You make me sick.... (Designer Breeders)

[pinkspore]

Yes! We have four smart ones at daycare, they are all from the same oops litter between a golden doodle and a Portuguese water dog. We have goldendoodles and labradoodles and a wheaten-doodle and a saint berdoodle, or poonard as the staff calls her. Every single one is beloved by their humans, and every single one is incredibly dumb.

On the doodle forums I learned that doodles are very difficult to house train, and that few seem capable of learning polite greeting behavior without a prong or shock collar involved.

 

[BostonBanker]

Huh, all the doodles I've interacted with (golden, lab, cocker) have been very trainable. I expect the behavior/training issues have more to do with the kind of person drawn to the dogs, and less to do with the dogs themselves. They aren't anything I would want to own, but I'm not really a sporting dog person anyway. I also wouldn't want to own a poodle or a retriever (the cockapoos I know might tempt me if I was in to grooming more!).

Honestly, there are enough purebred breeders who appall me that I'm not sure I differentiate between those breeding purebreds and those breeding crosses. If you suck, you suck. Regardless of what you are breeding. If you are doing the job right, you are producing dogs with a place in the world. Regardless of what you are breeding.

 

[Ozfozz]

Huh, all the doodles I've interacted with (golden, lab, cocker) have been very trainable. I expect the behavior/training issues have more to do with the kind of person drawn to the dogs, and less to do with the dogs themselves. They aren't anything I would want to own, but I'm not really a sporting dog person anyway. I also wouldn't want to own a poodle or a retriever (the cockapoos I know might tempt me if I was in to grooming more!).

Honestly, there are enough purebred breeders who appall me that I'm not sure I differentiate between those breeding purebreds and those breeding crosses. If you suck, you suck. Regardless of what you are breeding. If you are doing the job right, you are producing dogs with a place in the world. Regardless of what you are breeding.

^^^ All of this.
I always suspected that the lack of trainability stems more from the typical owner of a doodle opposed to the dogs themselves.
With that mix I see 2 very intelligent, but very high energy breeds. In an inexperienced hand (or an owner that feels since the dog is so "perfect" it will train itself), you're bound to have a wholly unstimulated dog that could come off as "dumb" or untrainable.
I've met some very nicely trained doodles but they are largely owned by people whom put forth the effort.

And yeah, with me it's at the point that as long as you're breeding ethically I don't care what you're breeding.

 

[sassafras]

Huh, all the doodles I've interacted with (golden, lab, cocker) have been very trainable. I expect the behavior/training issues have more to do with the kind of person drawn to the dogs, and less to do with the dogs themselves. They aren't anything I would want to own, but I'm not really a sporting dog person anyway. I also wouldn't want to own a poodle or a retriever (the cockapoos I know might tempt me if I was in to grooming more!).

Honestly, there are enough purebred breeders who appall me that I'm not sure I differentiate between those breeding purebreds and those breeding crosses. If you suck, you suck. Regardless of what you are breeding. If you are doing the job right, you are producing dogs with a place in the world. Regardless of what you are breeding.

Me, too! There seem to be some relatively decent doodle breeders in my area based on the puppies/dogs I see coming through work. I actually really like the majority of them that I meet.

 

[elegy]

Huh, all the doodles I've interacted with (golden, lab, cocker) have been very trainable. I expect the behavior/training issues have more to do with the kind of person drawn to the dogs, and less to do with the dogs themselves. They aren't anything I would want to own, but I'm not really a sporting dog person anyway. I also wouldn't want to own a poodle or a retriever (the cockapoos I know might tempt me if I was in to grooming more!).

Honestly, there are enough purebred breeders who appall me that I'm not sure I differentiate between those breeding purebreds and those breeding crosses. If you suck, you suck. Regardless of what you are breeding. If you are doing the job right, you are producing dogs with a place in the world. Regardless of what you are breeding.

Yup. There are three Labradoodles on my flyball team. All three are perfectly normal, trainable dogs. But they live with someone who expects her dogs to be dogs, not stuffed animals.

I work as a vet tech in puppymill country. Purebred puppies means nothing when it comes to assessing the quality of the breeder.

 

[JacksonsMom]

Far more often than that best of both worlds, I see dogs with the undercoat of a retriever and the curls of a poodle, which trap the shedding undercoat and seem designed to mat. They tend to have the uninhibited crazy of the poodle combined with the insensitivity of the retrievers, and the result is inevitably a dumb dog. Seriously, I've met and worked with a bunch of big doodles and they seem to be right up there with scenthounds in terms of intuition and brains devoted to figuring out what people want. A lot of groomers also regard them as dumb.

Yep, describes my grandma's goldendoodle perfectly honestly lol.

 

[JacksonsMom]

On the doodle forums I learned that doodles are very difficult to house train, and that few seem capable of learning polite greeting behavior without a prong or shock collar involved.

Again, sounds like my grandma's dog. He is THE most impolite dog ever and I've tried over and over again different training methods, nothing ever seems to stick. at ALL. It's very annoying.

 

[JacksonsMom]

Yup. There are three Labradoodles on my flyball team. All three are perfectly normal, trainable dogs. But they live with someone who expects her dogs to be dogs, not stuffed animals.

I work as a vet tech in puppymill country. Purebred puppies means nothing when it comes to assessing the quality of the breeder.

For some reason, the Labradoodles I meet are all pretty awesome. Not so much with the goldendoodles. Odd.

 

[Dekka]

LOL old thread. But my opinion hasn't changed since then

Inconsistency is my favorite answer for why doodles will never be a breed.

This is a big one.

That and they don't breed true. You can't just keep breeding doodle to doodle and get more doodles. They tend to revert more to one type or the other (of original breeds)

To be a breed you must breed true.

 

[pinkspore]

My issue with doodle breeders themselves is that, to me, an ethical breeder needs to be breeding for some goal other than just making more dogs. Since doodles have no conformation standard or purpose other than as pets, everyone breeding them is doing so for the purpose if making dogs to sell. That just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Dekka]

Why can't they have goals? As a JRT breeder I wasn't looking at producing top confo dogs. I mean I wanted dogs with good healthy conformation, but I couldn't care much about winning a class in conformation.

Maybe they have goals. Why not ask them? if you run into one. IMO breeding to a beauty ideal is pretty shallow if that is your main goal.

 

[sassafras]

I've had this discussion enough times to know that people either truly believe this in their hearts or not, but IMO breeding "just" for good family pets IS a goal.

 

[Dekka]

I also wanted to add...

As a breeder you have to breed to the market, to a point. I mean you can breed the most wonderful (by what ever criteria you have) but if no one wants them then your breeding program is likely toast.

As a breeder you have to think not only about what you want to produce but WHY. Who will want this dog? Are the people who want this dog the people I want to have my puppies? Will these dogs have good homes?

If people want doodles then I want there to be ethical doodle breeders. I am glad someone decided there needed to be JRTs!

The world is changing when it comes to pets. Less people need a working dog and more people are looking for a new family member. People are breeding for that new niche. Doodles are totally not my thing, but they are clearly a dog that IS in demand by many people. Clearly they are succeeding as pets in most cases or people wouldn't want them.

 

[elegy]

The world is changing when it comes to pets. Less people need a working dog and more people are looking for a new family member. People are breeding for that new niche. Doodles are totally not my thing, but they are clearly a dog that IS in demand by many people. Clearly they are succeeding as pets in most cases or people wouldn't want them.

I purchased my BCs from a sport breeder. I have no need for them to be able to move sheep, but I did want dogs who would want to play the games I wanted to play and who were conformationally built accordingly. There are plenty of BC breeders out there who think this is the end of the world, who say that sport-bred BCs are a different breed, that they're not even BCs.

Whatever. I bought dogs who suit my lifestyle from somebody who cares what she's doing (health tests, matches dogs based on assorted criteria above and beyond functional reproductive systems) and who stands behind her dogs.

Many many many households are unsuitable and do not desire "working" dogs. Many breeds were never developed to be "working" breeds in the first place. I can count on zero hands the number of poodles I know who actually hunt. Why breed standard poodles at all if they do not "work"? Except because people enjoy them as pets.

 

[sillysally]

I've had this discussion enough times to know that people either truly believe this in their hearts or not, but IMO breeding "just" for good family pets IS a goal.

This. In the vast majority of dog owning households, this is the primary function of a dog. I am more "into" dogs than the average person, but at this point I don't compete with my dogs-they are household companions. With that in mind, being "just" a good pet means "just" about everything in my house.

FWIW, the last doodle I met was a goldendoodle. She was 10 months old and was being shown as a 4-H dog. Someone in her owner's family was showing in the horse and pony program and that dog hung out in the bleachers for several hours at a time, several days in a row, being perfectly pleasent, calm, and mannerly while also being very friendly. I know many obnoxious, stupid, fearful, and aggressive purebred dogs. I've taken several reactive dog classes with one of my dogs and the vast majority of those dogs were purebreds.

 

[pinkspore]

I purchased my BCs from a sport breeder. I have no need for them to be able to move sheep, but I did want dogs who would want to play the games I wanted to play and who were conformationally built accordingly. There are plenty of BC breeders out there who think this is the end of the world, who say that sport-bred BCs are a different breed, that they're not even BCs.

Breeding for sports definitely counts as breeding with a goal. So does breeding for hunting, search and rescue, therapy work, and countless other purposes. It's breeding "just a pet" dogs that concerns me because it feels like aiming low or just plain not having a goal. If just about anything will do, there's not much reason for breeders to take care in selecting their breeding dogs and deciding what will go into the next generation. I do like the concept of the Australian Labradoodle, a smallish breed with a written standard a several generations bred with the intent of standardizing the coat/temperament/size/build. I'm not a fan of f1 crosses produced for the purpose of making more dogs to sell.

I have noticed in my area that most of the doodles I meet are several years old now. Several families have gotten a second, younger dog and none have opted for anocustomerss. I think my favorite doodleseller lie is that they have a "low-maintneance coat"le. A lab, golden, mini poodle, Tibetan terrier, cocker spaniel, or a rescue mutt, but never another doodle.

I guess there might be a few responsible, health testing breeders who are in it for the life of their dogs, but the majority seem to be misleading their potential customers. My favorite doodle-seller lie is the mythical non-shedding dog with the low-maintenance coat. Those shag-beasts take a ton of brushing, or need regular professional grooming, or both. There is nothing low-maintenance about them. I also think the energy level of the dogs is routinely.misrepresented.

 

[Laurelin]

I think doodles are here to stay. The owners I know adore their dogs and they seem well suited to them. I have not many tons of terrible doodles. Overall they seem pretty well like any dog... most seem to be decent to good dogs. Not my kind of dog but most retrievers aren't so doubt it's a doodle issue. More of a 'not my kind of dog' issue.

 

[-bogart-]

How is being just a "pet" a bad thing? Are us "pet" (i.e. people who do nothing with their dogs but love them , no sport or competition of any kind) owner bad people because we want a health tested , temperamentally sound dog? Why is it bad to mix breeds if you want a certain look , and the parents are health tested and temp tested and structurally sound , with the breeders doing everything right , (take back pups and all that ethical breeding jazz)

The masses want small sound dogs who are cute. If ethical breeders dont produce them , the masses will go to the back yard breeder , who produces unstable unsound dog just for a buck. At least good breeders are in it for the dogs , and their buyers , not just the money.

 

[straw]

It's breeding "just a pet" dogs that concerns me because it feels like aiming low or just plain not having a goal. If just about anything will do, there's not much reason for breeders to take care in selecting their breeding dogs and deciding what will go into the next generation.

I dunno, I would argue that. I think stellar pets need certain qualities that don't come by that often - just like a stellar sports dog, SAR dog, working dog, whatever. A number of parameters would come into play regarding choosing dogs for a breeding program.

I have been working at a training facility for a number of years now, and only every now and then does a dog come along that makes us all think "wow, what an awesome dog".

And those right there are the dogs that 'just pet' breeders would be seeking out. Awesome pets.

 

[*blackrose]

I dunno, I would argue that. I think stellar pets need certain qualities that don't come by that often - just like a stellar sports dog, SAR dog, working dog, whatever. A number of parameters would come into play regarding choosing dogs for a breeding program.

I have been working at a training facility for a number of years now, and only every now and then does a dog come along that makes us all think "wow, what an awesome dog".

And those right there are the dogs that 'just pet' breeders would be seeking out. Awesome pets.

Exactly. Breeding for "just a pet", IMO, is just as much of a goal as anything. Because what makes a good pet dog? An insanely sound temperament with the ability to be adaptable. And after seeing *so* many dogs with unstable, sketchy temperaments, the first thing I would get behind in a breeder is one who is breeding dogs of sound mind. What else makes a good pet? Structural health, genetic health, good off switch, trainability, sociability. All good goals.

In fact, I think more dogs should be bred responsibly for pets. When I wanted my puppy, I wanted a health tested, we'll structured, tempermentally stable dog from known lines who had the ability to dabble in sports should I want, but mainly one who would make a fantastic companion. And that is what Abrams' breeder sought for. Yes, she also bred for conformation and also wanted the dogs she produced to make good gun dogs (and those purchased for that goal were good gun dogs), but focusing on a well tempered, healthy dog was her first objective.

And I *always* hear, "Well, if you breed for the ultimate working dog, there will always be puppies in the litter suitable for a pet home." I don't agree with that. I don't agree that a puppy from a litter of stock dogs bred to herd and work cattle for 12 hours a day, or a puppy from a litter bred for bite sports, could ever be most happy in an average pet home. And I also know that when an average pet home is looking for a dog, they don't look at the breeders breeding working dogs. Because they don't *want* a working dog. And, from my own experience, as soon as you tell a breeder "no, I don't plan to do X activity with this dog" they turn you down, even though "working breeders produce pets too".

In short...I wish people would stop thinking that being a pet is a bad thing. A good pet dog is something that is worth breeding towards. Maybe then a "pet dog" wouldn't be synonymous with a poorly structured, poorly tempered, health issue ridden dog.