Did anyone else see this? Just horrific!!!

I see what you're saying. There are bad trainers of all kinds.

But those of us who don't like Cesar aren't all +R trainers. I personally don't have issues with training collars, used properly. My dislike of him has nothing to do with the fact that he uses choke collars or correction. It's because some of his advocated training methods are flat-out dangerous.

For example, using a clicker on a genuinely dominant dog is very unlikely to provoke a bite. I suppose it could happen, but you can reasonably say it's unlikely. The same with using a prong or choke collar. It's also unlikely to provoke a bite. But alpha rolling a dominant dog? You can almost bet money on the fact you will get bitten. I know, I experienced it first-hand.

Somebody very recently posted on here that their mother followed Cesar's methods with their resource-aggressive dog (I believe it involved pushing the dog away from the object with a stick or broom?) and got badly bitten. It was such a sad story.

I don't blame Cesar entirely. It does take two to tango--one to demonstrate the methods, and one to use them. But I still think that it's a bad idea for him to advocate methods that are very likely to result in a bite when used with the wrong dog.

True. And I'm beginning to think working with animals at a higher level of connection and understanding is something that some folks are just born with. Many people can learn the basics and do okay, and some never will. Some things simply require a "feel".

I try to look at every behavior and interaction from an ongoing point of view with three different perspectives at the same time...OC, CC, and SL (social learning). Every living being interacting with a dog, also adds another variable.

And, while I do take issue with certain evangelical trainers and their nasty politics, there isn't a single person who can't teach me something from their own personal experience and perspective.

I'm no blind faith follower of anyone, but do support Cesar because he's the first person to describe what the dogs, horses, and messed up kids have been teaching me all along, for over forty years.

Science is easy to discuss and map out on paper, but real life isn't as neat and tidy.

I imagine that the people asked CM for help because doing what they did, even though it was working, is extremely taxing and frustrating to keep doing day in and day out. It's like the situation we have with Gunnar and Buzz. I get so tired of having to go thru these stupid rituals with Buzz every day. It'd be so much easier if he'd just accept that he's subordinant to Gunnar and get on with it. But, he doesn't, and for his own safety he has to be monitored constantly to keep him from trying to be aggressive to a dog that could kill him in an instant. Having to always monitor where each dog is, watch for signs of aggressive behavior, separate them before meal time so they don't fight while I'm preparing their food. It gets old. So maybe this is how that couple felt and were desparate for a solution.

Rotating dogs can be frustrating, time consuming AND a big pain in the butt but it is the reality for many pit owners and loving and UNDERSTANDING the breed makes this sacrifice entirely worth while.

All that Cesar really proved on the show is that a natural drive or predispostion in some terriers can not be yanked/kicked/exercised suppressed or talked away...no matter how much time, energy or love you put into it.

They were doing fine with rotating, now they're likely left with a false sense of security that could leave one or both of their dogs dead if they loosen their focus. They will also likely be faced with the task of breaking up a bitch fight with two very powerful dogs...

What Cesar did was provide Trinity with practice fighting, the owners WRONG information, and place the entire family at risk once life returns to normal for them.

I'm sending you the bill for my monitor, which now has coffee spewed all over it. :rofl1:

FYI, witches don't engage in satanic sacrifices.

I suggest a boycott. Just don't turn on the show. Change channels when DW comes on. If necessary, boycott NatGeo. Boycott petco until they stop selling his products.

Yes, it is frustrating and time consuming. And it's not just something pit owners do. I currently have three sets of dogs - a pair of corgis, a male malinois, a female malinois. It's a real pain sometimes, but it's what needs to be done.

So true CP, my pit reference was simply because of the subjects of the show being 2 female pits.
I used to rotate 2 dogs myself and right now am having to ensure that my 18 year old with dementia is kept seperate from all of my other dogs when I'm not home...she likes to hip check and grump at everyone lately.

Wow, I watched that and it as just... wow...

So he took a dog with known dog aggression problems and put it in a pack as big as that one. Then when the dog attacked another and the other fought back, they jumped in without break sticks and manually pulled them off each other. Then after the fight he not only blames the owners for the aggression shown, but sticks the two fighting dogs in the same kennel!? What was he trying to do? Prove that they wouldn't spontaneously attack each other? He said they were ignoring each other, but the one dog at least to me looked very distressed.

:rofl1:

No to get Off Topic, but have you seen those sun shades you put in the front window of your car??? On the label it actually says "DO NOT OPERATE WITH SHADE IN PLACE" ummm..... wow they felt the need to put that warning on something that covers your entire front window?? :yikes::rofl1:

My favorite was a bag of peanuts with a warning saying that this product may contain peanuts.

My son has a fatal nut allergy and has one of those labels in a frame in his condo. A big bag of peanuts in the shell with the 'may contain' warning...so funny!

The more posts I read here, the more you guys convince me that CM is not the way! Thank you. I mean I have already seen positive results of the things you all have suggested for me here.

In the past my dog, Athena, has gotten along with other dogs, but the older she gets, the more I realize she will probably just have to be a one dog house. Thats fine. I will just have to socialize her in other ways

I think its wrong and horrible for him to have asked for a "trade". EXCUSE ME! Thats MY dog! But the poor people probably trust him. Its Cesar Millan for chrimes sake. *sigh*

Okay, I guess I'm the only one who sees the parallel here.

What do you mean? Not trying to poke at ya, I just don't know what you're saying..

I too see a parallel. But it seems that THIS owner is smart enough to learn and go with the real fix vs a flashy 'magic' CM fix.

I too see lots of issues with dogs that become clients of mine from their owners trying to implement CM training style. I have seen shut down dogs.. but then again on his show I see shut down dogs so its no surprise.

I know. And a big kudos to everyone for keeping this conversation civil.

Most of the time, I spend a lot more time reading through dog boards than participating.

After four years (and many honest case histories) of tracking an owner's progress with their dog (s), you do notice trends which include denial, who's dogs become or remain "reactive", which owners practice avoidence and management, which owners resolve their dog's issues, who ends up with a stable, healthy, balanced dog who is a safe member of society and welcomed anywhere, which dogs get rehomed, and which dogs get put down.

IMO, the owner's motivation, emotion, and grasp of whatever philosopy they choose to apply (or deny), will always be the greatest influence on the dog's behavior, quality of life, or death.

Sorry I don't get what you are saying?

Are you saying that anyone using management and desensitization have reactive dogs because of that-and these dogs could be totally fixed using punitive methods?

IDK...I had a client once that I offered a trade to. But they were ambivalent about keeping the dog (who was showing aggression) and they were moving 1000 miles away the next week. They were the ones who first mentioned maybe rehoming the dog and could I take it, and at the time I had a dog looking for a home. I couldn't have another dog, but I told them I'd be willing to trade.

That was over the phone before going out there. Once I was there, it didn't take long to see that they would do fine with the dog they had and there was no trade.

I also had a client who I told, in no uncertain terms, that they needed to rehome their dog. Which they did - and I helped them do it.

*shrugs*

Not at all. I try to avoid using words like anyone, everyone, never, and always.

I'm just saying a lot more depends on the owner and their choice of methods (for whatever reason) than the method or the dog alone. The owner and their daily interactions along with their relationship with their dog seems to be the greatest influence on a dogs mental state and behavior, IMOAE.

I can't imagine a smaller toolkit and range of philosophies than I use right now, and I'm always adjusting it and adding more.

Just to point out (since you don't seem to know) you can be +R and be very harsh. One of the biggest positive trainer out there (and HUGELY successful one at that) is Susan Garrett. Her book Ruff Love is concidered very strict and harsh but all negative punishment and the odd time out.

IF you have a spoiled or bratty dog then you suck as a trainer no matter what methodology you use. Some of the most precise and reliable dogs I know are trained using positive methods.

Perhaps you have not come across all the fantastic dogs performing understress who were trained with +R?

Here are my personal clips..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_T-WUt6k-ac
reactive dog with a pug on wheels in the background, strollers and strangers in a packed environment.


Agility... (99.9% of all top agility dogs are trained +R-you can't afford to shut them down you need the speed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udSo94I70dM

Heck this one is my horse, but still clicker trained (and she will do this on a busy tv set too)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjCgiUWLTa8

And just to show you can train food motived dogs NOT to eat food. (the common thing I hear is that if you train with food your dog will become too into food and not listen with out it and other rubbish)

Here is my dog retrieving an uneaten hot dog... She did this 5 times in a row!!! And I had never trained her to retrieve food before.


and other fun thing trained with positive (not all that useful but tricky none the less)


I hope that shows that positive DOES NOT mean permissive!!!