IF a middle school councilor

[~Jessie~]

It's common knowledge if you've read any of her other threads.

No, it's really not.

There was one thread I can think back to that mentioned that.

I read the OP's thread as a general question. And no, for that answer, I don't think it's inappropriate to touch a child's knee while speaking to them. I think that the world has gotten way too sterile.

My 3rd grade teacher was the most sterile, hands off woman ever. She didn't even seem like she liked children. Generally, teachers/principals/counselors who are touchy feely actually LIKE kids at least.

Over the years, I've had teachers give me hugs, touch my arms, etc, etc. I've never thought anything of it. I also think that people automatically assume "man teacher/counselor touches child's knee = molestation."

Maybe the counselor knew that Hyia needed extra reassurance and put his hand on her knee for that reason?

If you feel uncomfortable (or Hyia does), by all means let the school know. Only you know what's best for your situation... but I personally don't find it to be a big deal, or even a little one.

 

[JessLough]

Apparently, when we say counselor, we are meaning two very different people.

 

[Greenmagick]

If you feel uncomfortable (or Hyia does), but all means let the school know. Only you know what's best for your situation... but I personally don't find it to be a big deal, or even a little one.

This, exactly. The touch in and of itself I see as perfectly fine. HOWEVER, that does not mean there are not circumstances that change that or that it is wrong to speak up if its uncomfortable.

 

[Baxter'smybaby]

even as a general question, not related to anyone in particular--this was inappropriate. Doesn't mean this counselor is a child molester...but it does mean he is putting himself into a situation to be accused of one.

Add to that he IS dealing with a child with some real challenges--as a counselor he should KNOW better than to use such body language as this--touch, and very close eye contact/ face to face. If you know anything about teens--you'd know this could easily be a confrontational approach, and he could easily have caused the child to react physically. Then what do we have? Most likely child being labeled as aggressive...and all THAT brings in a school environment.

 

[sillysally]

even as a general question, not related to anyone in particular--this was inappropriate. Doesn't mean this counselor is a child molester...but it does mean he is putting himself into a situation to be accused of one.

Add to that he IS dealing with a child with some real challenges--as a counselor he should KNOW better than to use such body language as this--touch, and very close eye contact/ face to face. If you know anything about teens--you'd know this could easily be a confrontational approach, and he could easily have caused the child to react physically. Then what do we have? Most likely child being labeled as aggressive...and all THAT brings in a school environment.

Yep, this.

 

[smkie]

even as a general question, not related to anyone in particular--this was inappropriate. Doesn't mean this counselor is a child molester...but it does mean he is putting himself into a situation to be accused of one.

Add to that he IS dealing with a child with some real challenges--as a counselor he should KNOW better than to use such body language as this--touch, and very close eye contact/ face to face. If you know anything about teens--you'd know this could easily be a confrontational approach, and he could easily have caused the child to react physically. Then what do we have? Most likely child being labeled as aggressive...and all THAT brings in a school environment.

That aggression came home to herself. !!!!!!!!!!!!

I have spent most of my adult life caring for other people. In a drug rehab, in a mental health facility, in a nursing home, and in daycare. I would never touch someone as I saw him do. I can be perfectly compassionate, or sincere, or whatever with my words. I don't need to get in your face, to deem if your words are true or not. I don't need to lean in until your pressed up against the chair, and I sure as heck don't need to bore my eyes down your pupils. I tried to keep as much of my feelings about the man out of the original post so my feelings would not sway opinion one way or the other. This being the man she is suppose to go to when she is having a hard time keeping together.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

THAT--in spades! Working with children--you have to know how to not put yourself or the child in a situation that can be misread by either party.

Totally and completely agree. I am the child of a teacher and going for my masters in education, I know exactly what you mean about "You're in this profession, you should know better about the laws (and or ethics)". However, I do believe it is important we, as members of society, begin to put our voices out there that touching, in general is not wrong. There are good and there are bad touches. It is a sad world coming when, as gm said, a child is distraught and due to touching rules the supervising adult must sit across the table and offer no physical condolences for fear of miss-interruption. This isn't exactly an on topic issue, because what we're discussing here very well could have been a bad touch and very obviously has a back story and very rightfully was reported, but it is an important issue that is obviously weighing on the replying posters minds on both sides of the issue.

I hope to god my children, if I have any, will not have the same touch sensitivity issues I have. I hope they will be able to understand it's okay to be touched and not panic. Hell, I even wish the same for my touch sensitive dog.

 

[Baxter'smybaby]

That aggression came home to herself. !!!!!!!!!!!!

And counselors need to know they have THAT impact as well. I am always thinking about the 'what if's" of any situation when dealing with children, and families. So many dynamics--which is why the professionals really need to understand it from different angles.

 

[-bogart-]

HUGSOw smkie , for you and Hyia.

 

[smkie]

I will tell her you sent your love Bogart. She needs understanding in buckets right now.
She is a good girl, a loving girl, sweet as can be most of the time. She just wants to be happy and have friends. And all of that is so hard for her it is not fair, not fair at all. I haven't cried so much in my life as I have these last 2 days. I am surprised the well hasn't gone dry, my eyes sure wish it would. I was so tired and so stressed, I hand't slept and they said go take a breather, and I needed one, but I couldn't sign this form I was suppose to sign without the tears starting to drip. Everything felt wrong, I told myself it was only an hour and a half. IF I had known he was going to put her on the bus I woudl have got her out of there in a blink of an eye. If I had known he was going to do this when she finally did disclose the truth about where the paint came from and who was involved, I woudln't have taken her in.

 

[Baxter'smybaby]

Totally and completely agree. I am the child of a teacher and going for my masters in education, I know exactly what you mean about "You're in this profession, you should know better about the laws (and or ethics)". However, I do believe it is important we, as members of society, begin to put our voices out there that touching, in general is not wrong. There are good and there are bad touches. It is a sad world coming when, as gm said, a child is distraught and due to touching rules the supervising adult must sit across the table and offer no physical condolences for fear of miss-interruption. This isn't exactly an on topic issue, because what we're discussing here very well could have been a bad touch and very obviously has a back story and very rightfully was reported, but it is an important issue that is obviously weighing on the replying posters minds on both sides of the issue.

I hope to god my children, if I have any, will not have the same touch sensitivity issues I have. I hope they will be able to understand it's okay to be touched and not panic. Hell, I even wish the same for my touch sensitive dog.

I do not disagree with the bolded part--but, in this instance, as it was described...I would read it as inappropriate. And if this was my staff--I'd be telling them so. In addition--touch is very personal--some people have great aversion to touch, where as others crave it. In either of those situations...a child who craves the touch may now begin to read it as more than it was....and for those that have an aversion, it becomes offensive and can cause an overreaction. But, each person will have to decide what they feel is right--and reading other people's body language/comfort levels is really a good skill to have in this type of work.

 

[JessLough]

Oh it doesn't change my stance, I was just amused that we were talking completely different things the whole time

Honestly, if this guy deserves to be punished for placing his hand on somebody's knee, I should probably be in jail. I've *gasp* carried children while working at/running a booth for lost children, I've probably touched many of their knees, and I've even lifted their shirt to look for a sticker with a phone number on it.

 

[Baxter'smybaby]

yeah Jess--it all depends on how it was done, what the circumstances were, etc.

 

[SevenSins]

That aggression came home to herself. !!!!!!!!!!!!

I have spent most of my adult life caring for other people. In a drug rehab, in a mental health facility, in a nursing home, and in daycare. I would never touch someone as I saw him do. I can be perfectly compassionate, or sincere, or whatever with my words. I don't need to get in your face, to deem if your words are true or not. I don't need to lean in until your pressed up against the chair, and I sure as heck don't need to bore my eyes down your pupils. I tried to keep as much of my feelings about the man out of the original post so my feelings would not sway opinion one way or the other. This being the man she is suppose to go to when she is having a hard time keeping together.

For starters, you never said you SAW this person do this. Secondly, you didn't say that he "leaned in until the child was PRESSED up against the chair" and that he "BORED his eyes down her pupils." You said, "He leans in and has direct eye contact." Something along the lines of, "oh, by the way, my kid also has a deleted by smkie, disclosing personal information.. would have been nice as well. If you want an opinion on a particular situation, why not state all the facts related to THAT situation to begin with so that some of us aren't wasting our time replying to a generalized hypothetical when our opinion may or may not differ based on the scenario?

 

[sillysally]

Oh it doesn't change my stance, I was just amused that we were talking completely different things the whole time

Honestly, if this guy deserves to be punished for placing his hand on somebody's knee, I should probably be in jail. I've *gasp* carried children while working at/running a booth for lost children, I've probably touched many of their knees, and I've even lifted their shirt to look for a sticker with a phone number on it.

You are not in a position of authority over those kids, it is a completely different context and situation. When I worked at the stable I lifted kids into ponies, helped them onto horses, helped them get their feet im the right position in the stirrups, etc. BUT, I was not an authority figure in the same way that a school official is, I needed to have contact with them to do my job (the touch was functional, not conversational), and their parents or guardians where right there. Totally different situation. I don't think that he needs to be punished necessarily, but he does need a talking to about what is and is not ok when it comes to kids and touching.

 

[smkie]

I think it also depends on the age. I have a lot of dealings wiht 2 yr olds. Sometimes i have to pick one up and remove them from biting or hitting or not sharing or whatever to ensure the safetly of both and I have to be quick about it and sometimes I have to change a shirt due to spills. . That is different from someone who can talk. . Use your words dude. That is what I thought whwen I saw him do it. Stop. We don't know you that well and your touch is not invited and please get out of my face I personally don't like it and I can sure tell she doesn't. Touch should come from someone you invite it from, family, close friend, not a person in authority over you. She stated it has happened many times when I was not standing right there. She also stated her does this to her friend.

I also never said anything about punishing him. I wanted to know if you all thought it was right or wrong to have a man of authority touch your 12 yr old girl on the inside of the knee while calling her a liar. What action the school chooses to take about this is on them.
Her mental status does not have anything to do with whether it is right or not, nor it is my right or yours to disclose her personal medical information publicly which is why that was not done. Crisis is the only necessary fact that needs to be written and that could fit any number of issues, the feelings and emotions are all the same.Scared, confused, hurt, sad, angry all wrapped up in one is not the time to be treated like that.

 

[yoko]

I don't know I guess living in the country and going to church with just old people it doesn't bug me that much. Was he being a creep? If not I know around here adults and old people touch you to get your attention. It might be to grab your arm or leg if you are sitting down.

I mean if there was other creepy stuff going on yeah it would be a red flag. If not I guess I'm just not as 'sexual predator alert' as most people.

 

[ACooper]

The issue is the FACT this person (male or female) received EDUCATION and a DEGREE to work with/deal with children. They are supposed to understand HOW to deal with them, and appropriate/inappropriate behaviors............from the child and more importantly from THEMSELVES!

They get PAID to understand. They are in AUTHORITY over these children. It's not about sterile society, it's not about thinking all men are creepy if they touch a person.......it's about BOUNDARIES. Boundaries a person in charge is PAID to understand and follow.

Another fact: If this person (again, male or female) did nothing inappropriate, followed all job guidelines, and everything is cool on that front........reporting the 'incident' to their supperior won't hurt a thing will it? The superior can tell them to "keep up the good work" and "Way to follow protocol"

Raising kids and dealing with the schools as long as I have, plus working and volunteering at the school.......I can assure you, that behavior is NOT protocol and is indeed inappropriate.

 

[AdrianneIsabel]

Boundaries a person in charge is PAID to understand and follow.

If only things were really that black and white, we'd never have these debates.

 

[ACooper]

If only things were really that black and white, we'd never have these debates.

:lol-sign:

Or a whole host of other issues in life! LOL