You make me sick.... (Designer Breeders)
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Honestly....I wouldn't have a problem with that. With one exception: I think most people who purchase or adopt a dog go in to it hoping for certain physical characteristics. True, to some it doesn't matter, but things like size/coat type/etc. are very important to a lot of people. Just breeding random dogs together and not having a clue regarding physical characteristics doesn't seem very....appealing to me. If I were breeding dogs purely as pets, I would still want some form of physical standard or "type".
Not to mention that breeding random mixed breed dogs would bring up "hidden" genetics from their background into the mixture. The Husky/Coonhound may be an awesome, off leash reliable, trainable dog, but that doesn't mean ITS parents (or siblings, or cousins, or what have you) were. And breed traits (baying, hunting, independence) don't go away just because the one dog doesn't bay, or hunt, and wouldn't go more than 50' from its owner.
Just like with any breeding program, it isn't as simple as sire + dam = 1/2 sire, 1/2 dam puppies. The lineage plays a role as well. And it would take time and dedication to create a pet-dog-type that remained consistent, just like with any breeding program. If that at all makes sense.
Not to mention that breeding random mixed breed dogs would bring up "hidden" genetics from their background into the mixture. The Husky/Coonhound may be an awesome, off leash reliable, trainable dog, but that doesn't mean ITS parents (or siblings, or cousins, or what have you) were. And breed traits (baying, hunting, independence) don't go away just because the one dog doesn't bay, or hunt, and wouldn't go more than 50' from its owner.
Just like with any breeding program, it isn't as simple as sire + dam = 1/2 sire, 1/2 dam puppies. The lineage plays a role as well. And it would take time and dedication to create a pet-dog-type that remained consistent, just like with any breeding program. If that at all makes sense.
The last couple posts make me think of Blue Cedar sport dogs-- they've got all kinds of mixes that they're breeding to make exceptional sport dogs. (They breed to farking much, imo, but that's another story)
I've always thought people don't get up in arms about Lurchers because John Q Public doesn't know what a Lurcher *is*.
I've always thought people don't get up in arms about Lurchers because John Q Public doesn't know what a Lurcher *is*.
Of course F1 crosses aren't a breed. I haven't seen anyone saying they are? Not in this thread, and not among doodle breeders. Not among owners. They're a crossbreed. This is a pretty well understood concept.
I think you've vastly overestimating how most people get their dogs. F1 doodle crosses are about as predictable as a random Golden or Labrador breeding. I talk to dozens of people a week about their puppies, most even of purebred puppies didn't see the parents and have no idea how big the dog will grow up to be. There's 50 pound and 90 pound Labs as well.
If you put in retriever and poodle, you're not going to get a terrier. You're going to get a large, curly or wavy coated, dog who's outgoing and overly friendly that's recognizable as a doodle.
I don't really care, oodledoodles aren't my type at all. As long as breeders are being responsible for the dogs they create, I really don't care what other people are breeding. But they're obviously providing people with something they find valuable that purebred dogs don't offer.
I think you've vastly overestimating how most people get their dogs. F1 doodle crosses are about as predictable as a random Golden or Labrador breeding. I talk to dozens of people a week about their puppies, most even of purebred puppies didn't see the parents and have no idea how big the dog will grow up to be. There's 50 pound and 90 pound Labs as well.
If you put in retriever and poodle, you're not going to get a terrier. You're going to get a large, curly or wavy coated, dog who's outgoing and overly friendly that's recognizable as a doodle.
I don't really care, oodledoodles aren't my type at all. As long as breeders are being responsible for the dogs they create, I really don't care what other people are breeding. But they're obviously providing people with something they find valuable that purebred dogs don't offer.
Side note: I wish I knew of sport mix breeders that didn't churn out puppies like you would not believe and breed the bitches way too much. I love the idea. I love the borderstaffies I've met to a ridiculous extent. But... 
Actually the whole sport breeding thing kind of gets to me the more I get into sports. Maybe if people were going to more smaller breeders vs the big commercial ones? We have one near us that churns out puppies like I have never seen before. The parents don't seem to do anything. They may have 3 litters at once. $1500 a pop too... But people don't seem as on to them as they do a doodle breeder. I'd rather someone get a doodle from a breeder that breeds 1-2 times a year than those places...
Oh god off topic. I really just don't get why it's ok to breed that way because their dogs can jump fast over pvc pipes but breeding for pets is wrong? I see people arguing all the time that breeding for sports is fine but not pets. It makes no sense to me even as a sports person.
Actually the whole sport breeding thing kind of gets to me the more I get into sports. Maybe if people were going to more smaller breeders vs the big commercial ones? We have one near us that churns out puppies like I have never seen before. The parents don't seem to do anything. They may have 3 litters at once. $1500 a pop too... But people don't seem as on to them as they do a doodle breeder. I'd rather someone get a doodle from a breeder that breeds 1-2 times a year than those places...
Oh god off topic. I really just don't get why it's ok to breed that way because their dogs can jump fast over pvc pipes but breeding for pets is wrong? I see people arguing all the time that breeding for sports is fine but not pets. It makes no sense to me even as a sports person.
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Me, either. I think there's an idea that any dog can be a pet, which doesn't make sense to me either, because at the same time dog people routinely talk about how many breeds AREN'T suitable as "just" family pets. And all three of my dogs could be terrible pets in the wrong circumstances.
I think maybe what people really mean is "Well I wouldn't want that mix and I wouldn't pay that much for it, so why would anyone else?" But as someone else pointed out, obviously they are filling a niche or they wouldn't be out there. And nobody is getting the pitchforks and torches ready for cockapoo breeders, why? Because they've been around forever... we had one when I was a kid.
I think maybe what people really mean is "Well I wouldn't want that mix and I wouldn't pay that much for it, so why would anyone else?" But as someone else pointed out, obviously they are filling a niche or they wouldn't be out there. And nobody is getting the pitchforks and torches ready for cockapoo breeders, why? Because they've been around forever... we had one when I was a kid.
I used to care a lot more than I do now. If you're going to breed, make sure they have good temperaments and good health ,and dog owners, if you're going to buy or adopt, be accountable and responsible for whatever kind of dog you get. That's it.
That said, and I fully admit I am NOT a breeder and don't know a heck of a lot about other dog breeds, but I don't hold GSD "pet" breeders in high regard. Most of them are crap. They have a black and red coat and lack in a lot of areas.
In my experience, most people breeding gsd's for "pets" are skipping a lot of steps and cut a lot of corners. So much so, that other than having a similar coat pattern or color, most don't resemble the working dog I've come to enjoy.
And trust me, half the "working" or "show" breeders aren't doing any better. They create a perception then market the hell out of it. One thing I have noticed working a lot of these dogs is that occasionally a good dog comes from anywhere though most are pretty poor overall. The other thing I've noticed is that people breeding dogs with everything tend to produce the best dogs in terms of health and workability on a consistent basis, even though most of those are missing something.
Once breeders start excusing and using dogs with things missing for breeding, you lose a lot quickly in temperament traits and health. Which then makes me wonder why people seek out certain "breeds" when the dogs aren't anything that breed "should" be? I guess if you love it and care for it and give it a good life, I don't really care much beyond that. But I still find it odd.
That said, and I fully admit I am NOT a breeder and don't know a heck of a lot about other dog breeds, but I don't hold GSD "pet" breeders in high regard. Most of them are crap. They have a black and red coat and lack in a lot of areas.
In my experience, most people breeding gsd's for "pets" are skipping a lot of steps and cut a lot of corners. So much so, that other than having a similar coat pattern or color, most don't resemble the working dog I've come to enjoy.
And trust me, half the "working" or "show" breeders aren't doing any better. They create a perception then market the hell out of it. One thing I have noticed working a lot of these dogs is that occasionally a good dog comes from anywhere though most are pretty poor overall. The other thing I've noticed is that people breeding dogs with everything tend to produce the best dogs in terms of health and workability on a consistent basis, even though most of those are missing something.
Once breeders start excusing and using dogs with things missing for breeding, you lose a lot quickly in temperament traits and health. Which then makes me wonder why people seek out certain "breeds" when the dogs aren't anything that breed "should" be? I guess if you love it and care for it and give it a good life, I don't really care much beyond that. But I still find it odd.
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In and of itself, breeding for pets doesn't bother me much. Especially in the case of designer dogs, where you aren't taking an existing breed and significantly changing it. Rather you are creating and entirely new breed to fill a niche, and I'm fine with that.
But if you breed a working dog, you should be breeding the best working dog possible. If you breed a sports dog, you should be breeding the best. I don't expect any less of a breeder who breeds for companions.
What about a CGC? Or parent dogs who do therapy work? If you a meant to be a companion animal, you should be able to perform the basic tasks the average person wants of a companion. Heath testing is s must as well. If a doodle breeder certifies everything they should be and has all of their dogs doing therapy work of some sort, I would consider them just as reputable as any other breeder.
It seems that even fewer doodle/designer dog breeders are doing this then the average breed, though. That's not to say that some aren't, and that those breeders are not ok.
But if you breed a working dog, you should be breeding the best working dog possible. If you breed a sports dog, you should be breeding the best. I don't expect any less of a breeder who breeds for companions.
What about a CGC? Or parent dogs who do therapy work? If you a meant to be a companion animal, you should be able to perform the basic tasks the average person wants of a companion. Heath testing is s must as well. If a doodle breeder certifies everything they should be and has all of their dogs doing therapy work of some sort, I would consider them just as reputable as any other breeder.
It seems that even fewer doodle/designer dog breeders are doing this then the average breed, though. That's not to say that some aren't, and that those breeders are not ok.
I think another difference between the doodles and poos and lurchers and sport mixes is that typically (at least from what I've seen) the sport mixes and lurchers are a result of 2 breeds with some sort of similar trait that they're working to enhance.
ie. Both/All breeds involved have a high prey drive, or high endurance etc.
Whereas with many of the doodles it seems that instead of enhancing specific traits, they are trying to achieve the best possible scenario out of breeding 2 very different breeds together. (Yes in the case of Poodles and Retrievers they were both originally water retrieving breeds, but beyond that in terms of temperament, drive, coat type, and overall look they seem pretty different IMO).
In terms of cross breeding for pet purposes, I absolutely agree that they should still be held to a similar standard in terms of health testing, temperament testing, and some sort of way to "prove" that they're good companions/pets - beyond "s/he has always been a great pet so we're going to breed based on that."
The general public may not care if their dog is great at hunting/obedience/agility/whatever but I'm sure when it comes to the health and temperamental stability they are at least a little concerned.
ie. Both/All breeds involved have a high prey drive, or high endurance etc.
Whereas with many of the doodles it seems that instead of enhancing specific traits, they are trying to achieve the best possible scenario out of breeding 2 very different breeds together. (Yes in the case of Poodles and Retrievers they were both originally water retrieving breeds, but beyond that in terms of temperament, drive, coat type, and overall look they seem pretty different IMO).
In terms of cross breeding for pet purposes, I absolutely agree that they should still be held to a similar standard in terms of health testing, temperament testing, and some sort of way to "prove" that they're good companions/pets - beyond "s/he has always been a great pet so we're going to breed based on that."
The general public may not care if their dog is great at hunting/obedience/agility/whatever but I'm sure when it comes to the health and temperamental stability they are at least a little concerned.
Well the borderwhippets are sighthound x herder, which is pretty different. The others tend to be herder x terrier (which is my favorite kind of cross to be honest). But a JRT and a BC are pretty different. At least poodles and labs are both sporting breeds? Some of the sport mixes are multi gen mixes too. I don't think they all work out perfectly with the drive of a BC, biddability of a BC, tenacity of a terrier, and size of a terrier either... Just based on ones I've met. Or sighthound x bc, I doubt all get the biddability of the BC and speed of the hound.
Good point, I wasn't really thinking about the sighthound x BC crosses, nor the factors beyond drive, such as biddability or size.
I just meant in terms of the 3 groups - herding, hunting, and terrier - all tend to have pretty substantial prey drives. So by breeding them together you're likely to end up with a pretty drivey dog.
(Side note: I actually had in my original draft of that post that both the Poodles and Retrievers are sporting breeds and that was their common ground, but then I checked the AKC site and apparently Poodles are listed under "non-sporting" now....)
I just meant in terms of the 3 groups - herding, hunting, and terrier - all tend to have pretty substantial prey drives. So by breeding them together you're likely to end up with a pretty drivey dog.
(Side note: I actually had in my original draft of that post that both the Poodles and Retrievers are sporting breeds and that was their common ground, but then I checked the AKC site and apparently Poodles are listed under "non-sporting" now....)
Side note: I wish I knew of sport mix breeders that didn't churn out puppies like you would not believe and breed the bitches way too much. I love the idea. I love the borderstaffies I've met to a ridiculous extent. But...
the couple blue cedar dogs i know are pretty nice dogs but i'd never personally want to support what they're doing. but there are people around who breed sport mixes that i'd absolutely be getting in line for because they aren't producing nine kajillion puppies and all of their dogs are housedogs and family members first and foremost.
I know and work with at least two dozen goldendoodles and at least a dozen labradoodles on a regular basis at work (cage-free daycare and boarding) as well as several standard poodles and an infinite number of labs and goldens. While there are some weird purebred dogs, they are far more similar to each other than the doodles.
There are some dogs we like to call Daycare Superstars. These are the dogs that play all day long with anybody else. They have nice long fuses and tolerate lots of rude behavior from mouthy, pushy, and rough dogs. Most of our Daycare Superstars are labs and goldens, with a few aussies, pits, GSDs, and standard poodles.
The goldendoodles I work with range from 50-100 pounds and are universally unpopular among the staff. Their temperaments range from incredibly gregarious to hiding and shaking in a corner. There are several who prefer to bark nonstop the entire day (and night!) over any other activity, even when given individual attention away from the group. The ones who aren't hiding in a corner or barking nonstop tend to play too rough for most other dogs. Not one of them is a Superstar. All the ones I have asked about have turned out to be F1 crosses, and all of them shed like crazy.
The labradoodles tend to be a little more similar to each other, around 60-80 pounds and less over-the-top crazy than the goldendoodles. None of them hide in corners and shake, but they still all shed. (One of my jobs is to wash and brush dogs, I have had the opportunity to run a Coat King through each of their doodly curls and inevitably come up with a huge wad of undercoat.) Not one of the labradoodles is a Superstar.
There are four puppies from the same litter and different families that come in frequently. They are the product of an oops litter between a Portuguese waterdog and a labradoodle, and they are all Superstars. They are also the only tolerable doodles. We also have a couple of different PWD Superstars. I assume the waterdoodles get all their awesomeness from their PWD parent.
Not every labrador or golden retriever is amazing and wonderful, some of them hide and shake, or bark all day, or get extremely grumpy. However, a large percentage of them are fabulous in the cage-free environment. A smaller percentage of poodles are fab, about half have major issues. Still, there are far fewer poodles that illicit groans on arrival than doodles.
That is my personal experience with doodles. I was more accepting of the entire doodle concept before I got to know them personally.
There are some dogs we like to call Daycare Superstars. These are the dogs that play all day long with anybody else. They have nice long fuses and tolerate lots of rude behavior from mouthy, pushy, and rough dogs. Most of our Daycare Superstars are labs and goldens, with a few aussies, pits, GSDs, and standard poodles.
The goldendoodles I work with range from 50-100 pounds and are universally unpopular among the staff. Their temperaments range from incredibly gregarious to hiding and shaking in a corner. There are several who prefer to bark nonstop the entire day (and night!) over any other activity, even when given individual attention away from the group. The ones who aren't hiding in a corner or barking nonstop tend to play too rough for most other dogs. Not one of them is a Superstar. All the ones I have asked about have turned out to be F1 crosses, and all of them shed like crazy.
The labradoodles tend to be a little more similar to each other, around 60-80 pounds and less over-the-top crazy than the goldendoodles. None of them hide in corners and shake, but they still all shed. (One of my jobs is to wash and brush dogs, I have had the opportunity to run a Coat King through each of their doodly curls and inevitably come up with a huge wad of undercoat.) Not one of the labradoodles is a Superstar.
There are four puppies from the same litter and different families that come in frequently. They are the product of an oops litter between a Portuguese waterdog and a labradoodle, and they are all Superstars. They are also the only tolerable doodles. We also have a couple of different PWD Superstars. I assume the waterdoodles get all their awesomeness from their PWD parent.
Not every labrador or golden retriever is amazing and wonderful, some of them hide and shake, or bark all day, or get extremely grumpy. However, a large percentage of them are fabulous in the cage-free environment. A smaller percentage of poodles are fab, about half have major issues. Still, there are far fewer poodles that illicit groans on arrival than doodles.
That is my personal experience with doodles. I was more accepting of the entire doodle concept before I got to know them personally.
I've found them to be fairy consistent, but no I'm not a huge fan. Actually I have to take that back, I'm not a fan of the "standard" lab/goldendoodles. We actually have several "miniature" doodles I like quite a bit.
I've not found the standard lab/goldendoodles to play much at all, especially goldendoodles. The few labradoodles who do play tend to be too rough. Instead of playing like a nice, polite dog they dive bomb and poke.
The goldendoodles are usually insecure and some bark non-stop all day. So basically the issues I have with these doodles are the exact same issues I often have with labs and goldens. Labradoodles are overly rough like labs can be and goldendoodles are insecure and bark non-stop for absolutely no reason like MANY of our goldens. The only difference is there is also a good chunk of labs and goldens who DO play (politely), but not many doodles that do. We don't have many standard poodles so I can't say what they are usually like in daycare. All of the golden/labradoodles do love to get human attention though and are super sweet so are probably absolutely wonderful at home, they just make annoying daycare dogs. I also can't think of any who made me nervous as far as aggression goes. They don't play and bark like they're super offended if playing dogs bump them but I've never felt one might get into a fight with the exception of one ball obsessed doodle who can guard his ball a bit if another dog tries to take it.
The miniature doodles can be pretty playful though. But I have a hard time telling whose a mini poodle and whose a mini doodle. They don't seem to get the shaggy coat as much as the big guys.
I've not found the standard lab/goldendoodles to play much at all, especially goldendoodles. The few labradoodles who do play tend to be too rough. Instead of playing like a nice, polite dog they dive bomb and poke.
The goldendoodles are usually insecure and some bark non-stop all day. So basically the issues I have with these doodles are the exact same issues I often have with labs and goldens. Labradoodles are overly rough like labs can be and goldendoodles are insecure and bark non-stop for absolutely no reason like MANY of our goldens. The only difference is there is also a good chunk of labs and goldens who DO play (politely), but not many doodles that do. We don't have many standard poodles so I can't say what they are usually like in daycare. All of the golden/labradoodles do love to get human attention though and are super sweet so are probably absolutely wonderful at home, they just make annoying daycare dogs. I also can't think of any who made me nervous as far as aggression goes. They don't play and bark like they're super offended if playing dogs bump them but I've never felt one might get into a fight with the exception of one ball obsessed doodle who can guard his ball a bit if another dog tries to take it.
The miniature doodles can be pretty playful though. But I have a hard time telling whose a mini poodle and whose a mini doodle. They don't seem to get the shaggy coat as much as the big guys.
Good to know there are some good ones out there. Somewhere, haha. I know during Westminster agility I looked up the two borderstaffs because the media was making a big deal out of the mixes and was floored to learn they were both from the same pairing...a pairing that has been done seven times. Same bitch, same sire, seven litters. And they have tons of litters, with four, five or more from any given bitch being fairly normal. I mean, yeesh... I am fairly open minded and willing to co sider other perspectives when it comes to breeding decisions but that is well beyond what I could stomach from an ethical point of view.
I was at one point vaguely on the list for a Border Collie x Rat Terrier (brat). That litter is on the ground right now and I have little doubt they'll live up to the legacy of the previous litter. (I got Hambone instead and don't regret it for a second)
There is also a litter of Borderwhippet x BCs (3/4Collies) that I would potentially sell a kidney for.
There is also a litter of Borderwhippet x BCs (3/4Collies) that I would potentially sell a kidney for.