trying to attack you, I am just curious. :)
 

Jammies

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#74
I also agree with spanking in some instances. I know I am older but when I was in school it would never have crossed one of our minds to cuss a teacher, bring a gun, attack our parents, etc. Today is supposed to be so much more advanced and corporal punishment cruel...well, if I had to choose the kids I hung out with or these smart mouthed, self-serving, never-allowed-to-fail kids of today it would be no contest. My daughter is a wonderful mother, has a great career and is a very responsible member of society, and yes, she got her butt swatted a couple of times. Marks, bruises, welts, God forbid....but swatted none the less. People need to follow their instincts and trust themselves. Not all children need this type of discipline but I feel it does have its place. There is a huge difference between discipline and abuse.
 

Doberluv

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#76
Positive reinforcement works for dogs, but that just teaches them good things. If you ignore that your dog is chewing on your shoe and don't address the behavior, they will keep doing it.

Who said that's what you do? Or that's all you do? How much do you know about training....learning behavior? That statement indicates that you believe that that is all there is to it. All my dogs are taught with positive reinforcement and no pysical punishment. They learned not to chew on shoes, not to jump up, not to bite, not to beg at the table, not to do any of the obnoxious behaviors that so many people complain about. My dogs are well mannered and my Doberman is quite advanced in his training. I not only never laid a hand on them, but I never use any form of intimidation or fear tactics...not necessary. And there is proof of that.

Do you think they use physical punishment to train all the exotic zoo animals to do the things they have to do? How about whales and dolphins? Do you think they teach them what not to do by physical punishment? Before you make claims such as, "positive reinforcement only teaches them good things," I think you might want to research the science of behavior and training a little more.

Human children and dogs think differently, of course. Humans understand human language. But that is no justification for striking a child. I don't see the logic or the connection there. There are some variations, of course on techniques and ways to go about things, but operant and classical conditioning is how ALL organisms with a brain work. Punishment is part of operant conditioning. However, there is no evidence that spankings or other corporal type...physical punishment are needed to teach a child or a dog what to do.... or what not to do. BUT there is evidence of the detrimental and harmful consequences of harsh, excessive, forceful, painful punishment in both humans and other animals. I'm not educated in early childhood education but did read a few books when my kids were young. But from what I understand, the people who do study, research and work with children professionally do not believe in spanking or other physical punishment or verbally abusive or rough treatment. People who rehabilitate messed up children use very gentle methods. So, where is the validation for striking children?

Yup Zoom....there are other tools in the tool box, like you said. You gave me a real visual of a very precise way to trim grass. LOL.
 

zoe08

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#77
All my dogs are taught with positive reinforcement and no pysical punishment.
You said no "physical punishment." you didn't say no punishment at all. I don't believe that physical is the only kind of punishment. But Im saying if all you do is reward for good, and not address the bad, you don't get anywhere.
 

daaqa

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#78
well, i will agree to disagree on the topic. i don't see the point arguing my standpoint in great detail. just don't call me abusive or violent if i parent slightly different.

i'm hoping for kids that won't need it [if they have personalities at all like their parents, they probably won't need it] and hoping a balanced approach and consistency will suffice. but i won't rule it out, either.
 
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Squishy22

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#79
I also agree with spanking in some instances. I know I am older but when I was in school it would never have crossed one of our minds to cuss a teacher, bring a gun, attack our parents, etc. Today is supposed to be so much more advanced and corporal punishment cruel...well, if I had to choose the kids I hung out with or these smart mouthed, self-serving, never-allowed-to-fail kids of today it would be no contest. My daughter is a wonderful mother, has a great career and is a very responsible member of society, and yes, she got her butt swatted a couple of times. Marks, bruises, welts, God forbid....but swatted none the less. People need to follow their instincts and trust themselves. Not all children need this type of discipline but I feel it does have its place. There is a huge difference between discipline and abuse.
How are you so sure that parents eliminating spanking is the reason for the guns in school, cussing teachers, and kids who attack parents?

I was spanked as a kid. By the time I hit 13 years old I started to lash out when I got spankings. I would refuse them and protect myself by resisting. Then I started resenting my parents for hitting me. I think it hurts a child psychologically when they are striked in any way.
 

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