lol this thread needs this clip YouTube - Building Drive by 'being' a Bad Dog Trainer That dog is very well mannered and very under control but is very much a maniac for the tug toy!
Tug of war makes your dogs mean!
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Thanks Adojrts. Back atcha!
I don't think there's a correlation between playing tug and being rough with toys. My dogs all are hard chewers and will destroy toys. Even little, wee Chulita. She won't play tug though. I play, "bitey hand" (something I wouldn't do with most dogs) because she pretends like she's going to bite me, touches my wiggling fingers, then spits them out. She will not bite my fingers. It's a game. She grabs my fingers in her paws when I hold her in my arms like a baby....on her back. She pulls them to her mouth, then spits them out. She wags and gets that super silly expression on her face. Talk about bite inhibition. She won't lay a tooth on my skin. (of course, she doesn't have all her teeth. lol) Anyhow, she knows the game and never escalates to something rougher.
My Lab played tug but had a soft mouth. My Doberman played tug, but not with so much gusto as Toker will. She really gets into it. He would chew stuffies to smiterines in seconds. Jose` plays tug but also chews toys hard.
Chewing and pulling, as in tug are two different actions with two different purposes. Chewing to exercise jaws and teeth on a bone is a different thing than playing a game, pulling something.
I just don't know where the connection is with playing tug or not....and a soft mouth or not chewing up toys. Bite inhibition is just that. If you bite a person or another dog, don't bite too hard. Who said anything about chewing Nyla bones or other toys? No one told my dogs not to chew their bones as hard as they wanted. But you lay a tooth on my skin hard while playing tug or anything else, forget it. You're in the dog house. LOL.
I don't think there's a correlation between playing tug and being rough with toys. My dogs all are hard chewers and will destroy toys. Even little, wee Chulita. She won't play tug though. I play, "bitey hand" (something I wouldn't do with most dogs) because she pretends like she's going to bite me, touches my wiggling fingers, then spits them out. She will not bite my fingers. It's a game. She grabs my fingers in her paws when I hold her in my arms like a baby....on her back. She pulls them to her mouth, then spits them out. She wags and gets that super silly expression on her face. Talk about bite inhibition. She won't lay a tooth on my skin. (of course, she doesn't have all her teeth. lol) Anyhow, she knows the game and never escalates to something rougher.
My Lab played tug but had a soft mouth. My Doberman played tug, but not with so much gusto as Toker will. She really gets into it. He would chew stuffies to smiterines in seconds. Jose` plays tug but also chews toys hard.
Chewing and pulling, as in tug are two different actions with two different purposes. Chewing to exercise jaws and teeth on a bone is a different thing than playing a game, pulling something.
I just don't know where the connection is with playing tug or not....and a soft mouth or not chewing up toys. Bite inhibition is just that. If you bite a person or another dog, don't bite too hard. Who said anything about chewing Nyla bones or other toys? No one told my dogs not to chew their bones as hard as they wanted. But you lay a tooth on my skin hard while playing tug or anything else, forget it. You're in the dog house. LOL.
What's the connection? Like it was said, there are a few of us who had Labs....hunting dogs that had very soft mouths in appropriate situations, such as bringing a duck back or taking a treat from our hands. But chewing on a bone or crushing bones, as in a raw food diet wouldn't work very well if they didn't chew hard. Why would a hard chewer or a puller (as in tug of war game) equal a dog who mangles a bird that he retrieves or bites someone's hand when taking a treat from it? It doesn't. All my dogs are hard, powerful chewers and Toker plays tug with terrific drive and gusto....makes that dog in Dekka's video look like a sloth, knows the rules of the game. But you should see how Toker takes a treat. She is soooooooo careful and gentle...just uses her lips...never lays a tooth on me. And she takes the tug toy from my hand gently, then gets into it.
Soft mouths, are, in part, genetic. Labs and such were selected to have a tendency to having soft mouths. It can be developed too, to a point.
Soft mouths, are, in part, genetic. Labs and such were selected to have a tendency to having soft mouths. It can be developed too, to a point.
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That sounds very much along the lines of the people who tried to tell me not to do protection training and herding with the same dog...They somehow believed that the protection training would make the dog aggressive with the stock or that herding would make him reluctant to do more than circle and stare at the helper 
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I haven't yet seen a dog who doesn't know the difference between a helper and a sheep. Likewise with retrievers - they can most definitely play differentiate between a tug toy and a duck.
.I haven't yet seen a dog who doesn't know the difference between a helper and a sheep. Likewise with retrievers - they can most definitely play differentiate between a tug toy and a duck.
Your old boss may have known a lot about dogs and may have been very good with them, trained them well. But come on Smkie....he was wrong about this one thing. It is possible for someone to be very good in an area and still miss the boat in one or two facets of that area. I know this first hand. I am learning all the time. I think I'm pretty good with dogs, but there is always something I'm not good at or didn't realize. Just admit it and get it over with.
That sounds very much along the lines of the people who tried to tell me not to do protection training and herding with the same dog...They somehow believed that the protection training would make the dog aggressive with the stock or that herding would make him reluctant to do more than circle and stare at the helper .
I haven't yet seen a dog who doesn't know the difference between a helper and a sheep. Likewise with retrievers - they can most definitely play differentiate between a tug toy and a duck.
.I haven't yet seen a dog who doesn't know the difference between a helper and a sheep. Likewise with retrievers - they can most definitely play differentiate between a tug toy and a duck.
Dogs evolved with and along side humans and have learned things. They really do get it. And not only that, but they also have developed differentiating predatory motor patterns. Border collies will eye, stalk, chase but not kill. This is to do with onset and offset of brain development and the fact that dogs are neotenic. We're talking domestic dogs here, not wild wolves. They can differentiate between a game of tug and aggression. The two are not synonomous. Why would a dog that is having fun with his owner want to be aggressive to his owner?
I use to play tug with Virgo, I've seen her kill rabbits and a few rodents and yet, she had an amazingly soft mouth when necessary.
I play tug with Sawyer all the time, he's not hugely into it, but it serves my purpose of teaching him to listen and hold sit/down-stays when riled up. There are rules to follow.
I play tug with Sawyer all the time, he's not hugely into it, but it serves my purpose of teaching him to listen and hold sit/down-stays when riled up. There are rules to follow.
All i know is I saw what my ex did.,which was everything i was taught not to do. Maybe the dog was wired wrong, but the dog was mean, it didn't have a shut off valve. IT also grew to attack a woman. ANd yeah my old boss was good..really good..Nationals two years in a row first and second good.. He insisted on this and i followed his instruction to a t. If I had not seen Richard tug away with Casey...getting him to growl, getting him angry, pulling back hard..not gentle, laughing when he won over a tiny 4 week old puppy, it just made me sick. Maybe it would have happened anyway who knows but I will never take the chance and allow anyone in my house to play with a puppy like that. I had never seen a puppy played with like that before..and later learned the hard way that my ex was mean to the core with everything. He ruined that puppy like he ruined everything else.
Smkie, so you are basing this on ONE dog with ONE man?
So all of us who have no issues makes no difference to you? You wish to deny this game to all those around you? Seems kinda selfish to me. Its like saying I know a dog who died due to jumping off a couch (true) so no dogs should EVER be allowed on any elevated surface ever!
ANd so yes the guy was good back in the day.. but people learn. The people winning worlds tug with dogs... dog training moves forward, just like everything else.
So all of us who have no issues makes no difference to you? You wish to deny this game to all those around you? Seems kinda selfish to me. Its like saying I know a dog who died due to jumping off a couch (true) so no dogs should EVER be allowed on any elevated surface ever!
ANd so yes the guy was good back in the day.. but people learn. The people winning worlds tug with dogs... dog training moves forward, just like everything else.
Smkie, your basing everything on one experience and a bad one at that. I have bolded one of the rules of what not to when playing tug, you never get the dog/puppy frustrated or angry, that is foolish and that ISN'T tugging.
Today, tugging is as common place as teaching a dog how to sit/stay correctly especially in dog sports. Yes there are still some people that don't do it right, but that doesn't mean that tugging is bad or shouldn't be done.
And with training anything, the sooner you start the better as long as it is done right. Some of the best well trained dogs I know tug, dogs that compete at the highest levels and dogs that cross over into other sports and/or jobs.
Give me about two weeks to a month and I'll figure out how to post a video of a puppy learning how to tug. I think you'll then see that there is a huge difference between that and your one bad experience.
Today, tugging is as common place as teaching a dog how to sit/stay correctly especially in dog sports. Yes there are still some people that don't do it right, but that doesn't mean that tugging is bad or shouldn't be done.
And with training anything, the sooner you start the better as long as it is done right. Some of the best well trained dogs I know tug, dogs that compete at the highest levels and dogs that cross over into other sports and/or jobs.
Give me about two weeks to a month and I'll figure out how to post a video of a puppy learning how to tug. I think you'll then see that there is a huge difference between that and your one bad experience.
Play away Dekka what i say has not squat one thing to do with depriving you of what you or anyone else does, never has and never will. I have a right to an opinion since I did grow up basically in charge of the puppies from the time they were born until they left and was instructed by someone I have all the respect for because what he taught me proved true and he was well respected in the field trial circuit. Selfish? I don't think so. IF someone actually thinks I might have some experience and wishes to weigh in my opinion against someone else's then I am sharing what worked well for me. I think anyone can wait a few weeks to start that game vs the risk of damaging teeth, or creating a problem later on. I saw it happen just exactly the way my boss told me it would. IF i hadn't seen that, i might have a question as to the validity of what you are writing. But i did, and it was bad. I will share this story because it is my opinion that you can do other things that don't create risk where it isn't needed.
Like you said, Richard was a jerk...sounds like a sadistic man, mean to the core... who wasn't playing with the puppy. Does it make you sick to see the videos posted here? What about the video I posted with the Doberman and the man playing? Or Dekka's video with the trainer demonstrating the game with her happy dog? Do those make you sick? Are those people looking mean to the core and risking ruining their dogs? I have never ruined a dog or had an aggression issue in any way, shape or form with any of the dogs I've had over the past 50 years. And I've always played tug with any dog who was interested. And I didn't always use the rules....I didn't know before. The dogs were all having a wee of a time. What about all the trainers and owners these days who use tug as a reward and a way to increase drive for those sports? What is the percentage of risk for aggression with these tug-playing dogs? What do you have to back up your claim besides this one, sadistic jerk who was not playing, but tormenting and frustrating a tiny puppy? Is that scientific...or even mildly logical to base a conclusion on one single trial? Of course not. To deny people and their dogs a fun, interactive game that has benefits, such as building drive, letting off steam, getting good exercise, building confidence, creating a prey outlet (necessary) and just plain having fun, based on one bad example doesn't make sense.
Of course you have a right to your opinion and of course, you don't have to feel like you have to play tug. And yes, there are other things you can do with a dog. But at the same time, don't shoot down the game of tug as if it, in and of itself is a bad thing. Because it's not. It gives people the wrong idea and they may miss out on a fun, useful game.
Of course you have a right to your opinion and of course, you don't have to feel like you have to play tug. And yes, there are other things you can do with a dog. But at the same time, don't shoot down the game of tug as if it, in and of itself is a bad thing. Because it's not. It gives people the wrong idea and they may miss out on a fun, useful game.
I said tug was bad between the ages of a few weeks to 2 months. You are referring to older dogs which is not what i said anything about. i said it is not a good idea in a baby. My dogs get great exercise and training with good soft mouths and we don't play tug really at all. They bring it to me..hand it to me and I throw it.A cooperation and just as much fun. THey tug with each other. I certainly do not think they are deprived. Nor do I think i am a bad dog owner because it is not a part of what we do.
Of course you are right to your opinion.. but you said you stop others from doing it. That was what I was addressing.
You are not basing your opinion on anything logical... but its your right to have it. But to push a non logical assumption (anti logical actually.. I am fine with people who think the world is flat, but I would have an issue if they were stopping others from going on pleasure cruises) on others.. that is what I have an issue with.
You are not basing your opinion on anything logical... but its your right to have it. But to push a non logical assumption (anti logical actually.. I am fine with people who think the world is flat, but I would have an issue if they were stopping others from going on pleasure cruises) on others.. that is what I have an issue with.
No one said you were a bad owner. Read my edited last paragraph. Baby dogs can play tug too safely. You don't have to rip their heads or teeth off. I played rough and tumble with my toddlers, but more gently than I did when they were 10. I didn't knock them off their feet when they were two but my daughter and I both took karate when she was 7 and I'd knock her down. LOL!