Pat Miller has a section on tug in her Play With Your Dog book. She places herself firmly in the pro-tug camp. I think it's interesting that she also notes that rules need to be more strictly enforced with dogs who are generally more rowdy and unruly and less strictly enforced with dogs who are of a generally more gentle nature. Common sense, I suppose, but it was nice to see that spelled out by someone like Pat Miller. Common sense not being all that common and all.
Tug of war makes your dogs mean!
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I play tug with my dogs too. Benji loves playing tug with his plushy toys. Sometimes I drag him around the floor. Sometimes we play bitey hands, where I let him mouth my hands in fun. He had no bite inhibition whatsoever when we first got him, but he's really gentle now.
Daisy won't play tug with plushy toys (never would), she barely grips them, and then lets go when I pull. She will play tug outside with the Frisbee though. Sometimes I lift her up in the air, and then she releases, and I throw it.
If it means anything, Daisy, the one who won't play tug with plushies, is the one who is underconfident and fear aggressive. Benji is much more confident, and has a much better temperament.
Daisy won't play tug with plushy toys (never would), she barely grips them, and then lets go when I pull. She will play tug outside with the Frisbee though. Sometimes I lift her up in the air, and then she releases, and I throw it.
If it means anything, Daisy, the one who won't play tug with plushies, is the one who is underconfident and fear aggressive. Benji is much more confident, and has a much better temperament.
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Well, I havn't read through all the posts, so this may be repeated, but dogs play tug o' war with each other all the time, so I think it is a natural health play. I've never seen any mean because of it. And my relatives think Dobermans are just absent minded killers who will soon turn on us also. We can't make them believe otherwise so sometimes you just have to let them go and believe what they want to believe.
Personally, I LOVE tugging with my boys... very little gets them more excited and playful. And in all of the games of tug they play together, they have not once shown an inkling of aggression. I have taught them that the game ends when/if they are getting too growly or mouthy, it reinforces a rock-solid "release", and they have taught each other awesome bite inhibition with tugging games as well. They can play tug together with a toy that is literally just big enough for part of it to fit in each of their mouths with no problems.
The first time they played together was tug of war.
The first time they played together was tug of war.
Personally, I LOVE tugging with my boys... very little gets them more excited and playful. And in all of the games of tug they play together, they have not once shown an inkling of aggression. I have taught them that the game ends when/if they are getting too growly or mouthy, it reinforces a rock-solid "release", and they have taught each other awesome bite inhibition with tugging games as well. They can play tug together with a toy that is literally just big enough for part of it to fit in each of their mouths with no problems.
The first time they played together was tug of war.
The first time they played together was tug of war.
Adorable picture. Though, I can just see the one turning aggrsesive on you. I mean, this is serious business. :rofl1:
I have played Tug of war with Sal (I used to with Athena) for almost 9 years and he hasn't become "Mean" yet. I'll keep researching this theory and I'll get back to you................
Seriously, I have played tug with every dog I have ever had. I had a Rottie and I played "Bite my arm with the sleeve" and he completely understood it was a game. Dogs are way smarter than we give them credit. Moose (The Rottie) always knew the sleeve was game time and never ever took it for anything else.
Seriously, I have played tug with every dog I have ever had. I had a Rottie and I played "Bite my arm with the sleeve" and he completely understood it was a game. Dogs are way smarter than we give them credit. Moose (The Rottie) always knew the sleeve was game time and never ever took it for anything else.
A lot of people said the same thing about raw.
THIS! My dog is apparently becoming slowly bloodthirsty because I feed her raw meat! She's been on the diet for almost 5 years now, so I do mean SLOWLY... but she's a basset hound and she does everything slowly!
Don't let her fool you - quite soon she will turn on me, experts have assured me
Also, she refuses to play tug. She is already too mean?
HI
I'm new here and this is a very interesting thread, I read it all! I had never heard of tug being a bad thing.
i have a toy poo and a standard puppy who is now 8 months old. When the puppy first came the game of tug was fairly even between them . i have cute pics but cannot, for my life figure out how to post them here..
Anyway, now that the puppy is 18 times bigger than her sister they have modified tug to suit them selves. The puppy is fully aware she could "win" every time but realized that's not really fun, so, she only tugs a little , if I'm "in the game" too, they both accept that it's my job to be on the little one's side, so puppy can tug harder. It's very fun for all of us. I love that my puppy is so smart that she knows to be considerate.
I should have just used their names, Natalie, the puppy and Flamingo (Mingo) the toy.
I'm new here and this is a very interesting thread, I read it all! I had never heard of tug being a bad thing.
i have a toy poo and a standard puppy who is now 8 months old. When the puppy first came the game of tug was fairly even between them . i have cute pics but cannot, for my life figure out how to post them here..
Anyway, now that the puppy is 18 times bigger than her sister they have modified tug to suit them selves. The puppy is fully aware she could "win" every time but realized that's not really fun, so, she only tugs a little , if I'm "in the game" too, they both accept that it's my job to be on the little one's side, so puppy can tug harder. It's very fun for all of us. I love that my puppy is so smart that she knows to be considerate.
I should have just used their names, Natalie, the puppy and Flamingo (Mingo) the toy.
THIS! My dog is apparently becoming slowly bloodthirsty because I feed her raw meat! She's been on the diet for almost 5 years now, so I do mean SLOWLY... but she's a basset hound and she does everything slowly!
Don't let her fool you - quite soon she will turn on me, experts have assured me
Also, she refuses to play tug. She is already too mean?
Don't let her fool you - quite soon she will turn on me, experts have assured me
Also, she refuses to play tug. She is already too mean?
HI
I'm new here and this is a very interesting thread, I read it all! I had never heard of tug being a bad thing.
i have a toy poo and a standard puppy who is now 8 months old. When the puppy first came the game of tug was fairly even between them . i have cute pics but cannot, for my life figure out how to post them here..
Anyway, now that the puppy is 18 times bigger than her sister they have modified tug to suit them selves. The puppy is fully aware she could "win" every time but realized that's not really fun, so, she only tugs a little , if I'm "in the game" too, they both accept that it's my job to be on the little one's side, so puppy can tug harder. It's very fun for all of us. I love that my puppy is so smart that she knows to be considerate.
I should have just used their names, Natalie, the puppy and Flamingo (Mingo) the toy.
I'm new here and this is a very interesting thread, I read it all! I had never heard of tug being a bad thing.
i have a toy poo and a standard puppy who is now 8 months old. When the puppy first came the game of tug was fairly even between them . i have cute pics but cannot, for my life figure out how to post them here..
Anyway, now that the puppy is 18 times bigger than her sister they have modified tug to suit them selves. The puppy is fully aware she could "win" every time but realized that's not really fun, so, she only tugs a little , if I'm "in the game" too, they both accept that it's my job to be on the little one's side, so puppy can tug harder. It's very fun for all of us. I love that my puppy is so smart that she knows to be considerate.
I should have just used their names, Natalie, the puppy and Flamingo (Mingo) the toy.
http://www.chazhound.com/forums/t77477/
reply back from the temperment tester for Pets for Life..didn't answer my question as to very young puppies but I thought i would share the answer anyway.
Hi ~
There is always disagreement about whether or not to play tug of war with dogs.
I have gone to many seminars and training sessions and alot of trainers use tug of war to reward dogs in training and/or for tasks requiring high-drive behavior. The game is carefully structured. The dog learns to play only when the handler initiates the game.
The dog must be taught to release the tug object immediately when told. Training for control is a must. In this setting I have not heard of any aggression or negative behavior in these dogs associated with tug of war.
As a family dog - tug of war can present problems because it becomes a wild game and someone can be hurt or hurt the dog.
Children can get too excited with this game and it can get our of control. The dog can miss the tug toy and get a hand or clothing.
It can become a dominance confrontation. Puppies will challenge your authority. Proper training is a must.
Hi ~
There is always disagreement about whether or not to play tug of war with dogs.
I have gone to many seminars and training sessions and alot of trainers use tug of war to reward dogs in training and/or for tasks requiring high-drive behavior. The game is carefully structured. The dog learns to play only when the handler initiates the game.
The dog must be taught to release the tug object immediately when told. Training for control is a must. In this setting I have not heard of any aggression or negative behavior in these dogs associated with tug of war.
As a family dog - tug of war can present problems because it becomes a wild game and someone can be hurt or hurt the dog.
Children can get too excited with this game and it can get our of control. The dog can miss the tug toy and get a hand or clothing.
It can become a dominance confrontation. Puppies will challenge your authority. Proper training is a must.
funny,,I find them the source I credit the most..a therapy org that has been successful for over 25 years in Kansas City and is now due to it's long standing of excellence being invited into Kansas City schools to work with children about recognizing dog expression and proper ways to engage with dogs through a program Leash Pals. I figured they would be the best to send my question to about this game.
I worked for a man that held a high standing in good hunting dogs for over 60 years. I take what he taught me seriously because I have experienced his way of working with dogs and found it highly successful. Not the end of all, i have learned things about t-touch and calming pressure points I would love to be able to tell him about but he is dead now 10 years. He always said you could learn something profound from a beginner as well as the pros. He told me to always keep my eyes and mind open. Which I try to do.
My point of even posting it was to share the question I sent them. I thought their letter pretty much expressed what several members had said. THat tug is used as a reward in many aspects, that training is utmost in using the game. THat it could also be badly abused. I didnt' however find the answer to doing this with puppies in the early weeks. At no point in the letter did i see puppies out to take over the house. (how rude) but rather that it is a game that can be abused by family members that are not as aware as they should be..especially children. It can be abused..and the results can be an issue. THat is what i was trying to say. In no way would anyone say HEY TUG IS GREAT without adding...WITHIN BOUNDRIES. I wouldn't play chase or keepaway with a young dog either. Victor and I do play chase..in fact lots of members at the guild participate. IT is one of Victor's favorite games. But I certainly wouldnt' have played this game with him as a puppy. That would have been tragic in the results.
I worked for a man that held a high standing in good hunting dogs for over 60 years. I take what he taught me seriously because I have experienced his way of working with dogs and found it highly successful. Not the end of all, i have learned things about t-touch and calming pressure points I would love to be able to tell him about but he is dead now 10 years. He always said you could learn something profound from a beginner as well as the pros. He told me to always keep my eyes and mind open. Which I try to do.
My point of even posting it was to share the question I sent them. I thought their letter pretty much expressed what several members had said. THat tug is used as a reward in many aspects, that training is utmost in using the game. THat it could also be badly abused. I didnt' however find the answer to doing this with puppies in the early weeks. At no point in the letter did i see puppies out to take over the house. (how rude) but rather that it is a game that can be abused by family members that are not as aware as they should be..especially children. It can be abused..and the results can be an issue. THat is what i was trying to say. In no way would anyone say HEY TUG IS GREAT without adding...WITHIN BOUNDRIES. I wouldn't play chase or keepaway with a young dog either. Victor and I do play chase..in fact lots of members at the guild participate. IT is one of Victor's favorite games. But I certainly wouldnt' have played this game with him as a puppy. That would have been tragic in the results.
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Yes but a why is a therapy dog a good resource for dog behaviour. That is like saying I should ask my doctor for educational advice. Yes they might know some stuff, but wouldn't going to an educational proffessional be better?
Yes they said it was a reward. But they missed boat when they said it can cause dominance problems...
Yes they said it was a reward. But they missed boat when they said it can cause dominance problems...
Because you can't be a good therapy dog if you have issues.
THat's your opinion Dekka. I disagree.
THey said it can issues if it is abused. Are you honestly saying that is not true? I saw it happen. YEs it can.
PFL is connected with some of the most amazing organizations from training on out. IT has been a grand wealth of information for me and I am more than grateful to participate. Learned a lot from them on top of my handling experiences. I trust them more than just about any dog affiliated org or business I have come in contact with. THe standards are high but reaching for them as a goal with Victor was the best thing I could have ever done even if we never went for a visit. WHen I have a question, i go to the people i trust the most.
THat's your opinion Dekka. I disagree.
THey said it can issues if it is abused. Are you honestly saying that is not true? I saw it happen. YEs it can.
PFL is connected with some of the most amazing organizations from training on out. IT has been a grand wealth of information for me and I am more than grateful to participate. Learned a lot from them on top of my handling experiences. I trust them more than just about any dog affiliated org or business I have come in contact with. THe standards are high but reaching for them as a goal with Victor was the best thing I could have ever done even if we never went for a visit. WHen I have a question, i go to the people i trust the most.
lol one of the most dog aggressive dogs (a lab btw) i train with is an excellent therapy dog. he just got some kind of award or public recognition or something for it. so yes, you certainly can have a dog with issues be a therapy dog.
i still don't understand the insistence that tug causes dominance problems. it's a cooperative game!
i still don't understand the insistence that tug causes dominance problems. it's a cooperative game!
THat would not be allowed in ours. I don't know how it was allowed in theirs. WE have to test in a room with many dogs in it, some standing in the middle of hallways, some barking. Your dog is not to even lean over and sniff another dog when passing. WHen I went to Special Olympics there were 4 dogs there beside us, all therapy dogs. How would a therapy dog be allowed in such a situation if he was dog aggressive? I have tested in a room with cats and rabbits too.
We have the party coming up..I love the party they throw for the dogs that represent PFL. It is pretty amazing. A huge room filled with food and people and dogs of all sizes. There are games and contests that include treats...dog aggression is just not allowed. I don't know how a dog aggressive dog would ever pass the test.
We have the party coming up..I love the party they throw for the dogs that represent PFL. It is pretty amazing. A huge room filled with food and people and dogs of all sizes. There are games and contests that include treats...dog aggression is just not allowed. I don't know how a dog aggressive dog would ever pass the test.
I know lots of family dogs that play tug with very few rules, if any, who have no problems. Rules are good and in general, very important. But not necessarily. It depends on the personality of the dog, the relationship with the people he's playing with and a lot more. Toker didn't always know the rules and she played with my adult son, her real owner. There were never any accidental bites or dominance displays. It was all happy, silly and fun for her, no matter how wound up she got. Do I recommend playing tug without rules? Hell no. Structure is infinently better. But I have, in the past with dogs before I knew any better and I never had any problems with those particular dogs.
I do agree that children probably shouldn't play this with dogs, at least, small children or unsupervised children. Yes, accidental nips, claws etc can happen.
As far as dogs associating this game with some kind of social rank? (dominance) Sorry....don't buy that one at all. This is not something in a dog's repertoire of social dominance. It is not a function used between them or between them and us, as a dominance challenge or to establish rank. It is a cooperative game. Didn't you read Jean Donaldson's example of other canids, when they take down game? They all get around the large animal and pull. One pulls from one side or angle, one pulls from another, ripping meat off. They are not fighting over the large animal. They're sharing and manuvering in a way that allows them to rip off a hunk of meat, which is no easy feat. That meat is tough and without resistance, it would difficult to pull off a hunk. It's a cooperative game when they play tug of war.
This is the opinion of virtually all behaviorists who I've read....veterinary behaviorists, behavioral biologists, ethologists etc... people with advanced degrees in animal behavior. I don't know who this group is you mention either. What is their education or credentials in animal behavior?
As you have read here, 99.999999% of dog owners have played tug of war with all their dogs and have had NO problems. It is extremely rare to have the kinds of problems you're talking about. I'd venture to say that it is hundreds of times more likely to have aggression problems caused by something else.
I do agree that children probably shouldn't play this with dogs, at least, small children or unsupervised children. Yes, accidental nips, claws etc can happen.
As far as dogs associating this game with some kind of social rank? (dominance) Sorry....don't buy that one at all. This is not something in a dog's repertoire of social dominance. It is not a function used between them or between them and us, as a dominance challenge or to establish rank. It is a cooperative game. Didn't you read Jean Donaldson's example of other canids, when they take down game? They all get around the large animal and pull. One pulls from one side or angle, one pulls from another, ripping meat off. They are not fighting over the large animal. They're sharing and manuvering in a way that allows them to rip off a hunk of meat, which is no easy feat. That meat is tough and without resistance, it would difficult to pull off a hunk. It's a cooperative game when they play tug of war.
This is the opinion of virtually all behaviorists who I've read....veterinary behaviorists, behavioral biologists, ethologists etc... people with advanced degrees in animal behavior. I don't know who this group is you mention either. What is their education or credentials in animal behavior?
As you have read here, 99.999999% of dog owners have played tug of war with all their dogs and have had NO problems. It is extremely rare to have the kinds of problems you're talking about. I'd venture to say that it is hundreds of times more likely to have aggression problems caused by something else.