IF a middle school councilor

:hail::hail::hail::hail::hail:

You watched it as it happened? I would have stepped in and put a stop to it right then if I could see she was uncomfortable and I felt it was out of line.

From the basic description I don't feel it was really out of line or creepy. I also don't know what issues the child has either so that may change my opinion of it.

I would not like that at ALL. I'm very tactile, but only on my say so. If I ever have to touch anyone I don't really know, even people I work with, I'll say 'I'm going to touch you know'. If I'm comfortable with someone I'll grab their boobs happily, lol.

No way would I want a staff member anywhere near me UNINVITED. Yes I'd have said something too.

This!!

I am not suggesting this man was even being creepy, but you don't invade personal space unless you KNOW its ok or youre invited. If someone touched me while telling me off, I'd feel very unhappy.

And it's not fair to expect a 12 or 13 year old to feel comfortable telling off an authority figure, in my opinion. In my school, if you talk back to the administration, you suffer a lot of consequences.

The counselors and administrators here always, always, always are on the other side of the desk from the students. You can lean across the desk and instill the fear of God in a child without touching them.

It is inappropriate because it is too confrontational. There are better ways to question a child. There may not be anything wrong with the touch itself, it is context and the vibe of the situation that matter most.

When I was in high school, 11th grade year, 17 years old, I had an uncomfortable experience with a male teacher. It was a creative writing class and he went to each student's desk to talk to them about their writing. When he came to my desk, he took my hand in both of his and held it while looking into my eyes. I can't remember what he said about my writing, but I do remember jerking my hand out of his and scooting my chair back a foot or two. I am very particular about who touches me, when they touch me and how they touch me, and this was all kinds of unacceptable to me. I saw the faces of the class, they thought it was a little weird too. The touch itself wasn't a "bad touch". It was just my hand in both of his. Lots of people touch each others' hands for all kinds of reasons. But in context, it was out of line and unprofessional. Even as a 17 year old I did not have the self confidence to tell this teacher to please not touch me. Hopefully my actions conveyed that clearly, lol. He didn't behave this way with any other student in class (that I saw).

Unhappily I was placed in this man's 12th grade English class the following year because all the other classes were full. He never did touch me again, but I did catch him staring at me more than once. *Shudders*

Smkie, I first wanted to say how sorry I am that you and Hyia are going through this.

*******
I do think this was inappropriate in this context. I don't think all touch is bad, even in the school setting (e.g. my SIL is a pre-K teacher and she doesn't initiate hugs, but I don't think she tells little ones who hug her to never do it again. I have other family members who work with kids with various special needs and they know how to restrain students. Totally different contexts). I also understand that male teachers (of which my brother is one) and administrators often have some pretty awful ideas/motivations projected on them, including by other teachers and administrators, which is truly unfair and unfortunate -- but I don't think that's what people are responding to here, either.

Maybe we should start a different thread, because I don't want to further muddy up Smkie's thread or make it more acrimonious, but I genuinely don't understand what people mean by saying we don't touch each other enough, so maybe someone can clarify. I have no touch sensitivities, but I do think that it's prudent for everyone to err on the side of caution, if only because we know that it can make others uncomfortable. I don't want people I don't know well on a personal level doing anything much more than shaking my hand in the workplace, generally speaking. And I would rather any child of mine understand that there are pretty clear boundaries with adults, not that they have to suck it up if it makes them uncomfortable because that's how the world works. At the same time, I do think we have to be careful teaching kids and not scare them too much when talking about these topics.

I don't think I'd have spoken up at that age.

I was at my moms tonight and asked her about his. She taught middle school for 20 years and now teaches elementary. She thought it was inappropriate....

I don't touch patients because touching patients is a breach of professional ethics. No psychiatrist or mental health professional should touch patients this way. It is, of course, different if the patient requires restraints, but that is a different kind of touching.

I am actually a very "touchy" person. I hug my family, friends and colleagues, but not my patients. Mental health professionals are supposed to form a therapeutic alliance. We are not the patient's family or friend. I am not making this up, these are the rules that we are trained to follow. If this person purports to be a "counselor" it is my assumption that he is bound by the same set of rules.

Incidentally, my patients hug ME with surprising frequency. I certainly don't recoil in horror and tell them to stop it.
But that comes from them, not me.
Your opinion is that it would be better if therapists touched people, but the fact is they are not supposed to. it is deemed unprofessional behavior.

it's not just my opinion, groups, hospitals, offices etc all over the country are incorporating classes, seminars etc to teach doctors to actually be human again and touch their patients. I'd think a doctor that studies the mind would know better about just how powerful human touch is and actually be able to use it.

It is my opinion though, that you think it is totally unprofessional and that all "doctoring" "counseling" "teaching" whatever'ing must be done totally hands off is because people are afraid of the boogie man and construe any form of touching as "bad" touching. Or it potentially could be bad touching therefore none is allowed. I find that sad.

I didn't know psychiatrists were held to a different code of ethics than the rest of us. Could you scan those codes of conduct and then post them? Or is just where you work that has those codes? is it another work place so afraid of the boogie man they don't allow any touching? or do you really believe that touching is a detriment to your profession? or most professions In general?

This is not my opinion. Other kinds of physicians use a different standard, but mental health professionals do not touch patients. Everywhere, not just where I work.

How very condescending you are! Just because I don't want my therapist touching me doesn't mean I am afraid of the boogey man or that I am abnormal and unstable.

I don't want anyone I don't know hugging or touching me. I have a right to not have touch forced on me because other think it should be. There are many people, just under 50% of the worlds population, that are touch aversive. It is part of brain structure.

I never thought the touch the OP spoke about here was creepy or sexual. Just bullying and dominating, which is wrong.

I wouldn't consider myself to find touch aversive, but it would probably make me uncomfortable to have someone I don't really know trying to comfort or connect with me via touch. While I wouldn't freak out I can't imagine myself being thrilled about it, and I would probably not go back to the person for fear of being made uncomfortable again. For some people touch might be ok, but I think a large number would not be particularly happy about someone they don't know very well touching them unnecessarily. If a doctor did that it would probably make me want to avoid them. My friends and I are very touchy-feely people but it is a totally different scenario when it comes to people you aren't very familiar with.

Also, I am going to agree with the others and say a 12 year old shouldn't be expected to stand up for themselves against an adult figure of authority. My parents tried very hard to teach me that I can say when I feel uncomfortable, but I know I never would have stood up to a teacher because of how quiet and shy I was. I don't doubt that some kids would be capable of doing this, but I tend to think more would avoid the possible confrontation and just try to steer clear of that person the next time (not always possible in school settings).

Thank you SillySally that gives me great peace of mind because that is exactly what I had in my head, this is inappropriate and that is what I reported.

Imho he epically failed Hyia. I hope he never does this to another child when that child needs guidance AND compassion (verbally) the most.

There's a false dichotomy that keeps being brought up in this thread: That is, that one either wants a sterile, no-touching world OR wants a world full of hugs and rainbows. And it's really annoying me. It is perfectly possible for someone to simply be discriminating about personal boundaries and without being pathologically aversive to touch or paranoid. The sky isn't falling. The slope isn't slippery. Some people just don't welcome anyone and everyone inside their bubble simply by virtue of being human.

My husband's a teacher, so I asked him for his opinion (since I'm not touchy feely with strangers). He also felt it was not appropriate. Not, as others have stated, implying the guy was being skeevy, but that the act could be very uncomfortable for a student.

Frankly, for me, it's the hand on the inside of the knee that is even more creepy. If my boss touched the inside of my knee, I'd be majorly creeped out. And my boss is female.

Honestly I would be furious. Everything about the touch and the posturing sounds very inappropriate to me and I would not be silent about it.

No not every touch is "bad". But I think in this case the touch was bad. A grown man used his power and authority to express his dominance over a child. He did it with his voice, his body language, and by physically placing his hands on a child.

I am very sorry Hyia had to experience this.

I had a female boss once who did that to me. And yah, it was creepy, but she'd made some remarks and had actually invited me to stay with her overnight.

I'm trying to picture this "hand on the inside of the knee" that creeps people out so much. I've talked with Smkie directly and in this case I do think this was WAY out of line for someone that was supposed to be an ADVOCATE for Hyia. this is not the case of your everyday 12 year old.

but people keep saying that inside the knee would be weird and creepy. I'm trying to picture ways that people would have touched the inside of my KNEE... NOT thigh but my knee and I can't think of anything that makes it this really wierd, odd, sexual type touch.

on a totally unrelated note... I have had people grab my boobs or comment on them. TOTALLY random strangers. not as a child of course but as an adult I can think of a few instances (both male and female) where people have just come up and grabbed on lol. weird? yes. but for me... whatever. I don't have any touch issues. I'm huggy and touchy naturally.