Tug of war makes your dogs mean!
- Thread starter dogsarebetter
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You can screw up a dog if you play tug improperly. We've all agreed on that and that is the major part of what Smkie is saying. And since we've all already agreed that the majority of people out there aren't taking agility classes or are trainers themselves, it IS a good idea to toss out a couple of cautionary tales. Just think of all those people giving money to CM-esque trainers or Sit Means Sit...we all think they're horribly misguided people, they think they're doing things just fine. Look at how many people end up teaching their dogs to be rather dangerous resource guarders, because they went about things the wrong way in trying to teach them NOT to guard.
If you know how to properly play tug, it's a great tool for building drive, confidence and teaching/proofing certain commands. If you are the type who will punish the dog for growling while playing, or don't know how teach your dog to give the toy up when asked, then yes, this can create massive problems.
If you know how to properly play tug, it's a great tool for building drive, confidence and teaching/proofing certain commands. If you are the type who will punish the dog for growling while playing, or don't know how teach your dog to give the toy up when asked, then yes, this can create massive problems.
Forget simple tug, there are farm dogs that are raised (from teeny pups) to catch/fight/kill (depending on the size of the opponent) all sorts of animals- feral cats, raccoons, coyotes, cattle, hogs, marmots, and yet those same dogs are flawlessly gentle with little human babies. What is the explaination for this?
My dog was started "on the rag" as soon as he could bite it. He was very familiar with tug when I got him at 8 weeks. He is exceeding gentle with everything that I want him to be gentle with (kittens, my peanut-butter covered fingers) and he is very exuberant and rough when I'm playing with him.
It is common practice to start puppies asap with working line GSD's, mals, presas, etc. And many (most?) of these dogs live with families with cats, little dogs and children. Where they are raised to be "gentle" they are gentle, where they are raised to be "fierce" they are fierce.
I think we all know when training dogs that they oftentimes (depending on the brains of the dog lol) don't connect the dots. Like you teach them something oneplace and they don't apply it everywhere.
I can't see how playing tug of war, at any age, wrecks a dog. If playing tug wrecks it there are much, much deeper problems in the dog's upbringing and/or genetics.
ETA For Chrissakes... when I wrote this there was still "debate" going on lol. you guys type too quickly. well what I wrote is kinda out of place now lol
My dog was started "on the rag" as soon as he could bite it. He was very familiar with tug when I got him at 8 weeks. He is exceeding gentle with everything that I want him to be gentle with (kittens, my peanut-butter covered fingers) and he is very exuberant and rough when I'm playing with him.
It is common practice to start puppies asap with working line GSD's, mals, presas, etc. And many (most?) of these dogs live with families with cats, little dogs and children. Where they are raised to be "gentle" they are gentle, where they are raised to be "fierce" they are fierce.
I think we all know when training dogs that they oftentimes (depending on the brains of the dog lol) don't connect the dots. Like you teach them something oneplace and they don't apply it everywhere.
I can't see how playing tug of war, at any age, wrecks a dog. If playing tug wrecks it there are much, much deeper problems in the dog's upbringing and/or genetics.
ETA For Chrissakes... when I wrote this there was still "debate" going on lol. you guys type too quickly. well what I wrote is kinda out of place now lol
look at this horrible video showing how to ruin a dog by playing tug. Who would do this?
Tug Cruelty
Tug Cruelty
I think this would be a very helpful segment, something from Jean Donaldson's 'Culture Crash'.
All rights belong to Jean Donaldson and JK Publishing. (Atleast, thats what I assume is the publisher as the back on my book has been ripped off.)
Tug-of-War
Dog owners have been admonished for decades by trainers, breeders, and veterinarians to never play tug-of-war with their dogs because it risks increasing aggression or dominance in the dog. I think they've muddled predatory behaviour, which tug actually is, with agonistic (conflict resolution) behaviour, which tug is not. Played with rules, Tug-of-war is a tremendous predatory energy burner and good exercise for both dog and owner. Like structured roughhousing, it serves as a good barometer of the kind of control you have over the dog, most importantly over his jaws. The game doesn't make the dog a preadtor: he already is one. The game is an outlet.
Tug, or any vigorous activity for that matter, played without rules or functioning human brain cells is potentially dangerous. But the baby has been thrown out with the bath water in this case: why deprive dogs and owners of one of the best energy burners and outlets there is? It's good because it is intense, increases dog focus and confidence, and plugs into something very deep inside dogs. The owner becomes the source of a potent reinforcing activity, and there is a payoff in term of lowered incidence of behaviour problems due to understimulation. It's also extremely efficient for the owner in terms of space and time requirements, and it can be used as a convenient reinforcement option in obedience.
The "tug might make him more dominant" argument is extremely lame. The implication is that dogs or wolves ascertain rank by grabbing the ends of a object and tugging to see who "wins." If anything, the best description of tug is that it is cooperative behaviour. It's not you vs. the dog, it's you and the dog vs. the tug-of-war toy. When you're playing tug-of-war with a dog and he "wins," ie., you let go, a tug-addicted dog will try to get you to re-engage in the game rather than leaving and hoarding. You have control of the supreme, ultimate reinforcer here: the ability to make the toy appear to resist, to fell like living prey. The dog learns this.
When dogs do leave and hoard, it's often because the owner has made simple tactical errors. With a dog who tends to run the other way after getting control of the tug object, playing hard to get is an infinitely smarter owner strategy than chasing the dog. Avoid battles with dogs involving speed and agility - you cannot win. Psych-outs are much better. Pretend you couldn't care less and usually the object will be brought back much more quickly. Once the dog learns that playing with the toy with you makes it come to life, you gain this extra leverage.
Drs. Peter Borchelt and Linda Goodloe have conducted the onlyn study ever performed on owners who play tug with their dogs vs. those that do not. The study yielded zero correlation between regular tug of war games and increased aggression. I will definitely come to full alert if anyone comes up with some hard, well-controlled data to the contrary, but so far all there has been is the attitude that, well, it must be bad because the dog gets so revved up. People have such a hard time witnessing real dog behaviour.
Tug-of-war intensity is similar to the gusto seen in dogs engaging in flyball, lure coursing, herding, field and den trials: activities that plug into the predator in the dog. But remember, when dogs are playing tug, they are not playing against you - they are cooperating with you to make a kill. Watch footage of wolves or African Wild DOgs killing large prey animals. A few pack members will have hold of the animal, maybe one on the tail, one on a hamstring and one with a nose hold. They are all pulling like mad (rank unlikely on their minds). This portion of the hunting sequence in social carnivores is indistinguishable from a dog pulling on a tug toy with his owner or another dog.
I would even go so far as to say that this cooperative "killing" is a bonding experience for pack members. It's an intense, pleasurable experience the dog with intimately associate with you. That said, it is absolutely critical that tug games with pet dogs incorporate the following rules.
Tug-of-War Rules
1. Dog "outs" on cue.
2. Dog may not take or retake until invited to do so.
3. Frequent obedience breaks.
4. Zero tolerance of accidents. (teeth on skin or clothing.)
All rights belong to Jean Donaldson and JK Publishing. (Atleast, thats what I assume is the publisher as the back on my book has been ripped off.)
Tug-of-War
Dog owners have been admonished for decades by trainers, breeders, and veterinarians to never play tug-of-war with their dogs because it risks increasing aggression or dominance in the dog. I think they've muddled predatory behaviour, which tug actually is, with agonistic (conflict resolution) behaviour, which tug is not. Played with rules, Tug-of-war is a tremendous predatory energy burner and good exercise for both dog and owner. Like structured roughhousing, it serves as a good barometer of the kind of control you have over the dog, most importantly over his jaws. The game doesn't make the dog a preadtor: he already is one. The game is an outlet.
Tug, or any vigorous activity for that matter, played without rules or functioning human brain cells is potentially dangerous. But the baby has been thrown out with the bath water in this case: why deprive dogs and owners of one of the best energy burners and outlets there is? It's good because it is intense, increases dog focus and confidence, and plugs into something very deep inside dogs. The owner becomes the source of a potent reinforcing activity, and there is a payoff in term of lowered incidence of behaviour problems due to understimulation. It's also extremely efficient for the owner in terms of space and time requirements, and it can be used as a convenient reinforcement option in obedience.
The "tug might make him more dominant" argument is extremely lame. The implication is that dogs or wolves ascertain rank by grabbing the ends of a object and tugging to see who "wins." If anything, the best description of tug is that it is cooperative behaviour. It's not you vs. the dog, it's you and the dog vs. the tug-of-war toy. When you're playing tug-of-war with a dog and he "wins," ie., you let go, a tug-addicted dog will try to get you to re-engage in the game rather than leaving and hoarding. You have control of the supreme, ultimate reinforcer here: the ability to make the toy appear to resist, to fell like living prey. The dog learns this.
When dogs do leave and hoard, it's often because the owner has made simple tactical errors. With a dog who tends to run the other way after getting control of the tug object, playing hard to get is an infinitely smarter owner strategy than chasing the dog. Avoid battles with dogs involving speed and agility - you cannot win. Psych-outs are much better. Pretend you couldn't care less and usually the object will be brought back much more quickly. Once the dog learns that playing with the toy with you makes it come to life, you gain this extra leverage.
Drs. Peter Borchelt and Linda Goodloe have conducted the onlyn study ever performed on owners who play tug with their dogs vs. those that do not. The study yielded zero correlation between regular tug of war games and increased aggression. I will definitely come to full alert if anyone comes up with some hard, well-controlled data to the contrary, but so far all there has been is the attitude that, well, it must be bad because the dog gets so revved up. People have such a hard time witnessing real dog behaviour.
Tug-of-war intensity is similar to the gusto seen in dogs engaging in flyball, lure coursing, herding, field and den trials: activities that plug into the predator in the dog. But remember, when dogs are playing tug, they are not playing against you - they are cooperating with you to make a kill. Watch footage of wolves or African Wild DOgs killing large prey animals. A few pack members will have hold of the animal, maybe one on the tail, one on a hamstring and one with a nose hold. They are all pulling like mad (rank unlikely on their minds). This portion of the hunting sequence in social carnivores is indistinguishable from a dog pulling on a tug toy with his owner or another dog.
I would even go so far as to say that this cooperative "killing" is a bonding experience for pack members. It's an intense, pleasurable experience the dog with intimately associate with you. That said, it is absolutely critical that tug games with pet dogs incorporate the following rules.
Tug-of-War Rules
1. Dog "outs" on cue.
2. Dog may not take or retake until invited to do so.
3. Frequent obedience breaks.
4. Zero tolerance of accidents. (teeth on skin or clothing.)
Ive always played tug with my dogs 
but part of playing the game was knowing "drop it" and that the game was over
Ive seen dogs who LOVE tug but their owners never taught them a command to end the game. you've all probably seen this, they are playing tug, the owner gets the toy out of the dogs mouth and the dog goes nuts trying to get it back, usually mouthing/scratching the person holding it trying to get the toy back
I started playing tug with my foster boxer mix puppies right around 6 weeks, they learned to tug and they learned to "drop it" and got a treat it taught them fun and control and it was the only game they ever wanted to play lol they are now perfectly well behaved adult dogs
but part of playing the game was knowing "drop it" and that the game was over Ive seen dogs who LOVE tug but their owners never taught them a command to end the game. you've all probably seen this, they are playing tug, the owner gets the toy out of the dogs mouth and the dog goes nuts trying to get it back, usually mouthing/scratching the person holding it trying to get the toy back
I started playing tug with my foster boxer mix puppies right around 6 weeks, they learned to tug and they learned to "drop it" and got a treat
it taught them fun and control and it was the only game they ever wanted to play lol they are now perfectly well behaved adult dogs
are you being sarcastic or serious? sorry, i am bad about knowing sometimes.
no, I am actually worried now. if that is "horrible" and no one in there right mind would do that... and i kinda do.
no, I am actually worried now. if that is "horrible" and no one in there right mind would do that... and i kinda do.
I play like that with my dog and more vigorously still. He loves it, and has never had any injury from jumping or catching or being hauled around by what we're playing with.
I'm pretttyy sure that is Gunnar and Dan but I could be totally wrong and he could've been serious in posting that.
are you being sarcastic or serious? sorry, i am bad about knowing sometimes.
no, I am actually worried now. if that is "horrible" and no one in there right mind would do that... and i kinda do.
no, I am actually worried now. if that is "horrible" and no one in there right mind would do that... and i kinda do.
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I love the video Dekka provided, I've saw it many many times before and that is what made me start working with my own dogs differently when playing tug. However I have NEVER heard of anyone saying it makes a dog mean, nor have I heard not to play tug until they are a certain age. Trouble (RIP) my baby girl was rescued by my mom and myself along with my moms Brat and her siblings who went to a rescue. They were 4 weeks old according to the vet that examined them. I did play tug with Trouble and never had problems, I still play tug with Brat and she knows all the rules. Diesel is learning as well. I think tug is a good game when done right, even when they are young.
Scandal is a Tug maniac.... she sounds like she is very serious, and if you did not know better you'd think she was trying to tear someone/thing apart.... She growls and carries on like no tomorrow, the second you say OFF, the very second, she drops it, goes into a down and waits for the game to resume. We are working on her cue to take the tug back, I accidentally cued her to think that putting the toy towards her is her invite to restart play and I am working on a verbal cue. When we are done training, I will be able to rub the toy along her side, wave it in her face and so on, and she will not touch it until invited.... Right now her OFF is rock solid, but her invitation to replay is a tad hit and miss.
I have always played Tug with my dogs, and have tugged with Mindy for years, without the knowledge I have now of how to train it, I have swung Mindy much like the video of the GSD Dan posted. She was never taught proper rules, but knew not to get me by accident and to quit when asked. She is about the farthest thing from mean or nasty I can think of, she has one of the nicest JRT minds I have ever met (Yes, I am biased, but this is one thing I know to be true.. LOL)
I understand that not that many years ago, there was a belief that tugging could cause issues, in fact my Dad (Had working Labs his whole life, not trial dogs, hunting dogs)is still horrified by it... Like many other things though, we have learned that is just not the case, when, like many things it is taught properly.
I have always played Tug with my dogs, and have tugged with Mindy for years, without the knowledge I have now of how to train it, I have swung Mindy much like the video of the GSD Dan posted. She was never taught proper rules, but knew not to get me by accident and to quit when asked. She is about the farthest thing from mean or nasty I can think of, she has one of the nicest JRT minds I have ever met (Yes, I am biased, but this is one thing I know to be true.. LOL)
I understand that not that many years ago, there was a belief that tugging could cause issues, in fact my Dad (Had working Labs his whole life, not trial dogs, hunting dogs)is still horrified by it... Like many other things though, we have learned that is just not the case, when, like many things it is taught properly.
What is Pets for Life?
Anyways, my dogs love to tug. It's great exercise for all of them. And *GASP* they even tug with each other! lol
I've never heard of dog becoming aggressive/not having a soft mouth anymore because of tug and all the trainer's I've known -and respected because of how there dogs are- tug with there dogs.
Anyways, my dogs love to tug. It's great exercise for all of them. And *GASP* they even tug with each other! lol
I've never heard of dog becoming aggressive/not having a soft mouth anymore because of tug and all the trainer's I've known -and respected because of how there dogs are- tug with there dogs.
:hail::hail::hail:
If you can't respect Jean's knowledge of behavior or any of the other fine behaviorists, researchers, the studies and trials, behavioral biologists, veterinary biologists, countless reports from owners who have played tug for years with dogs with no problems, etc, etc, etc... well, opinions are great, but they should drop off where facts begin.