You make me sick.... (Designer Breeders)

Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
6,405
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Minnesota
#61
It's breeding "just a pet" dogs that concerns me because it feels like aiming low or just plain not having a goal. If just about anything will do, there's not much reason for breeders to take care in selecting their breeding dogs and deciding what will go into the next generation.
I don't believe your underlying assumption that "anything will do" for a pet is correct. A good family pet needs specific qualities that can be selected and bred for just like other tasks/jobs.


ETA: It also rubs me the wrong way that breeding for a pet is being called "aiming low." Most dogs in this country are "just" pets, living with people and families who adore and enjoy them. How is that "low"?
 

Maxy24

Active Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2006
Messages
8,070
Likes
2
Points
38
Age
32
Location
Massachusetts
#62
To an extent I get what pinkspore is saying. I think some of that comes from differences in what one considers a "good pet" temperament. Most BYBs are breeding their dogs because they are "good pets" to them, and all that means for them is that they are not insanely destructive and have not tried to bite anyone they've interacted with. That is sort of aiming low, if most shelter dogs fit the bill then it's not a good breeding goal. But I do think there's a right way to breed "just pets" that actually goes above and beyond what most BYBs do.
 

sillysally

Obey the Toad.
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
5,074
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
A hole in the bottom of the sea.
#63
I don't believe your underlying assumption that "anything will do" for a pet is correct. A good family pet needs specific qualities that can be selected and bred for just like other tasks/jobs.


ETA: It also rubs me the wrong way that breeding for a pet is being called "aiming low." Most dogs in this country are "just" pets, living with people and families who adore and enjoy them. How is that "low"?
Definately this!
 

pinkspore

Bat Ears Only
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
976
Likes
1
Points
18
Location
Central California
#64
I'm only referring to breeding pet quality dogs as aiming low because I feel there needs to be some sort of criteria for Average Joe Breeder to aspire to. "A good breeder produces dogs suitable for service and therapy work" might make a would-be breeder consider exactly what they're trying to accomplish. "A good breeder produces nice pet dogs" is practically an invitation for uneducated people to start breeding dogs. Given that doodles are supposed to be low-allergy dogs, I see no reason why aspiring to breed service and therapy dogs should result in dogs unsuitable for pet homes. Some of the 100-pounders I've met would even make potentially good mobility assistance dogs if they weren't still puppy bouncy in middle age.

I also think that mixing standard poodles with retrievers makes for a more difficult to manage pet temperament, all of the large doodles I've met that were younger than ten have been unfocused and exuberant to the point of being difficult to work with. Most pet homes don't seem adequately prepared to handle a young retriever, I'm not sure making a dog with an even more difficult to handle temperament is doing anyone any favors.
 

BostonBanker

Active Member
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Messages
8,854
Likes
1
Points
36
Location
Vermont
#65
To an extent I get what pinkspore is saying. I think some of that comes from differences in what one considers a "good pet" temperament. Most BYBs are breeding their dogs because they are "good pets" to them, and all that means for them is that they are not insanely destructive and have not tried to bite anyone they've interacted with. That is sort of aiming low, if most shelter dogs fit the bill then it's not a good breeding goal. But I do think there's a right way to breed "just pets" that actually goes above and beyond what most BYBs do.
I get what she is saying, but I'm willing to bet there are more purebreds being bred that way than doodles. So while I think it is a breeding issue, I don't think it is a "breed" issue. If I had a dollar for every crap purebred Golden I've met who should never have been bred, I could put gas in my car for a month. If I had a dollar for every crap doodle I've met who should never have been bred...I could go pick up a sandwich for lunch. I think focusing on bad doodle breeders is...I don't know. Sort of a "can't see the forest for the trees" thing.
 
Joined
Feb 26, 2011
Messages
6,405
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
Minnesota
#66
I'm only referring to breeding pet quality dogs as aiming low because I feel there needs to be some sort of criteria for Average Joe Breeder to aspire to. "A good breeder produces dogs suitable for service and therapy work" might make a would-be breeder consider exactly what they're trying to accomplish. "A good breeder produces nice pet dogs" is practically an invitation for uneducated people to start breeding dogs. Given that doodles are supposed to be low-allergy dogs, I see no reason why aspiring to breed service and therapy dogs should result in dogs unsuitable for pet homes. Some of the 100-pounders I've met would even make potentially good mobility assistance dogs if they weren't still puppy bouncy in middle age.
Anything is practically an invitation for uneducated people to start breeding dogs. There is no shortage of uneducated people breeding dogs for all sorts of purposes. I see no reason why aspiring to breed great pet dogs should be singled out in particular.

I also think that mixing standard poodles with retrievers makes for a more difficult to manage pet temperament, all of the large doodles I've met that were younger than ten have been unfocused and exuberant to the point of being difficult to work with. Most pet homes don't seem adequately prepared to handle a young retriever, I'm not sure making a dog with an even more difficult to handle temperament is doing anyone any favors.
To be clear, I'm not specifically talking about doodles or any other breed or mix in particular, I'm talking about the goal of breeding "just" for pets being perfectly legitimate.
 

Keechak

Aussie Obssessed
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
770
Likes
0
Points
16
Location
Wisconsin
#67
I just have to laugh when people state that you can't have a breed when inconsistency exists in the gene pool.

Inconsistency in coat, bone, color pattern, ear carriage, and overall type in two "well bred" recent examples of the same breed.


 

pinkspore

Bat Ears Only
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
976
Likes
1
Points
18
Location
Central California
#69
I just have to laugh when people state that you can't have a breed when inconsistency exists in the gene pool.

Inconsistency in coat, bone, color pattern, ear carriage, and overall type in two "well bred" recent examples of the same breed.


I'm saying you can't have a breed by crossing two different breeds together because the offspring won't produce more 50/50 crosses.

I'm not saying you can't have a breed with variation, I'm saying you can't really call it a breed when you have no idea what you're going to get from a given cross. I'm willing to bet the dogs shown above are very similar to their parents and siblings. People who want a dog like the one on top should get a puppy from dogs like that. People who want a dog like the one in the second picture should get a puppy from a dog that looks like that. People who get a doodle puppy get a lottery dog that with a 50-pound size range and a huge number of possible coat types and colors, and no way to predict which their dog will have as an adult. It's not the lack of consistency between the dogs, it's the lack of predictability.
 

-bogart-

Member of WHODAT Nation.
Joined
Jun 9, 2008
Messages
3,192
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
South East Louisiana
#70
I'm saying you can't have a breed by crossing two different breeds together because the offspring won't produce more 50/50 crosses.

I'm not saying you can't have a breed with variation, I'm saying you can't really call it a breed when you have no idea what you're going to get from a given cross. I'm willing to bet the dogs shown above are very similar to their parents and siblings. People who want a dog like the one on top should get a puppy from dogs like that. People who want a dog like the one in the second picture should get a puppy from a dog that looks like that. People who get a doodle puppy get a lottery dog that with a 50-pound size range and a huge number of possible coat types and colors, and no way to predict which their dog will have as an adult. It's not the lack of consistency between the dogs, it's the lack of predictability.
No people would get what they want , a doodle. which IS a first gen cross of a Poodle and something else. F1 crosses all seem as relatively consistent.
La/? shaped with wild hair !
 

Keechak

Aussie Obssessed
Joined
Jun 2, 2012
Messages
770
Likes
0
Points
16
Location
Wisconsin
#71
No people would get what they want , a doodle. which IS a first gen cross of a Poodle and something else. F1 crosses all seem as relatively consistent.
La/? shaped with wild hair !
Not all doodles are an F1 cross, Australian Labradoodles are multigenerational.
 

GoingNowhere

Active Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,793
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
USA
#73
Going on a tangent because it grabbed my attention, do you all have ideas for what would be a good way to "prove" a dog bred to be an exceptional pet? I was having this conversation with my sister a while back, who will soon be in the market for a new pet dog. I was talking to her about what to look for and what to avoid in a breeder, and some of her questions got me wondering why I was jumping on the dog-person bandwagon so-to speak. For example, I brought up the idea of "proving a dog" before breeding that dog. I said that a good breeder will do something with their dogs to prove that they are worthy of adding to the gene pool. My sister is interested in labs, so I mentioned field trials, obedience, conformation, or other dog "sports." Her response? "I just want a pet. I don't care if my dog hunts or is exceptionally obedient."

So... do we even have a dog activity out there (with the possible exception of therapy work) that really "proves" a good pet dog?

In a lot of ways, I think that breeding for a good "pet" dog is a much loftier goal to achieve than many other reasons that dogs are bred. After all, being a good pet involves an array of different behaviors and traits, not one single behavior that can be honed and perfected. I'd like to think that the average person's ideal pet dog probably fits roughly into this list:

  • quiet
  • biddable
  • extremely temperamentally stable (i.e. pain tolerant, adaptable, and bombproof)
  • conformationally sound, so as not to run into huge health issues down the line
  • playful, but not hyper
  • ready and able to engage in physical activities, but content to sleep the remainder of the day
  • good with other dogs
  • good with small animals
  • good with children
  • good with strangers
  • does not require intense grooming procedures
  • long-lived
  • watchful when necessary, but not loud or overly alert

I think it would be cool if there was a sort of "three-day eventing" of dog events. Maybe a combination of something like rally-o, CGC and therapy dog testing, and structural soundness conformation.

What do you think? If you could invent an event (or pick an event) that would best "prove" a dog as a good pet, what would it be?

My largest concern would be that if everyone was breeding for good pets following the above criteria within all of their respective breeds, we would begin to lose the qualities that make each breed unique. Eventually, I wonder if we might lose breed type altogether... An extreme example - is a fila still a fila if it has been bred to act like a lab?

In some ways, I don't have a problem with shifting breeding away from a breed's original intent if the original intent is no longer desirable. For example, I don't believe that dog aggression should be a trait that is selected for in bully breeds. In a lot of ways, I would actually like to see it selected against. The issue is that traits don't exist in a bubble... selecting for just one thing can alter all sorts of other traits (as can be seen in the Russian fox experiment). Would selecting against just that one trait end up morphing the breed entirely?

It's all really pretty interesting. But anyway, my apologies for drifting almost entirely away from the doodle-dog discussion.
 
Joined
Nov 17, 2012
Messages
540
Likes
1
Points
18
Location
Canada
#74
I don't have anything to add, just that those are all really interesting points, GoingNowhere.
 

Red.Apricot

Active Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
2,984
Likes
2
Points
38
Location
Southern California
#75
I hope this doesn't come out as rude, because I don't mean it to be, but why get a purebred dog at all if you don't care very much about how well it fits that breed? Like, why is your sister getting a lab if she isn't picky?

Those are real questions; I'm not asking because I know the answer, lol--it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
 

sillysally

Obey the Toad.
Joined
Sep 20, 2008
Messages
5,074
Likes
0
Points
0
Location
A hole in the bottom of the sea.
#76
Honestly, getting into dogs after owning horses I've never gotten the severe aversion many dog people have to crossbreeding. Horses are frequently crossbreed. There are entire registeries, such as the National Show Horse that are very much considered a breed by horse people despite the fact that they pretty much just crosses between saddlebreds and Arabians. Quarter horses can be bred with thoroughbreds and have their offspring registered as a quarter horse. The Arabian Horse Association allows part Arabians to be registered with then as such and there are classes for them at breed shows. And Warmbloods are a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Actually, I think that horseman combining the names of two breeds when referring to the result of a crossbreed predates the "labradoodle." The term "Morab" (Morgan/arabian cross) was coined in the 1920's.
 

Dekka

Just try me..
Joined
May 14, 2007
Messages
19,779
Likes
3
Points
38
Age
48
Location
Ontario
#77
Not all doodles are an F1 cross, Australian Labradoodles are multigenerational.
I had heard this wasn't working out so well. That they started to look more like one of the parent breeds than forming a consistent breed (kinda why lurchers tend to be F1 crosses.

Why don't people get up in arms about lurchers? Is it because that cross has been around for so long its accepted
 

GoingNowhere

Active Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
1,793
Likes
0
Points
36
Location
USA
#78
I hope this doesn't come out as rude, because I don't mean it to be, but why get a purebred dog at all if you don't care very much about how well it fits that breed? Like, why is your sister getting a lab if she isn't picky?

Those are real questions; I'm not asking because I know the answer, lol--it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Ah, because she likes a lot of the breed traits (that coincidentally fit the bill for much of what an "ideal pet dog" might be). She wants that friendly, biddable, happy-go-lucky dog that will go running and biking with her but be happy to be a foot warmer as well. She wants a dog that she can yell "NO!" at when it countersurfs or chews up a shoe and won't shut completely down. She wants a dog that will love her and her husband and ideally any kids that might come their way in the future. She wants a dog that will have a stable temperament, a sound mind, and ideally not die early of some catastrophic disease. She may very well end up with a lab, a lab mix, or a random muttly mutt from a shelter, but she knows I like dogs so our conversation took a turn and we started talking about what to look for in a breeder should she go that route.

And if she should go the breeder route because she wants to know the genetic foundation (tempermentally, healthwise, and otherwise) of her new companion, I won't judge her at all. Should she go the shelter route? I will also support that decision.

To a certain extent, hunting could "prove" physical soundness... but it likely also comes with dogs whose energy and drive is a bit more than her ideal. Obedience could "prove" bidability, but she doesn't particularly care if her dog is obedient to a tee. Therapy work seems to be the best way to "prove a pet" that I can come up with...

I battle with this a lot myself because I have been quite invovled in rescue throughout my life, but I love dogs and understandably have developed loves for certain breeds. I want my future dog to be a pet. I might dabble in some doggie things here and there, but primarily I want a hiking, walking, trick-training companion who will love me and not drive me batty when I don't feel like doing any of the aforementioned things. I want a dog to bring around town, groom, and take care of. One that will entertain me with silly antics. I don't need a purebred by any means. But I love certain breeds and sometimes want the relative assurance of knowing what I'm getting. Just my slightly random thoughts...
 

pinkspore

Bat Ears Only
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
976
Likes
1
Points
18
Location
Central California
#79
I thought it was because people tended to breed lurchers for hunting rather than as pets, but I could be wrong.

I am actually loving this discussion, especially GoingNowhere's thoughts.

Is it ethical/OK/cool to breed any two dogs that are structurally sound and considered good pets by the highest standards? I know quite a few wonderful lab/BC mixes, if I have an amazing pet lab and an amazing pet BC, and both are health tested, should I be able to breed them together and still be considered a good breeder? How about if I breed one of their offspring to my friend's similarly produced coonhound/husky? If I health test all my stock, stand behind my dogs, and only breed the most pain tolerant, bombproof, sweetest, best tempered individuals, do the breeds I cross matter at all?

It would be interesting to see what would happen if one bred dogs purely for pet temperament, health, and soundness rather than appearance. I do think a side effect would be the loss of individual breed traits both at the physical and temperament levels. Honestly, my biggest complaint about mixing up toy breeds is that they tend to end up as nondescript scruffies.
 

pinkspore

Bat Ears Only
Joined
Aug 8, 2014
Messages
976
Likes
1
Points
18
Location
Central California
#80
Actually, all of the field labs I've met (out here on the beach in California where hunting dogs are few and far between) have been extraordinarily calm, level, thoughtful, smaller dogs. It makes sense, I can't imagine getting one of these big derpy oafs to sit quietly in a boat until told otherwise.
 

Members online

Top