Did anyone else see this? Just horrific!!!

[OutlineACDs]

So I'm trying to sort out 14 pages of thoughts into something that makes sense when I type it.

Everyone has remarked on the fact that Millan said "Oh, this could be a problem" when the dogs started posturing. I noticed that too, before he said it. Anyway, so what would you (general 'you') have done?

Me? I tend to freeze up just like he did. I have tried calling one of their names. If I'm lucky and get one of them to look at me, generally the other dog immediately jumps on the dog who just looked/moved away. I have used the water hose, it works, when you are in the vicinity of one. I have tried grabbing a leash and trying to somehow wrap it around one dog and drag it away, that usually doesn't work for me. I would honestly like some other advice on this type of scenario. What do you do in that instant where you see it coming?

I am not a Cesar supporter by any means. My mom bought two of his books for me and I did read them, if nothing else to figure out what the hell he's thinking. I do not get NatGeo, but I have watched the show. I agree, he cannot read dogs. His idea of 'calm submissive' is a scared/shut down dog. You want a lesson in calming signals? Watch Dog Whisperer.

He has mellowed a little in the newest episodes I have caught. Still uses the same methods, but he does seem to promote positive training more often.

The idea of flooding was brought up. While I'm not a fan of flooding a few well respected people on here use a version of flooding. Its the CAT method. Flood the dog with something it hates/is scared of then remove said scary thing when the dog ceases reacting. IMO this is a type of flooding. While it is taken a lot slower and more calculated than what Cesar does, it's still a type of flooding.

Millan DOES offer some good advice. Exercise your dog. A lot. Also, NILIF. Of course, does JQP get the message? Probably not, but that's because Cesar doesn't explain it well, or at all. He offers plenty of bad advice as well.

Lots of people mentioned being ticked that they would air the fight scene. Well, I'm kinda w/ Bahamutt on this, until I have seen a clip of the actual episode I'm not 100% sure it was aired on TV. The clip we all saw could be an extra, or something that slipped out on the internet. There may be missing elements that we didn't see. What I saw wasn't good, but a dog fight can break out anywhere, anytime.

Is it bad for pit bulls? I don't really know. Is it better to NEVER show what can happen when two mature pit bulls don't get along? Is it better to shield the public from the breed's past or hide the fact that many PB owners DO seperate their dogs? Everyone *should* research a breed before getting one, but we all know that a lot of people don't.


ETA- He doesn't say no dog needs love, or anything like that. What he said is "Love and affection come after exercise and discipline" Basically "Positive is not permissive"

 

[mrose_s]

Garry's the best "hugger" i've ever met. He just loves it. If you sit on the floor he'll come up and just entangle himself in you. He's happiest in teh most awkward positions possible so long as he can rest his head nice to close to your face to sleep.

 

[Dekka]

Everyone has remarked on the fact that Millan said "Oh, this could be a problem" when the dogs started posturing. I noticed that too, before he said it. Anyway, so what would you (general 'you') have done?

It was obvious before that. And they took at least 5 steps after he said that and still did nothing.

What I would have done was either call the dogs (can work with mine).. he didnt' even do his 'stomp' thing. If not I would have calmly started telling people what to do if it started to go wrong.

First off I dont' think it was a horrid fight. I have heard it was aired and my issue is with that. If those dogs had meant it it would have been much much worse. Heck my dogs have done much much worse. Hoses do nothing, at least on a real fight. Pulling dogs does nothing. I would have choked off dogs, or used break sticks.

No of course people shouldn't hide what terriers can do. BUT to show it on television and act like its all the dog's fault. How about the fact that he let a dog with a history of issues get all anxious and uptight and didn't do anything about it even when he said that the owners could trigger something by showing up? It seems very irresponsible to me.

ETA- He doesn't say no dog needs love, or anything like that. What he said is "Love and affection come after exercise and discipline" Basically "Positive is not permissive"

actually yes he does in an article that was quoted-From CM's article How to Let Your Dog be a Dog

Quote:
"Many clients I work with are surprised to learn that dogs don’t need love and affection to lead healthy, balanced lives."

 

[OutlineACDs]

Once again, I am not on Cesar's side, but... Quoted directly from his book, which I literally blew dust off of...

The formula is simple: in order to have a balanced dog, you must provide three things:
exercise
discipline
affection ... in that order.

Edited again to add: I just think that a lot of people are not fully trying to see "the other side". Yes, I came from positive punishment training just like most of you on here. I only clicker train now. I do not EVER tell people to physically punish their dogs as a means to accomplish anything. It just kind of aggravates me that the same people (honestly, not pointing any fingers at ALL) get angry, aggravated when an ordinance is about to be passed that tell you to s/n your animals, or that your breed must be muzzled in public. These same people don't want to be descriminated against because they own a certain breed or choose not to neuter/spay their dogs, but they want to tell this guy how to work with dogs. Its a two-way street, I don't want to be told how to train dogs and I don't want to be todl I have to s/n my dogs and I don't want to have to move because my breed gets banned. (Sorry, kind of went off on a rant, hope it made sense)

 

[elegy]

It just kind of aggravates me that the same people (honestly, not pointing any fingers at ALL) get angry, aggravated when an ordinance is about to be passed that tell you to s/n your animals, or that your breed must be muzzled in public. These same people don't want to be descriminated against because they own a certain breed or choose not to neuter/spay their dogs, but they want to tell this guy how to work with dogs. Its a two-way street, I don't want to be told how to train dogs and I don't want to be todl I have to s/n my dogs and I don't want to have to move because my breed gets banned. (Sorry, kind of went off on a rant, hope it made sense)

but nobody's telling you how you must train your dog, and even if they are making suggestions, there's no mandate. the government wasn't saying you must clicker train your dog or we're taking him away, or you must use a choke collar or you'll get fined. there's no comparison.

the concern here is that we have a guy who is a tv personality who, yeah, has good timing and presence with a lot of dogs and can make a good tv show, but who is putting forth a lot of dangerous, disproven information, and who is encouraging owners to use methods which are in some cases traumatic and potentially even abusive.

 

[polly_pop]

Everyone has remarked on the fact that Millan said "Oh, this could be a problem" when the dogs started posturing. I noticed that too, before he said it. Anyway, so what would you (general 'you') have done?

For one thing, I wouldn't have had 15-30 dogs (or however many) running around freely when the owners came back to see their dog! An ounce of prevention blah blah blah. I really think this is the number one issue. TOO MANY DOGS. I don't care whose pack it is; you have less influence over the mood and focus of 30 dogs than you have over the mood and focus of one or two or three. They interact with and feed off of each other -- that is a fact of life when you share your space with multiple dogs.

Secondly, I would have put Trinity in a sit-stay or down-stay and given her attention when she was focusing calmly on her owners, rather than ignoring her and letting her get more and more excited and aroused and jumping and posturing at all the other dogs.

Thirdly, when I saw that she and the other dogs were getting over the top and beginning to posture, I would have broken the tension by distracting them by asking them to do something else. I have no idea what Millan's pack's obedience training is like, but with my dogs, I can ask for a sit, to focus on me, or to stop acting up and go somewhere else. Getting them to stop looking at each other and perform an alternative behavior decreases the intensity and even if it doesn't completely avert the fight, it gives you a moment to figure out something else to do to avert the fight.

I'm not 100% sure it was aired on TV. The clip we all saw could be an extra, or something that slipped out on the internet. There may be missing elements that we didn't see. What I saw wasn't good, but a dog fight can break out anywhere, anytime.

I saw the whole episode; this scene was aired -- repeatedly, because I caught the show as a rerun, and saw it then. The scene was not an extra and did not slip out onto the internet. (There is, additionally, way more in the ep to be offended over, if you're so inclined.)

 

[corgipower]

Do you think that people with phobias should be flooded with calm support too? You know they have tried that.. you should read up what happens to people when that happens.

:yikes:
As someone who has plenty of phobias, just the thought of being flooded makes me want to crawl into a hole.

Or perhaps they're born submissive because they're born blind and unable to walk.

Too true. :rofl1:
Great post TGR.

But puppies are so responsive to crouching down and opening your arms wide. Just look how they are so apt to come running up to you.

Yup. That's how I begin teaching recalls. It sucks for my knees, but it's worth the pain.

As for the statement about loud, reactive dogs having loud, reactive owners - I could bring in a circus act and Morgan would barely wake up. She's about as non-reactive as a dog can be and still be alive.

As for what I would have done in the instance of the fight? I would have taken precautions to prevent it. I wouldn't have had all the dogs out, including Trinity, when the owner showed up. The kennel I used to work at did daycamp. A big playgroup of dogs for the day. All were dog-friendly. We had a policy that the owners weren't allowed in the play room. When the owners picked up their dogs, they always wanted to go see their dog with his friends. We knew that would excite the dog in question and disturb the dynamics of the group.

 

[Angelique]

Sure. I also consider the possibility that loud, reactive dogs have loud, reactive owners and the dogs are mirroring the humans they live with. Unless this is addressed, the specific methods chosen have a reduced chance of success, IMO.

Okay, if this comment came off sounding like I was stating all loud, reactive dogs have loud, reactive owners. That was not my intention.

Although I do believe the behavior and mental state of an owner (or any other being a dog lives with) can have a great influence on the dog's mental state and behavior, there are many other combinations than the one example.

An aggressive (or loud and reactive) dog may have a very passive owner.

I do believe the best place to start with a dog who is having social or behavioral issues, is to study the behavior of the owner (and all other members of the household who interact with that dog) within the home environment.

 

[perla123]

I found a link for what happens when they bring the dog back home. here it is

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/series/dog-whisperer/3263/Overview#tab-Videos/05667_00

 

[TheGoldenRetriever]

Anyway, so what would you (general 'you') have done?

What I would have done differently is not have the owners re-unite with their dog in the presence of a large pack of loose dogs! Of course the dog is going to get excited upon seeing her owners, she had been separated from them for some time. Considering her aggression issues, getting excited could very well escalate into setting her off. Millan himself said he was concerned about the re-unite, he thought there might be a problem.

So why set up the dog for failure? Likely it had more to do with trying to make for "good TV". If it had gone well Millan could say he successfully re-trained this dog out of her inter-dog aggression. Which is not to say the results would have been long-lasting ... but TV viewers don't think about tomorrow, only what they see in front of them today. Considering what did happen, can Millan say he "rehabilitated" this dog, even for a little while? No. But he did set her up for failure, even though by his own comments beforehand he knew better!! That was irresponsible and potentially dangerous.

It's also dangerous to owners and their children to promote physical confrontations of aggressive dogs. It's dangerous to dogs to promote extensively heavy exercise without knowing a dog's medical history. It's dangerous to promote a "45-minute power-walk every morning" as well as further exercise ... for young puppies! Veterinarians and breeders know this causes bone and cartilage damage in growing pups, so they advise against over-working young puppies. But Millan does not seem to know.

Never have I heard him admit that some behavioral issues could have a medical basis, including aggression. If aggression is a new problem with a previously stable dog it may very well involve an endocrine disorder or pain from another hidden medical condition. Yet not once have I heard Millan advise to have a dog checked by a vet before subjecting it to strenuous exercise or any of his other techniques.

I firmly believe in being cordial even in disagreement, because it's not possible to reach a person by making them feel personally attacked. But considering all I have heard, seen, and read from Millan I don't believe I could be cordial to that person ... which is exactly what was meant by "calm and :::ahem::: assertive" in the last post. What happened to the Lab at his facility was criminal ... and this was his friend's dog!!

the concern here is that we have a guy who is a tv personality who, yeah, has good timing and presence with a lot of dogs and can make a good tv show, but who is putting forth a lot of dangerous, disproven information, and who is encouraging owners to use methods which are in some cases traumatic and potentially even abusive.

^^^ Yes, yes, ... exactly!!

Whether or not it seems "fair", Millan does have to be held to a higher standard precisely because he and his techniques have so much exposure. Not just through NGC, but also celebrity endorsements and countless articles and appearances. I have seen and heard media promote Millan as a "renowned dog behavioral expert" when even HE does not label himself as such .... but he also does not correct those who do.

I like this article from the San Francisco Gate ... it contrasts Cesar Millan and Ian Dunbar. Dunbar does NOT directly or personally attack Millan, but he does dispute his techniques. On the subject of treating pet dogs like wolves, there's an excellent analogy from Dunbar at the end of this excerpt:

While distaste for Millan might be growing, Dunbar focuses on discounting the myths such training ideas foster. Dogs aren't wolves, Dunbar says, generations of evolution separate the two animals. "Learning from wolves to interact with pet dogs makes about as much sense as, 'I want to improve my parenting -- let's see how the chimps do it!' "

Here's the article link:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/10/15/CMGPHL9D1N1.DTL

 

[Laurelin]

Not to drag up old threads, but I showed this on another dog forum and everyone was praising him for how well he took care of the fight! I'm kind of shocked to say the least...

 

[Brattina88]

Wow...
I have an issue with other dog forums... that's why I stay on Chaz the most

You know that Joel Silverman guy who was on here... he's on another forum I visit and they worship him. I'm having a really hard time with it - keeping my mouth shut. The owner of the forum threatened to boot me last year because I was trying to help people with food decisions. He said I was using scare tactics and it wouldn't be tolerated. (he's a breeder who feeds purina) *sigh* maybe I should quit now while I'm ahead haha

 

[Dekka]

Not to drag up old threads, but I showed this on another dog forum and everyone was praising him for how well he took care of the fight! I'm kind of shocked to say the least...

:yikes: I hope those people never have to deal with a fight themselves!!! AND the whole point it why let a fight happen just for ratings ?

 

[Angelique]

Eeek! It's the thread that would not die! :yikes:

Actually, I don't think the fight and the attack on Daddy was left in the episode for ratings. Cesar (and his producers and editors) get a lot of heat and accusations about what (possibly) gets edited out of the episodes, and what goes on which we don't see in every episode.

Victoria's show is also edited.

The reality is, dogs bite. Dogs attack each other. Dogs have minor squabbles. Dogs have major fights. Sometimes they bite people. Sometimes they kill other pets. Sometimes they get put down for this and even lesser infractions through no fault of their own.

There's a lot we don't see which goes on when someone works on an individual basis with a dog and owner, or recommends a dog be put to death because the preferred method, belief system, or skill level of a professional fails.

 

[Dekka]

Umm it totally helped his ratings. People (like me lol) watch it just to see the horror. I hate the show and dont' watch it for the most part. I remember hearing that people who hated Howard Stern spent more time listening to his show than the people who loved it.

And if it wasn't done for ratings then Mr Dog Whisperer sucks at ready even basic dog language. AND he wasn't prepared for a fight... even though he admits its a possibility. So either way he looks like a big doofus. It doesn't matter how much he worked with the dog and owners.. he either dropped the ball big time, or let it happen for ratings.

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Wow...
I have an issue with other dog forums... that's why I stay on Chaz the most

You know that Joel Silverman guy who was on here... he's on another forum I visit and they worship him. I'm having a really hard time with it - keeping my mouth shut. The owner of the forum threatened to boot me last year because I was trying to help people with food decisions. He said I was using scare tactics and it wouldn't be tolerated. (he's a breeder who feeds purina) *sigh* maybe I should quit now while I'm ahead haha

Didn't happen to be a board for a specific breed did it?

 

[Brattina88]

Didn't happen to be a board for a specific breed did it?

yes - sound familiar?

 

[MafiaPrincess]

Yeah it does haha. I'm a member but can't force myself to participate. It's all about the shoddy breeding of dogs that shouldn't be bred.. Everything makes me want to scream and I was tired of standing alone..