Did anyone else see this? Just horrific!!!
- Thread starter dr2little
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That's been going on since before his show aired. Before he was on Oprah. Believe me, there's a very organized effort being lead by Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller, their friends, collegues, fellow APDT members, and faithful followers of radical behaviorism.
Fortunately, the "Our way is the only way"
hail folks certainly don't speak for everyone.
opcorn:
Fortunately, the "Our way is the only way"
hail folks certainly don't speak for everyone. opcorn:
That's been going on since before his show aired. Before he was on Oprah. Believe me, there's a very organized effort being lead by Jean Donaldson, Pat Miller, their friends, collegues, fellow APDT members, and faithful followers of radical behaviorism.
Fortunately, the "Our way is the only way"hail folks certainly don't speak for everyone.
opcorn:
Fortunately, the "Our way is the only way"
hail folks certainly don't speak for everyone. opcorn:
I mean, if the network has been warned of the dangers of his methods since before he even aired, chose to air him anyway and people did start getting injured and dogs killed...seems like someone could build a solid case.
I think some of the anti CM comments are over the top.
Sometimes, a dog and owner just isn't a good match. I know a couple people who swapped dogs, and everyone involved came out much happier. One friend got a 6 month old Rhodesian Ridgeback mix. Mixed with what, I don't know, but it soon grew into a 130 pound heavy boned wall bouncer. A very nice dog, but with 3 little kids, the dog's energy was a safety hazard. He allowed the kids to do anything to him, and never showed any signs of aggression. Just his activity level along caused the kids to get hurt. Most of the time, it was kind of comical, but a couple of the kids really got hurt, so they began looking for a home for him. At the same time, his brother had a very laid back 2 year old Lab that wasn't really happy with his Rott housemate, as he wanted to play too roughly for his tastes. The solution came to them at a family dinner, they swapped them out. The Lab has a family where he had kids to play with, in a much more laid back way. The RR mix got a buddy who was as rough as he was, and they are a perfect match.
I know someone else who swapped a very hyper terrier mix for a very calm Dachshund with their neighbor, and that worked out well for over 12 years.
I have used some of CM's methods on King, and they do seem to work. He has no real aggression problems, but he does go off the deep end when he gets even slightly excited, like going to the vet, and using CM's methods to break the intensity seem to be having an effect on him, he's easier to handle since I started doing it. Not close to perfect, but better than the stuff I have tried in the past.
Sometimes, a dog and owner just isn't a good match. I know a couple people who swapped dogs, and everyone involved came out much happier. One friend got a 6 month old Rhodesian Ridgeback mix. Mixed with what, I don't know, but it soon grew into a 130 pound heavy boned wall bouncer. A very nice dog, but with 3 little kids, the dog's energy was a safety hazard. He allowed the kids to do anything to him, and never showed any signs of aggression. Just his activity level along caused the kids to get hurt. Most of the time, it was kind of comical, but a couple of the kids really got hurt, so they began looking for a home for him. At the same time, his brother had a very laid back 2 year old Lab that wasn't really happy with his Rott housemate, as he wanted to play too roughly for his tastes. The solution came to them at a family dinner, they swapped them out. The Lab has a family where he had kids to play with, in a much more laid back way. The RR mix got a buddy who was as rough as he was, and they are a perfect match.
I know someone else who swapped a very hyper terrier mix for a very calm Dachshund with their neighbor, and that worked out well for over 12 years.
I have used some of CM's methods on King, and they do seem to work. He has no real aggression problems, but he does go off the deep end when he gets even slightly excited, like going to the vet, and using CM's methods to break the intensity seem to be having an effect on him, he's easier to handle since I started doing it. Not close to perfect, but better than the stuff I have tried in the past.
there was a video clip on fox the other day of him taking a pit mix who the owner couldn't handle and letting it attack a golden puppy I could not believe what I was seeing!
he told them the pit was trying to calm the puppy down. thats why it jumped on the smaller dog.
Disgusting. I never really paid much attention to him.I figured some training is better than none for most dogs. But I have changed my opinion now.
I could not believe what I was seeing!he told them the pit was trying to calm the puppy down. thats why it jumped on the smaller dog.
Disgusting. I never really paid much attention to him.I figured some training is better than none for most dogs. But I have changed my opinion now.
B
SOmeone asked to see it... here's the clip of the fight... It doesn't show Milan asking the owners if they wanted to trade dogs.
http://br.truveo.com/Dog-Whisperer-Dueling-Pit-Bulls/id/3762085830
That just makes me sick. I won't say any more about him because last time I got the crap bashed out of me and I'm not in the mood for it, but WOW.
http://br.truveo.com/Dog-Whisperer-Dueling-Pit-Bulls/id/3762085830
That just makes me sick. I won't say any more about him because last time I got the crap bashed out of me and I'm not in the mood for it, but WOW.
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Then we need to start seeding the idea to sue Milan and the network into some lawyer's heads.
Once by a television producer who's Labrador Retriever was seriously injured at CM's "Canine Psychology Center". A choke collar was put on the dog, he was then tied to an electronic treadmill and left unattended. The dog was forced to run on it until he was exhausted and had collapsed. The dog sustained several injuries, including body bruising and a severely damaged trachea that required several surgeries and tube feeding. Brief details here:
http://www.usatoday.com/life/people/2006-05-05-dog-whisperer_x.htm
He was sued for breach of contract by his former publicist. She and her company had been promoting CM, introducing him to celebrities, and pitching a show for him . Despite having a contract with the publicist CM had done a secret end-run and approached NGC on his own, backed by celebrity contacts originally introduced by the original publicist. Details here:
http://www.keyt.com/entertainment/2723596.html
Really Angelique. Nobody's accusing CM of satanic sacrifices of dogs by a full moon at midnight. It's not all that dramatic.
Some of what he advocates is sound. It's important to establish leadership, many dogs don't get enough exercise, setting boundaries and limitations is important. It's also important to be a calm leader ... dogs don't respond well to nervous-nellies or screamy-meemies.
Some of what he advocates is nothing new. Much of it is based on NILIF ... making the dog "work" for resources and affection. But it's his methods that are not based on sound and proven dog behaviorism, and some of his methods are dangerous. This is the subtle difference most people miss ... what he advocates is sound (on a very basic level) but his methods are not. His methods are designed at getting "quick fixes" ... that's what makes them so appealing to the general public.
Establishing leadership doesn't equal establishing fear ... that's not a leader, that's a coward who's "leadership" is shaky at best. Leadership means instilling RESPECT, not fear. Dogs shouldn't be "exercised" using choke collars and tying them to treadmills. (Did you know that's exactly one of the methods illegal dog-fighters use to "work" their dogs?) Setting boundaries and limitations does not mean using intimidation and force. Physically confronting aggressive dogs is a good way to get bitten. Did you see the recent thread from Tahla? Her mother, a CM fan, tried CM's confrontation methods to "cure" their family dog of aggression. It didn't work ... instead her mom was severely bitten and the dog had to be put down. She had tried his method of "reclaiming" for food aggression, with tragic results. It was terribly sad.
Many of his methods are based on fear, punishment and flooding. That last one is a concept of intimidation, forcing a dog into a situation it fears ... with hopes of a quick fix at desensitization. That's not humane!! If you had a phobia regarding snakes I would not try to cure you by tossing you into a vat of snakes until you froze in fear ... then label you "cured".
Did you catch the episode where CM used exactly that method to "cure" a Great Dane of his fear of walking on highly-waxed shiny floors? (Common fear in Danes ... and for good reason. People who can't deal humanely with it shouldn't get a Dane.) The owner had simply been using area-rug carpet runners, but CM advocated taking them up and forcing the dog instead.
The end result was called a "cure". But if you watched closely you could see the Great Dane's head was lowered, he was drooling profusely, and his tail was tucked. That dog wasn't cured ... he was terrified. Sure, he "did what he was told" ... but nearly frozen in fear while doing so. To really observe the dog's behavior it helps to mute the sound. Without CM's constant and confidently-stated background chatter, it's much easier to see what's right in front of you without being misled.
Thanks for posting that BC, I couldn't find the clip but really wanted people to see it with their own eyes. Hard to find a reason to LOVE Cesar when you see how dangerous he really is.
The worst part of the clip is not the number of serious fights that broke out or even the fact that people without break sticks got right into the mix, it's the fact that it was chosen by the Cesar camp as one to display proudly as an example of how amazing he is...... Does anyone NOT see how wrong this is???
It's out there for everyone to see yet people still find some way to defend this kind of repugnant arrogance...
I just watched another part of an episode (had to turn it off) where he was teaching an owner how to redirect his intact male boxer when he fixated on an intact bulldog who he lived with and continually fought with.
While he did recommend neuter for both dogs, he then proceeded to attempt 'rehab' these intact males who have had over a year of practice fighting....that alone should be enough to prove to people that he has no clue. If this is not clearly setting these owners up with a false sense of security and the dogs for a fatal fight...I don't know what it is..
He, as usual, was instructing the owners to use their feet to 'snap the dog out of intention', though he himself was kicking and yanking, as was the owner. Really smart, add anxiety to an already volitile situation and expect it to work....
I wish all of the Cesar supporters could follow me around for a month just to see how many bite cases that are a result of The Dog Whisperer (not the real dog whisperer mind you.....Cesar Milan)
I hate the world we live in today. It's become more valuable to seduce the public with drama and violence than to actually do what should be the intention of a show about working with dogs.
I agree with the poster who said that we should get together and at least try to make some impact. Something just has to be done...
The worst part of the clip is not the number of serious fights that broke out or even the fact that people without break sticks got right into the mix, it's the fact that it was chosen by the Cesar camp as one to display proudly as an example of how amazing he is...... Does anyone NOT see how wrong this is???
It's out there for everyone to see yet people still find some way to defend this kind of repugnant arrogance...
I just watched another part of an episode (had to turn it off
) where he was teaching an owner how to redirect his intact male boxer when he fixated on an intact bulldog who he lived with and continually fought with.While he did recommend neuter for both dogs, he then proceeded to attempt 'rehab' these intact males who have had over a year of practice fighting....that alone should be enough to prove to people that he has no clue. If this is not clearly setting these owners up with a false sense of security and the dogs for a fatal fight...I don't know what it is..
He, as usual, was instructing the owners to use their feet to 'snap the dog out of intention', though he himself was kicking and yanking, as was the owner. Really smart, add anxiety to an already volitile situation and expect it to work....
I wish all of the Cesar supporters could follow me around for a month just to see how many bite cases that are a result of The Dog Whisperer (not the real dog whisperer mind you
.....Cesar Milan)I hate the world we live in today. It's become more valuable to seduce the public with drama and violence than to actually do what should be the intention of a show about working with dogs.
I agree with the poster who said that we should get together and at least try to make some impact. Something just has to be done...
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Uh huh, and I participated on a dog board where the advice of the +R's in their support of the owner's denial, even when her (in person) clicker trainer was not helping, directly led to a child being bitten in the face.
Locally, a +R trainer (who I recommended to help with SA) instructed the owner to never tell ner dog "NO", ignore the bad, and only reward the good which led to her dog marking in the house and growling at her child.
Spoiled, bratty dogs bite. Dogs trained with +R only methods also bite. Sorry, reality check.
Do I think some people will take what they see on TV and misuse it, despite the warnings? Yep. Do I think some people will misuse a pinch or e-collar? Yep. Do I think some people will breed their dogs irresponsibly? Yep. Do I think pitties are power breed which takes a special person to own? Yep again...
Am I for cesoring what methods we can see on TV, which tools we may use, mandatory S&L laws, and BSL? NO!
The "people are stupid" arguement has long been used to enact laws and censor information. Personally I'm a believer in education and personal resposibility.
The anti-Cesar crusade is nothing but a well-organized witch hunt. Fortunately, I live in America.
opcorn:
ETA: I'm also not for putting dogs down (using lame, unprovable excuses) simply because one's method of choice fails.
Locally, a +R trainer (who I recommended to help with SA) instructed the owner to never tell ner dog "NO", ignore the bad, and only reward the good which led to her dog marking in the house and growling at her child.
Spoiled, bratty dogs bite. Dogs trained with +R only methods also bite. Sorry, reality check.
Do I think some people will take what they see on TV and misuse it, despite the warnings? Yep. Do I think some people will misuse a pinch or e-collar? Yep. Do I think some people will breed their dogs irresponsibly? Yep. Do I think pitties are power breed which takes a special person to own? Yep again...
Am I for cesoring what methods we can see on TV, which tools we may use, mandatory S&L laws, and BSL? NO!
The "people are stupid" arguement has long been used to enact laws and censor information. Personally I'm a believer in education and personal resposibility.
The anti-Cesar crusade is nothing but a well-organized witch hunt. Fortunately, I live in America.
opcorn:ETA: I'm also not for putting dogs down (using lame, unprovable excuses) simply because one's method of choice fails.
You know Angelique, there are crappy trainers everywhere no matter what method they use. We have one here in Calgary who makes anything to do with the mere sight of a clicker look stupid simply because she's young, inexperienced, takes on cases that are beyond her knowledge and is flying by the seat of her pants...learning on the job so to speak. I, and other trainers have cleaned up a number of her messes and while she is now in attendance at many of the seminars and workshops, she continues to use the public to ride her learning curve, sometimes with great results, but often causing real problems.
I'm still not sure how you feel that can possibly justify this man, who is clearly NOT understanding body language or basic learning theory, to have a television show that reaches MILLIONS. Do you even think about the number of bite cases and euthanasia's he is REALLY causing?
I'm not talking the learning theory stuff that dribbles out of a book, but rather real life, try it both ways and see, kind of understanding that he is OBLIGATED to participate in in order to earn the rights that he has taken for granted.
He is clearly writing his own rules based on (and you yourself know this) flawed reasoning, and it's getting worse by the episode.
I'm still not sure how you feel that can possibly justify this man, who is clearly NOT understanding body language or basic learning theory, to have a television show that reaches MILLIONS. Do you even think about the number of bite cases and euthanasia's he is REALLY causing?
I'm not talking the learning theory stuff that dribbles out of a book, but rather real life, try it both ways and see, kind of understanding that he is OBLIGATED to participate in in order to earn the rights that he has taken for granted.
He is clearly writing his own rules based on (and you yourself know this) flawed reasoning, and it's getting worse by the episode.
Wow.... all I can say is WOW. Makes me sick, how horrible....
CM has to be stopped. He does not deserve a TV show - especially since John Q. Public thinks has the general idea that, "well, he's a TV star - he *must* be right!" UGH.
I see his stuff all the time at Petco. I wonder how they'd feel if people boycotted the store because of the CM cr@p they're harboring? (and it hurts to say it, since I actually don't mind Petco.... ugh.)
CM has to be stopped. He does not deserve a TV show - especially since John Q. Public thinks has the general idea that, "well, he's a TV star - he *must* be right!" UGH.
I see his stuff all the time at Petco. I wonder how they'd feel if people boycotted the store because of the CM cr@p they're harboring? (and it hurts to say it, since I actually don't mind Petco.... ugh.)
Uh huh, and I participated on a dog board where the advice of the +R's in their support of the owner's denial, even when her (in person) clicker trainer was not helping, directly led to a child being bitten in the face.
Locally, a +R trainer (who I recommended to help with SA) instructed the owner to never tell ner dog "NO", ignore the bad, and only reward the good which led to her dog marking in the house and growling at her child.
Spoiled, bratty dogs bite. Dogs trained with +R only methods also bite. Sorry, reality check.
Do I think some people will take what they see on TV and misuse it, despite the warnings? Yep. Do I think some people will misuse a pinch or e-collar? Yep. Do I think some people will breed their dogs irresponsibly? Yep. Do I think pitties are power breed which takes a special person to own? Yep again...
Am I for cesoring what methods we can see on TV, which tools we may use, mandatory S&L laws, and BSL? NO!
The "people are stupid" arguement has long been used to enact laws and censor information. Personally I'm a believer in education and personal resposibility.
The anti-Cesar crusade is nothing but a well-organized witch hunt. Fortunately, I live in America.
opcorn:
ETA: I'm also not for putting dogs down (using lame, unprovable excuses) simply because one's method of choice fails.
Locally, a +R trainer (who I recommended to help with SA) instructed the owner to never tell ner dog "NO", ignore the bad, and only reward the good which led to her dog marking in the house and growling at her child.
Spoiled, bratty dogs bite. Dogs trained with +R only methods also bite. Sorry, reality check.
Do I think some people will take what they see on TV and misuse it, despite the warnings? Yep. Do I think some people will misuse a pinch or e-collar? Yep. Do I think some people will breed their dogs irresponsibly? Yep. Do I think pitties are power breed which takes a special person to own? Yep again...
Am I for cesoring what methods we can see on TV, which tools we may use, mandatory S&L laws, and BSL? NO!
The "people are stupid" arguement has long been used to enact laws and censor information. Personally I'm a believer in education and personal resposibility.
The anti-Cesar crusade is nothing but a well-organized witch hunt. Fortunately, I live in America.
opcorn:ETA: I'm also not for putting dogs down (using lame, unprovable excuses) simply because one's method of choice fails.
I am all about removing IDIOTIC (things that are obvious) warning labels off products to "weed out" really dumb people so they don't reproduce. Like the hair dryer sticker showing NOT TO BATH WITH IT
If you need someone to tell you NOT to bath with your plugged in hair dryer........But this issue can and does affect people who are completely innocent. Like children, neighbors who have no control over stupid dog owners who don't make an effort to learn, other pets, and the breeds it affects when sh!t hits the fan and makes news.
I DO think he shouldn't be able to reach the masses with his craziness........I don't think he needs to be "burned at the stake" but he does need to be stopped.