Did anyone else see this? Just horrific!!!

Angelique

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#61
Not down on +R at all. I just have issues with where certain extremists take it.

When teaching tasks, tricks and specific behaviors, +R (one of the four quadrants of OC) can be used almost exclusively. It excells in the agility arena.

When it comes to potty training, I use mostly classical conditioning rather than strictly +R/OC. Potty trained a horse (on accident) this way.

When dealing with social issues, I use primarily social learning, even though OC and CC will still be present and useful.

It kind of depends on how each of us understands the various philosophies, sciences, and methods in our current toolbox and what we are trying to achieve with a given animal within a given moment, and over all.
 
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#62
Not at all. I try to avoid using words like anyone, everyone, never, and always.

I'm just saying a lot more depends on the owner and their choice of methods (for whatever reason) than the method or the dog alone. The owner and their daily interactions along with their relationship with their dog seems to be the greatest influence on a dogs mental state and behavior, IMOAE.
I can't imagine a smaller toolkit and range of philosophies than I use right now, and I'm always adjusting it and adding more.
I can't imagine that anyone would disagree with this. :)

That's exactly why I've never offered a board and train situation and also why I provide support for the life of the dog if necessary.

Every one of my clients is clear on the fact that training is NOT about me and their dog but rather the family, environment, lifestyle, friends, all variables that affect behavior..and the dog.

While I do not use techniques that encourage behavior suppression (pain, fear, flooding) in any rehab. program, my methods are not 'one size fits all'.

Over 90% of my reactivity clients are initially addressed using desensitization and counterconditioning but there are those cases where other methods (CAT for example) are the final choice.

I have yet to meet a dog for whom behavior suppression has made him a dog that I'd trust around his trigger. In order to change behavior, you have to change the way a dog feels about a trigger. I've done it both ways and still feel guilt over the dogs that I used to send back into the world 'cured' through punishment.

Every single episode that I see of Cesars, as soon as the problem is discussed...I know exactly what he's going to do next.
 
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#63
I'm usually excited to go to puppy class (I have a 2:30 and 3:30 class) but I'm enjoying this discussion so much that I want to stay home today:D

I hope that we can keep this moving in the positive way that it's been going so far.

I'll be back after class to continue!!

See ya.....I'm off to have puppy fun!! *me trying to make you jealous*:D:p
 

Angelique

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#65
IDK...I had a client once that I offered a trade to. But they were ambivalent about keeping the dog (who was showing aggression) and they were moving 1000 miles away the next week. They were the ones who first mentioned maybe rehoming the dog and could I take it, and at the time I had a dog looking for a home. I couldn't have another dog, but I told them I'd be willing to trade.

That was over the phone before going out there. Once I was there, it didn't take long to see that they would do fine with the dog they had and there was no trade.

I also had a client who I told, in no uncertain terms, that they needed to rehome their dog. Which they did - and I helped them do it.

*shrugs*
My youngster is an ACD mix who was just way too much dog for his elderly owners. I was called in to do a consultation and skill session with them last January. I had been open to getting another dog, but wanted a challenging breed and knew the right situation would come along when it was meant to be.

The owners are still "grandma and grandpa", we still keep in touch, and they ended up getting another dog through a rescue who was a better match for them.

Well, I got my wish...Little Mr. Bitey (Nicki) has been a great learning experience and brought me back into the world of puppies after having only adult shelter dogs for the past 15 years.

(I adjusted my philosophies and methods to fit this particular dog and his age.)
 

perla123

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#66
WOW..just wow.

I can’t believe what I just saw. And he actually says "Oh this might be a problem" wile the dogs are tensing up!!!:mad:. Why didn't he do something then? It looks like they cut some seconds off before they actually got into the fight. And to put the dogs together after the fight!!! I can't believe it.
 

perla123

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#67
Exactly, and very typical. As are his comments like 'this is good', or 'yes, we want to see this', when things are going wrong and he CAN'T blame it on anyone else. It's just crazy to me that he get's away with it..
OMG this totally confirms what you are saying. Listen to what he says wile the dog is trying to get to CM own dog.

I can't imagine some one that doesn't know what they are doing trying to do this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAJkFhOw6p4
 
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#68
Uh huh, and I participated on a dog board where the advice of the +R's in their support of the owner's denial, even when her (in person) clicker trainer was not helping, directly led to a child being bitten in the face.
^^^ Parent's fault.
The child should have been kept away from that dog if aggression was an issue ... for the protection of the child. The child should never have had opportunity to have his/her face close enough to that dog to get it bitten ... regardless of what anyone on some web message board said.

Locally, a +R trainer (who I recommended to help with SA) instructed the owner to never tell ner dog "NO", ignore the bad, and only reward the good which led to her dog marking in the house and growling at her child..
Personally I'm not against verbal corrections for dogs, such as "No!" ..."Ah-ah!" or "Hey!"

What I am against are PHYSICAL corrections. But then I don't believe in corporal punishment for children either. True leadership, in my view, does not include psychological intimidation and physical punishments.

Spoiled, bratty dogs bite. Dogs trained with +R only methods also bite. Sorry, reality check..
and then there's this:
I hope that shows that positive DOES NOT mean permissive!!! :D
Dekka hits the nail on the head, as usual. :)

"Positive" and "Permissive" are not the same thing!

Some people disdain +R methods because they have seen results of those who used them incorrectly ... exactly by assuming Positive=Permissive.

Very similar to positive child-rearing ... it doesn't mean "permissive" either ... if you're permissive you're doing it wrong. This is another reason why CM is so very popular ... it's a backlash because of years of +R training being misinterpreted and misused to mean "permissive".

Permissive = Anything goes ... do whatever you want, everything is tolerated.
Authoritarian = My way or the highway, and makes use of intimidation and physical corrections.
Authoritative = Postive leadership ... but still leadership. It means assessing the individual and adjusting where needed, but without resorting to physical corrections.

Permissive is just wrong. Authoritarian methods are what CM uses. Authoritative is properly used +R ... it isn't anything-goes-permissive.
 

Tahla9999

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#69
Um, has anyone NOT seen the full episode, or is everyone just judging it by one scene?
 

ihartgonzo

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#70
Um, has anyone NOT seen the full episode, or is everyone just judging it by one scene?
Well... I feel that a scene in which multiple dog fights break out COMPLETELY due to CM's negligence is a valuable scene in and of itself. NO amount of excuses/backstory/whatever could make that okay, to me. D: I find it sad that you, particularly, defend his careless, reckless, aggressive methods.

I love your posts in this thread, Dr2. :hail: I wish more people could hear about your experiences, and the dogs/people that you have helped.
 

elegy

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#71
Very similar to positive child-rearing ... it doesn't mean "permissive" either ... if you're permissive you're doing it wrong. This is another reason why CM is so very popular ... it's a backlash because of years of +R training being misinterpreted and misused to mean "permissive".
yes yes yes.

i guess i just fail to grasp why people don't understand that positive training can be done incorrectly, too, and with potentially terrible results. that doesn't make the method ineffective. it makes the trainer ineffective.

i bought susan garrett's book ruff love awhile ago and was totally turned off by how harsh it is, especially for performance dogs who really don't have any "behavior problems". and yet she's one of the biggest names in positive training out there. and none of the stuff in the book is coercion of any type, no physical correction or punishment at all. positive is absolutely and certainly not always permissive.
 

lizzybeth727

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#72
Um, has anyone NOT seen the full episode, or is everyone just judging it by one scene?
I really don't think there is any more to be seen, to judge that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about and is clearly not very concerned with safety of his dogs or the humans around. Why do I say this?

1. He lets the owners get out of their car with all the dogs running around loose around them. He says "The presence and energy of the owners can directly affect Trinity's behavior, I monitor the situation closely." Which is a valid point. But he doesn't give the owners any instructions until after they get out of the car, with the dogs all around. They clearly don't know what to do and are uncomfortable with the situation, especially when Trinity is jumping on the lady.

2. He doesn't let the owners interract at all with Trinity, causing her some frustration. Any dingbat knows you don't want a dog aggressive dog, who's loose around other dogs, to get frustrated.

3. As Trinity jumps on the lady (sorry, don't remember her name), CM says "That could cause a fight," but he continues letting Trinity jump for at least 20 seconds before finally instructing them what to do when she jumps. 20 seconds is a LONG time, especially when fights can start at the drop of a hat. IMO he's very lucky she didn't start fighting right then.

4. The dogs start sniffing each other, and CM says, "That could be a problem." FIVE SECONDS later (which is a LONG time, but I also think there was a time cut, so it was probably even longer), the fight starts.

CM saw that a fight was about to happen for at least 30 seconds, yet he did nothing. At the VERY least he should have put leashes on at least one dog, so that when the fight happened he'd be able to break it up easier.

5. To break up the fight, CM and another guy held the two dogs up by the neck. Any dingbat knows that this is a really great way to get the dog to bite YOU, with displaced aggression. Instead you're supposed to either use an object to break their grip (personally I find a water hose fairly effective), and then grab the dogs, or just grab them behind the BACK legs, and pick their back legs up off the ground. This makes it much harder for them to continue biting, and it keeps you out of the way. Yet he defends what he did ("That just put a pause in their biting mechanism") so now anyone who saw that episode thinks that is the best way to break up a fight.

6. Again, after the fight, CM says, "When Monica and Justin came to visit Trinity, there was a possibility that they could trigger the wrong reaction," which not only puts the blame on the owners again, but also shows that CM had an idea that a fight could happen, but again, didn't do anything about it.

7. Then not only does he put the dogs together in the same run, but he says it's to "create peace, create harmony." Those poor dogs are not fighting because they're exhausted. Fights take a tremendous amount of energy, not to mention an adrenaline rush, and afterwards the dogs may seem calm. Their body language CLEARLY says otherwise.


If anyone thinks he did the right thing in this scene, especially given whatever he does in the rest of the episode, I'd love to hear it.
 

mrose_s

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#73
kinda off topic maybe but

I've found it so much easier with these dogs since we started rotating them. The stress of having to watch Harry for the second his eyes hardened that slight bit that meant he was about to fly into Mac is gone because he just doesn't get the chance to.
The are all in the lounge room in the evenings, all with collars and Harry on a leash and he is to stay at my mums feet, Buster is to stay at mine and Mac is to stay on her rug on the couch.
We're now turning our backyard into 3 yards to seperate them so they can rotate more easily.

Buster has turned into a puppy again, he plays like a mad thing because he doesn't have to keep his macho face on for Harry.

I've had times of being in the kitchen and turning around and both boys are sitting next to each other looking at me, times they've stepped right over each other faces without incident, then last week Harry was in the kitchen on leash, Buster was out the back just standing around. Harry just got up and started walking to the back door, my sister called him, he kept going, she grabbed the leash and before she could pull him back he attacked Buster. Buster fought back as long as he was being attacked and my sister was right there, grabbed Harry's front end off the ground, he stopped, Buster dropped back immediatley. No, not the best way to break up a fight but Harry has never not once had any hin of redirected aggression onto one of us.
But the sounds that kept coming out of Harry were insane, big deep growls even thought Buster was out of sight now, she turned him around and kept holding him up so he wasn't looking out the back anymore and he soon stopped.

I went out to check on Buster and he was shaking all over, so not like him to get freaked out about something like that.

I never expect these two to be "rehabilitated", that big fight they had ruined it, and honestly, I'm glad someone was home as I think maybe it was probably inevitable. Rotating makes everyones lives easier, including Harry's, he's not in trouble anymore

CM wouldn't be allowed within 100m's of my dog.
 

Miakoda

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#74
I showed my husband this thread and he had a good idea: let CM come to OUR home....full of APBTs.....full of APBTs that give no more warning other than a "I'm happy tail wag with my tongue hanging out the side of my mouth, not because I want to play but because in 2 steps you're going to be within my reach and then it's on!"

I have no doubt in my mind that CM would leave my home with his own tail between his legs. And heaven knows none of it would make it to t.v. Because I'm 100% confident around my dogs and I know the ins & outs of each and ever dogs. And the truth is, many of the APBTs like to fight. I know that's a hard concept to grasp for some people, but imagine saying that a Border Collie herding sheep is unhappy with what he's doing. Or that the Bloodhound SAR dog is unhappy searching & finding that child. No matter what we percieve to be cruel or morally wrong when it comes to APBTs, the dogs are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves. I've had several that will look the other way and hope for dear life no dog ever attacks them because they had no desire to fight back. But the others, well.........it's what they look for on a daily basis.

And sure, crating and rotating can get old. But it beats scrubbing blood off your walls and having to explain to the Stanley Steamer guy why they are there trying to get blood out of your couches. Personally, it doesn't bother me. It's only an inconvenience if you don't want to do it and if you don't want to do it, don't own dogs that require it. ;)

And much of what CM states is actually just common sense. But it's amazing that people lack it and that they believe he's a miracle worker that came up with all the concepts. I mean seriously, dogs need exercise? Whodathunkit?
 

Tahla9999

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#75
Well... I feel that a scene in which multiple dog fights break out COMPLETELY due to CM's negligence is a valuable scene in and of itself. NO amount of excuses/backstory/whatever could make that okay, to me. D: I find it sad that you, particularly, defend his careless, reckless, aggressive methods.

I love your posts in this thread, Dr2. :hail: I wish more people could hear about your experiences, and the dogs/people that you have helped.
If your talking about my incident, I said it once, and I will say it again, I do not blame him! It is not like he has a message before the show that says '' Do this method'' in fact, if you hadn't notice, before the show even starts they always have a sign that says'' Do not perform these techniques without consulting a professional.'' I blame myself for being right there and not warning her about it for I know more about it then she does.

I do not agree with all his methods and I highly prefer that lady on animal planet. I have seen the episode when it first came out, and although there were many scenes that I couldn't believe that was on there, I felt that Ceaser at least made the dog less reactive to other dogs. I do hope the owners continue to separate the dogs especially when they are not home.
 

Doberluv

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#76
He's already been sued, at least twice. Supposedly both settled out of court for undisclosed amounts.
Once by a television producer who's Labrador Retriever was seriously injured at CM's "Canine Psychology Center". A choke collar was put on the dog, he was then tied to an electronic treadmill and left unattended. The dog was forced to run on it until he was exhausted and had collapsed. The dog sustained several injuries, including body bruising and a severely damaged trachea that required several surgeries and tube feeding. Brief details here:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-05-dog-whisperer_x.htm

He was sued for breach of contract by his former publicist. She and her company had been promoting CM, introducing him to celebrities, and pitching a show for him . Despite having a contract with the publicist CM had done a secret end-run and approached NGC on his own, backed by celebrity contacts originally introduced by the original publicist. Details here:

http://www.keyt.com/entertainment/2723596.html



Really Angelique. Nobody's accusing CM of satanic sacrifices of dogs by a full moon at midnight. It's not all that dramatic.

Some of what he advocates is sound. It's important to establish leadership, many dogs don't get enough exercise, setting boundaries and limitations is important. It's also important to be a calm leader ... dogs don't respond well to nervous-nellies or screamy-meemies.

Some of what he advocates is nothing new. Much of it is based on NILIF ... making the dog "work" for resources and affection. But it's his methods that are not based on sound and proven dog behaviorism, and some of his methods are dangerous. This is the subtle difference most people miss ... what he advocates is sound (on a very basic level) but his methods are not. His methods are designed at getting "quick fixes" ... that's what makes them so appealing to the general public.

Establishing leadership doesn't equal establishing fear ... that's not a leader, that's a coward who's "leadership" is shaky at best. Leadership means instilling RESPECT, not fear. Dogs shouldn't be "exercised" using choke collars and tying them to treadmills. (Did you know that's exactly one of the methods illegal dog-fighters use to "work" their dogs?) Setting boundaries and limitations does not mean using intimidation and force. Physically confronting aggressive dogs is a good way to get bitten. Did you see the recent thread from Tahla? Her mother, a CM fan, tried CM's confrontation methods to "cure" their family dog of aggression. It didn't work ... instead her mom was severely bitten and the dog had to be put down. She had tried his method of "reclaiming" for food aggression, with tragic results. It was terribly sad.

Many of his methods are based on fear, punishment and flooding. That last one is a concept of intimidation, forcing a dog into a situation it fears ... with hopes of a quick fix at desensitization. That's not humane!! If you had a phobia regarding snakes I would not try to cure you by tossing you into a vat of snakes until you froze in fear ... then label you "cured". :rolleyes:

Did you catch the episode where CM used exactly that method to "cure" a Great Dane of his fear of walking on highly-waxed shiny floors? (Common fear in Danes ... and for good reason. People who can't deal humanely with it shouldn't get a Dane.) The owner had simply been using area-rug carpet runners, but CM advocated taking them up and forcing the dog instead.

The end result was called a "cure". But if you watched closely you could see the Great Dane's head was lowered, he was drooling profusely, and his tail was tucked. That dog wasn't cured ... he was terrified. Sure, he "did what he was told" ... but nearly frozen in fear while doing so. To really observe the dog's behavior it helps to mute the sound. Without CM's constant and confidently-stated background chatter, it's much easier to see what's right in front of you without being misled.
:hail:

Exactly. Very good post. I don't know what it is that so many people don't know what they're looking at when they observe dogs, their expressions, their body language. It's not that hard to see. CM clearly misreads and misinterprets dog body language and facial expressions. (personally, I think he's just too full of himself and his Hollywood schmooze to begin to try to notice, even if he could)

This isn't about burning witches at the stake. Those New England women were innocent and the witch hunt was comprised of ignorant, superstitious, nasty people. It's just the opposite here. The people who are horrified at what has transpired are people who love, respect and cherish dogs and who are knowledgeable about dogs. What we're seeing is abuse, exploitation and a complete misunderstanding of how dogs ARE. We're seeing people follow this stuff who don't know any better and there are far too many adverse consequences to dogs due to this stuff. I have to wonder too, how people sometimes say in regards to his disclaimer, "Yes, people try to immitate what he does, but they don't know what they're doing." Is that as if to say he does? He doesn't know what he's doing either. There is NO correct way to alpha roll a dog, to strangle and drag a dog or the other horrifying ways he handles dogs. Sure, bla bla bla...leadership, exercise, discipline. Yada yada. We've heard all that before CM or grandparents were even conceived.

Believe me, there's a very organized effort being lead by Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller, their friends, collegues, fellow APDT members, and faithful followers of radical behaviorism.
It's not about "radical" behaviorists. It's people who know dogs. Simple as that. CM does not. And anyone who follows his unreasonable and abusive methods does not. Labeling people as "radical" who know, love and care about dogs, regardless of the degree is absurd and doesn't track.

Fortunately, the "Our way is the only way" () folks certainly don't speak for everyone.
That is unfortunate. Having empathy for dogs, recognizing blatant mistreatment, and treating dogs humanely IS the ONLY way that these gifts to mankind should be treated. How dare people go along with or commit such bullying and force toward another species!

Good reading, constructive, and very little hysteria. :)
As far as that article, being pleased that there was no "hysteria" confuses me. Why shouldn't people become outraged and emotional? That is a completely normal reaction when you see someone or something you love being exploited and put into a position where they feel fear and receive injury. Being stupid or uncaring and doing everything possible that would make it highly likely to instigate a dog fight is outrageous!

Watching that Great Dane episode just broke my heart seeing him struggle. Several of his episodes made me cringe and cry...dragging a Lab by a choke chain across a floor like that as well until the dogs air was being cut off and he was gasping, tail down and frothing/drooling. To watch him yank straight up on a choke collar on a dog's trachea who was walking nicely, but merely turned his head toward the side, is not compassionate or reasonable. That was another episode. There are so many examples of cruel treatmen on his show. If someone can watch this, doesn't feel empathy, if this doesn't raise one's heart or respiration rate, doesn't make them nearly explode with sadness and anger, then it makes me question their whole premise that they love dogs. Either that or they still don't know any better and are blind.

There ARE humane ways to achieve the wanted results. Those Dane owners already had the right idea by using carpet remnants and gradually getting him use to it. Too bad they didn't continue on that course.

Angelique, you don't seem to promote harshness to dogs, not only do I get this from your posts, but from my observation of you and your dog in person...you seemed very gentle from what I could see... and yet you continue to defend this guy who clearly doesn't know a fearful, defensive dog from a "dominant" "alpha" dog. He labels body language so obviously incorrectly. I don't understand. I am bewildered. This stubborn refusal to open your eyes and see what is happening right before you on TV and these written accounts is baffling. To criticize or make fun of people, label them "radical" or "my way is the only way" behaviorists who are gentle and kind to dogs, who are able to train and rehabilitate dogs to have exemplary behavior, who do not believe in harming dogs in the name of human/dog relationships is beyond comprehension. There is ONLY one way. And it IS my way is the only way...being humane and gentle. And that is diametrically opposed to Cesar's way.

Someone asked if we had seen the whole thing, if all we saw was a little example....as if seeing a little bit of horror didn't tell enough of the story. As someone once said, "If part of the salad is rotten, do you have to eat the whole thing to know it's rotten?" :(
 

Angelique

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#79
Thanks Carrie. :)

And having seen you, I can attest you're no whimp. Though your choice of philosophies is +R, you are no-nonsense when you are in "mom" mode and telling the "kids" to settle down. ;)

I (primarily) use projecting who I am by my behavior and my body language to establish my position in relation to the dog I'm working with. I also use my own dogs to demonstrate my position by how they behave towards me. But Cesar constantly works on the owners and does this too.

I also read more social communication and mental state in a dog's body language than emotional state.

As I said, I support Cesar because I had already reached some of the same conclusions he has, not from just reading books or watching his show, but from the animals themselves long before his show aired. This includes ex-race horses, adult shelter dogs, and pack of teenage boys.

I do, however, draw the line at rehabbing grown men. ;)

"Radical Behaviorism" is not my term. Look it up on the net. In much of my reading and study, a lot the same debates have been going on in the world of human psychology and behaviorism, as have been going on in the dog world.

Go read through the Cesar/Dog Whisperer "Fans and Friends" Yahoo group started by CJ Anderson. Are people making progress and helping each other? Are they resolving their dogs issues? Are they reaching their goal of a happy, healthy, balanced dog who is a safe, stable member of society and welcomed anywhere? Compare that to all of the "reactivity" and avoidance which seems to be a constant problem with dogs being trained by strictly "positive only" practitioners.

The thing is, I see three different fields of study going on here. Not just OC. Not just Cesar. I'm currently exploring and using more classical conditioning these days.

Now, I have no problem with people not liking Cesar, and using their own choice of methods. I have no problem in honest critiques. I have no doubt Cesar pays attention, too.

What gets me cranky is when it becomes an organized crusade. What gets me cranky is the spread of misinformation and even lies. What gets me cranky is when attacking others takes the place of educating on the benefits of one's preferred methods. What gets me cranky is those who would rather put a dog down, than step outside their belief system. What gets me cranky is those who want to censor information and take away my rights to choose which tools or methods I will use with a given dog within a given moment because "some people are stupid".

IMO, there is so much more to discover and define which exists somewhere in the middle, when the sciences are combined and understood in more depth.

I defend my right to choose and hug Cesar if I want to. :)
 
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#80
Now, I have no problem with people not liking Cesar, and using their own choice of methods. I have no problem in honest critiques. I have no doubt Cesar pays attention, too.

What gets me cranky is when it becomes an organized crusade. What gets me cranky is the spread of misinformation and even lies. What gets me cranky is when attacking others takes the place of educating on the benefits of one's preferred methods. What gets me cranky is those who would rather put a dog down, than step outside their belief system. What gets me cranky is those who want to cesor information and take away my rights to choose which tools or methods I will use with a given dog within a given moment because "some people are stupid".

IMO, there is so much more to discover and define which exists somewhere in the middle, when the sciences are combined and understood in more depth.

I defend my right to choose and hug Cesar if I want to. :)
I usually avoid CM threads, I read for entertainment, but usually don't respond, but I really liked what you wrote and wanted to say thank you. Maybe it's the bias in me, but I think this is the most level and thought out response i've seen in a long time.
 

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