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when then just admit it. Quit saying this isn't about anything being sexual, because from the first sentence in the first post it was.

and everyone gets creeped out because of the sex factor because it was a man, why deny it?

why when someone makes a post about this isn't "ewww sexual touch" do people feel the need to jump in with 10 more posts in the affirmative, when it most certainlyl IS about being sexual.
 

Romy

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when then just admit it. Quit saying this isn't about anything being sexual, because from the first sentence in the first post it was.

and everyone gets creeped out because of the sex factor because it was a man, why deny it?

why when someone makes a post about this isn't "ewww sexual touch" do people feel the need to jump in with 10 more posts in the affirmative, when it most certainlyl IS about being sexual.
Because the touch itself wasn't overtly sexual.

I don't want to get into a lot of personal history here, for myself or other members, but a rather disproportionate number of women on here have been victims of sex crimes at various ages. That colors our perceptions of things, as far as recognizing early early grooming behaviors whether we realize that's what we're doing or it's just on a gut level "this doesn't feel right and I can't put my finger on why". But it's there. I'm not sure I would have recognized it without those experiences. I'd probably be like Jesslough and be like, "MEH! it's just a knee!" Which is it. Yet isn't.

Sorry if I'm not explaining things clearly. My son didn't sleep a whole lot last night.
 

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when then just admit it. Quit saying this isn't about anything being sexual, because from the first sentence in the first post it was.

and everyone gets creeped out because of the sex factor because it was a man, why deny it?

why when someone makes a post about this isn't "ewww sexual touch" do people feel the need to jump in with 10 more posts in the affirmative, when it most certainlyl IS about being sexual.
Not everyone thinks it was inappropriate due to 'sexuality' Most of us think it was inappropriate because it WAS MEANT to be intimidating, bullying, dominating no matter WHAT the sex of the counselor.

That is what I personally believe even though YES, I have been a victim of molestation and rape.
 

smkie

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first post

Man placed his hand on your 12 yr girl's knee on the inside and front while he leaned in to speak to her (telling her she is lying) would you find this a red flag? What would you think if you found out he has done this many times? He leans in and has direct eye contact, about a foot from your face at the same time. My jaw dropped, I know I did not like it at all and have reported it. What I want to know is if anyone else thinks that is way inappropriate?
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I'm not asking for anyone's personal details or why you think a certain way,

my point is sexual bias is oozing from this thread, even when stated bluntly by those saying it's not their reasoning.

a touch on the knee isn't really a big deal when it's used in a way to say "hey, this is serious business, what's going on" same as a touch on the elbow, shoulder, arm etc.

You can be of the opinion that nobody should be touching anybody ever, I happen to think it's perfectly fine in a lot of circumstances.

If i'm out with people I don't know very well, and someone puts their hand on my shoulder and points off to something funny and starts laughing, i'm probably laughing too. If we're sitting chatting and something more serious happens and they put both hands on my shoulders and pull me in a bit closer and say "we have to get out of here there's a fire in the bathroom, i'm ok with it. If i'm in a meeting with a staffer i've had meetings with before and we're talking about something important and he or she puts their hand on my knee to say, are you bullshitting me, or is this really it, I don't have a problem with it.

I think those sorts of touches are important and a big part of human communication and people are so afraid of the boogie man it's all getting tossed away. People can't touch anybody anymore for anything or the boogie man comes out. Teachers can't touch kids, couselors won't touch patients, doctors are now being asked again to be human with patients in some places, in others, they're still scared of the boogie man and dont' want any of it.

so far all we're ending up with is a large population that doesn't know how to deal with normal human contact. Interpersonal relationships certainly aren't any better. Professional contact whether between adults or kids certainly isn't on a upward trend and I'd have to say people's behavior in general isn't really all that stellar.
 

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If i'm out with people I don't know very well, and someone puts their hand on my shoulder and points off to something funny and starts laughing, i'm probably laughing too. If we're sitting chatting and something more serious happens and they put both hands on my shoulders and pull me in a bit closer and say "we have to get out of here there's a fire in the bathroom, i'm ok with it. If i'm in a meeting with a staffer i've had meetings with before and we're talking about something important and he or she puts their hand on my knee to say, are you bullshitting me, or is this really it, I don't have a problem with it.
So you are also ok with someone IN AUTHORITY over you, getting a few inches from your face, staring you down, calling you a liar, and then touching you? That isn't a thing like ANY of the scenarios you've painted above IMO.

*shrugs* I don't think you are capable of understanding the situation. Perhaps you have never had anyone in authority abuse their power over you (and if that's so, AWESOME for you, I wish everyone had that) so maybe you just can't comprehend the feeling? NOT meant with any malicious or sarcastic tone just so you understand where that statement is coming from.
 
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Counselors, authority figures, mental health workers -- "hands off" is not a new protocol or standard of practice.

A touch like that may or may not have sexual overtones and only the people right there in the room, who are involved, really know about that aspect of it, but the bottom line remains that the onus is on the trained, experience professional adult to stay within boundaries. Never, never should that responsibility be placed on the child.

EDIT: I want to add that, having worked on the defense of several who were completely falsely accused of criminal sexual conduct, against children and adults, that's an equal reason to maintain those boundaries. This guy showed extremely poor judgment on so many different levels.
 
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So you are also ok with someone IN AUTHORITY over you, getting a few inches from your face, staring you down, calling you a liar, and then touching you? That isn't a thing like ANY of the scenarios you've painted above IMO.

*shrugs* I don't think you are capable of understanding the situation. Perhaps you have never had anyone in authority abuse their power over you (and if that's so, AWESOME for you, I wish everyone had that) so maybe you just can't comprehend the feeling? NOT meant with any malicious or sarcastic tone just so you understand where that statement is coming from.
it's not like I like it, sometimes I think it might be a bit much. I don't think people always react they way they should and sometimes it's just a part of normal life.

To me, Unless this touch was thought to be sexual in nature, there isn't any issue other than you didn't like it and imo, tough ****. There's lots of things people have to learn to deal with that they don't like and make them feel uncomfortable.

Counselors, authority figures, mental health workers -- "hands off" is not a new protocol or standard of practice
It hasn't exactly been around for centuries, I'd say it started gaining steam maybe 20 years ago more so in the last 15
 
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I'm thinking we are all viewing this way differently, a video would probably help as I think many of us have very different ideas on what the rest of his body language was.

Because I dont know the details, I can not say it was innapropriate (even if professionally it was, which honestly bugs me that it would be). It may have been, if he was really leaning in, hard stare, rough voice. Its all about context, which we dont have in the first post.
 

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leaning in, hard eyes, low quiet voice, not rough, not gentle...regular..accused of lie same time as touch, asked to leave room. She was back against the back of chair, feet and hands moving nervously, and asking to go home.

Bullying is a big issue..imho just as important as any other inappropriate behavior.. It did not allow her to express her concerns with being taking seriously when it was paramount that she learn to be able to do just that. Express herself, and know that this is the "chain of command" that she is to follow in times of crisis. THis is the one person she is suppose to be able to go to for help.
 

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To me, Unless this touch was thought to be sexual in nature, there isn't any issue other than you didn't like it and imo, tough ****. There's lots of things people have to learn to deal with that they don't like and make them feel uncomfortable.
I can't accept or agree with that. There ARE lots of things in life that make us uncomfortable or that we dislike, we DO have to deal with them, but not something like this.

yes tough **** if you don't like it when you must own up to what you've done and serve a detention.

yes tough **** if you don't like it when your parents make you clean your room.

yes tough **** if you don't like it when you have to eat fruits and veggies when you want chocolate and candy.

NOT tough **** if those in authority over you ABUSE power. Those people who are entrusted and/or PAID to provide care to those weaker than themselves then abuse the power.....nobody should have to accept it or be told 'tough ****....deal with it'
 
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but you see a hand on the knee as abuse, I don't. I'm sure it can be a part of it, but by itself? not a chance.

having someone that has reason to suspect they are being lied to about something pretty serious, has a duty and a right to convey that seriousness to the person they are talking to.
 

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*sigh* Not just a hand on the knee.........but then we've covered that repeatedly haven't we?
 
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*sigh* Not just a hand on the knee.........but then we've covered that repeatedly haven't we?
I dont know...I keep seeing people say (or at least it reads to me) that the touch is the worst or the bad part. Because it was on the "inside" of the knee. Thats what I dont get...its a knee. Sure, a touch anywhere can be wrong in context, but in and of itself, no a touch on the knee in not inappropriate.
 
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lots of things have been said repeatedly and contradicted repreatedly.

a hand on the knee and leaning in to note the seriousness of an issue isn't abusive by itself to me either. Neither is making a kid feeling uncomfortable. apparently there's some back story i don't know about in this particular instance, but i don't really need to go there.
 

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You are right GM, a simple touch on the knee isn't a horrid thing that needs the world to stop. But it has been repeated and covered about the events leading up, and the situation under which said touch was delivered.

One more time for the road and then I'm out...... She was in his office to discuss an incident she was under suspicion for. He moved into her personal space......nearly nose to nose. He accused her of being a liar. THEN he touched her on the leg, and by this point, it doesn't matter WHERE he chose to touch her (IMO) he was using that touch as INTIMIDATION, DOMINATION, and BULLYING techniques. ALL of which have been repeated.............so no, it IS NOT just about a simple touch on the knee, it's about the touch on the knee in combination, and in the whole scene. It's about a COUNSELOR who should know behavior better than that, who is paid to help care for our kids, a COUNSELOR who should KNOW BETTER AND DO BETTER than 'normal' teachers at the school when it comes to things of this nature.
 

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Has anyone's boss here ever placed a hand on their knee whilst discussing a serious matter?
 

smkie

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No I never have nor would I now no matter who they are, certainly not with a child or preteen. If someone was crying, or anxious, I may sit near them if they seemed relieved by my presence but I would not initiate physical contact.. I can compassionately communicate with my words. I do not hug unless someone else initiates it, unless it is my own children or my Mother. I do not have a spouse or that would be included too.

No boss, or teacher, or councilor or principal, or doctor or anyone has done so to me either either to comfort or to reprimand.
 

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Has anyone's boss here ever placed a hand on their knee whilst discussing a serious matter?
Actually yes my supervisor has and it was on the knee.

I have pretty bad adhd. When I'm at work I can usually focus in and do my job. Most meetings at this job were before store hours or after store hours. Combine my adhd with being tired and it just ended up be being zoned out for an hour or so.

Whenever my supervisor needed me to answer something or hear something she'd grab my knee and get eye contact before going on. Even during a disciplinary meeting that is how it went. I'm pretty anal about my personal bubble and that honestly did not bug me. And that's coming from someone who rarely even hugs close family.

I just tried it with fine friends here and they tried it as well. Almost every time the persons knee who was being touched got touched on the inside. The only time it wasn't was when we basically made a salute hand and laid it on top of the knee.

We weren't grabbinghow the thumb fell it always ended up on the inside.
 

Baxter'smybaby

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I'm not asking for anyone's personal details or why you think a certain way,

my point is sexual bias is oozing from this thread, even when stated bluntly by those saying it's not their reasoning.

a touch on the knee isn't really a big deal when it's used in a way to say "hey, this is serious business, what's going on" same as a touch on the elbow, shoulder, arm etc.

You can be of the opinion that nobody should be touching anybody ever, I happen to think it's perfectly fine in a lot of circumstances.

If i'm out with people I don't know very well, and someone puts their hand on my shoulder and points off to something funny and starts laughing, i'm probably laughing too. If we're sitting chatting and something more serious happens and they put both hands on my shoulders and pull me in a bit closer and say "we have to get out of here there's a fire in the bathroom, i'm ok with it. If i'm in a meeting with a staffer i've had meetings with before and we're talking about something important and he or she puts their hand on my knee to say, are you bullshitting me, or is this really it, I don't have a problem with it.

I think those sorts of touches are important and a big part of human communication and people are so afraid of the boogie man it's all getting tossed away. People can't touch anybody anymore for anything or the boogie man comes out. Teachers can't touch kids, couselors won't touch patients, doctors are now being asked again to be human with patients in some places, in others, they're still scared of the boogie man and dont' want any of it.

so far all we're ending up with is a large population that doesn't know how to deal with normal human contact. Interpersonal relationships certainly aren't any better. Professional contact whether between adults or kids certainly isn't on a upward trend and I'd have to say people's behavior in general isn't really all that stellar.
All of your examples are adult/adult. Also, you are overgeneralizing peoples perspectives--I am not saying all touch is bad, or that we shouldn't touch people. But the issue here....this is an adult and a child...not two adults (as in the boss to employee scenario's). This is a child who may or may not speak up, or know that she can, or know how to, or even know that she should. This is a child who is under an adult's guidance...

I am not saying this was a sexual issue. I AM saying it was inappropriate--because of the circumstances of the situation--child/adult. Because we don't have 'video" of this situation--we can all read all sorts of things into it. But bottom line--the adult is the one who is responsible for recognizing professional conduct. If this was brought to me regarding one of my employees, I'd be following up on it--This incident, to me, sounds inappropriate.
 

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