Those **** choke chains

[bridey_01]

I'd just like to know if anyone still practices the old method, and wether or not they can explain to me how this is possibly better than the newer positive one.
I recently had a man quit my class, despite veiwing a very impressive CDX dog trained using positive methods. When asked why, he said that he would never attend a class that did not use choke chains/pinch collars. I've had quite a few heated discussions about this with the very ignorant public which usually ended in utter surprise and relief eg "I don't have to hurt him to make him do what i want?" Most people are good once they are told, but some people just can't handle not having something to yank!

 

[oriondw]

Im sure alot of people will agree with you praising you, etc, etc.

In reality though people seem to have no idea about what they are talking about.

Properly used Prongs/Choke chains do not hurt or injure the dog. Have you ever tried one on your self before speaking of pain? Im sure you didnt. I do agree that that guy was a bit over reactive, there are various methods of training that work.

Unless ofcourse you told him specifically against the use of chains because they hurt the animal, in that case I would walk out as well simply because of stupidity of the trainer.

And before you ask, no I dont use them.

 

[mrose_s]

yeah, they are dumb. and i will admit i have used them a couple of times and i DO regret it.
I was reading a book on dogs the other day that was obvisouly out of date. It actually said that if your dog misbehaves... TO HIT THEM WITH A NEWSPAPER or what not. it had a drawing of a cowering spaniel pup under someones hand !! makes me mad

 

[mrose_s]

Im sure alot of people will agree with you praising you, etc, etc.

In reality though people seem to have no idea about what they are talking about.

Properly used Prongs/Choke chains do not hurt or injure the dog. Have you ever tried one on your self before speaking of pain? Im sure you didnt. I do agree that that guy was a bit over reactive, there are various methods of training that work.

.

The main reason people use choke chains is because their dog pulls, this would cause pain and eventually the dog would stop, but it is so much easier if you just stop.

Not meanng to pick a fight but howcome under your avator it says "wolf choker" just wondering

 

[bridey_01]

The choke chains and prong collars when used properly do not actually cause pain, they cause discomfit choke trainers will tell us. The dogs do not like them. They are a negative stimulus and are the complete opposite of motivation. But choke chains are very rarely used "properly" and there is immense proof of actual skeletal damage over long periods of use. I would like to know the difference between discomfit and pain. Maybe discomfit is a milder pain. In any case the use of either collar is simply unecessary, thank God for all the more insightful trainers out there that are banning such collars from their grounds.

 

[bridey_01]

I have been schooled on how to properly fit and use a choke chain and prong collar, we call these sessions "back in the dark days". When i talked about pain i reffered to many other older training techniques, such as the retrieve ear pinch and the alpha roll.
Our club personally went through an enourmous amount of research on these older techniques, also regretfully having used them many years ago. So many of my mentors have told me stories of the sudden change that overcame the dogs without the yanking. Dogs that had drooped and cringed around the heel now trotted with happy smiles and wagging tails, their eyes on their handlers faces. Absolutely no force is used, no pulling up on chains for the sit, no pulling down for the drop. The difference has converted hundreds of strict choker students. Previous problem dogs suddenly transformed into perfect students. Besides, who in their right mind would want to pressure and force their dog into anything? Why not do it all with a smile and a treat?

 

[ab_goddess]

Hey...just getting started here but thought I would drop my two cents in. At the end of the day it is really a matter of the INDIVIDUAL dog whether or not a choke or pinch collar is going to work. Not breed, not age, not even ability level. I have seen some seriously big dogs learn MUCH faster on just a flat collar and some little yappers who certainly need a bit more correction! Used properly they do NOT hurt the dog but give some stubborn poochies the reminder of who exactly is in charge! So yes I use them if I think the dog may need them...and no i NEVER just automatically use one an ANY new dog.

 

[Purr]

Personally, I don't think you should have to wrap a chain noose around your dog's neck to make it behave. I will never use a choke chain or a pronged collar.

 

[Renee750il]

Mine are sooooo much better with just a regular shoulder-chest harness - nothing around the neck, and trust me, a choke or pinch collar wouldn't phase these dogs in the least. Now with a sled-type dog, a harness like that may well encourage pulling, as that's what they were bred to do in harness, so it is a matter of the individual dog. I've never really seen any dramatic change in a dog that wanted to pull on leash with a choke chain or prong. You've just got to communicate to the dog that walking with at least a semblance of manners makes you very happy. Making you happy is what your dog wants above all else, after all.

 

[casablanca1]

When i talked about pain i reffered to many other older training techniques, such as the retrieve ear pinch and the alpha roll.

I thought the alpha thing was fairly recent, like 1980's or later. It certainly persisted in training books up through the 1990's, when I tried it on my husky/terrier mix whose sense of decency prevented her from simply killing me for the insult. I got all four paws in the stomach, though.

Besides, who in their right mind would want to pressure and force their dog into anything? Why not do it all with a smile and a treat?

I can think of a few reasons - dogs whose hearts sing to the fight or the chase much more than to the treat, and who can't be bribed to quit running after cars or biting other dogs, for one. I use treats for my current dog, who sometimes has the attention span of a gnat, but with my last dog it was pointless and detrimental. She had a tough terrier heart and treats were a distraction. She was intent on figuring out what we meant together, and who I was. Throwing food into that very serious conversation would be like kitchykooing a surgeon in the OR.

 

[Renee750il]

She was intent on figuring out what we meant together, and who I was. Throwing food into that very serious conversation would be like kitchykooing a surgeon in the OR.

I like that description! That's probably the same reason our nose-to-snout conversations have always worked so well with my dogs - they have all been Terriers or very focused herding breeds; dogs who are very centered on communicating.

 

[Doberluv]

It's really a moot point whether or not the choke/prong collars cause pain. The fact is, that mammals learn better by use of a motivator and reward than they do to avoid punishment and any degree of unpleasantness is punishment. It is NOT reward to have a jerk on a collar, regardless of whether it hurts or not. With the use of motivation and reward, they are happier and more eager. Their drive is better and willingness to work is multiplied. Their reliability is better and longer lasting. It's people who think they need to dominate their dogs who insist on staying with the "easy" way out and not learning how to train using positive methods. Somehow, they must need this for their ego, rather than considering working with their dogs as a team and allowing their dogs to use their own heads a little bit and make choices. If you look at your dog as a team player and participant, the relationship is so much better than if you look at yourself as a dominating, forceful teacher. It is the health of the relationship which is your most valuable and important tool of all. Dogs are so capable of so many things....search and rescue, therapy, helping disabled, tracking. Does anyone think that a dog who does these things doesn't think for himself and make choices? Domination and a lot of punishment based training disables a dog from using his own head and making judgements....IMO.

 

[Renee750il]

If you think about it, when you jerk your dog about to tell it what YOU want, it is logical in a dog's mind that it jerk you when it wants to tell you what it wants . . . you're just exacerbating the problem.

 

[casablanca1]

It's really a moot point whether or not the choke/prong collars cause pain. The fact is, that mammals learn better by use of a motivator and reward than they do to avoid punishment and any degree of unpleasantness is punishment.

Well, yes, but there is a place for punishment.

It's people who think they need to dominate their dogs who insist on staying with the "easy" way out and not learning how to train using positive methods. Somehow, they must need this for their ego, rather than considering working with their dogs as a team and allowing their dogs to use their own heads a little bit and make choices.

The person using the 'easy way out' is not always the person using a choke chain. Today, many people indulge their discomfort with disciplining their dogs, even when the dog is behaving in a way dangerous to himself or others.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

I have a choke collar and at times I'll use it, but I really don't need it, I can handle my dogs on their regular nylon collars just fine.

 

[GSDFan05]

I'm all for positive training, but I do know there are 'right' and 'wrong' ways to use a choke collar. I HATE seeing someone walking down the street with their dog strangling itself as it strains against the choke collar, it's horrible, the collars (if you choose to use them) are meant to be a tool to deliver a swift and momentary correction, not to provide a way for the dog to asphixiate itself on a simple walk. I don't use a choke collar period, but it irks me that some people choose them without educating themselves on how to use it at all.

 

[oriondw]

Not meanng to pick a fight but howcome under your avator it says "wolf choker" just wondering

Caucasian Ovcharka = Volkodav = Wolf Choker

 

[Doberluv]

Today, many people indulge their discomfort with disciplining their dogs, even when the dog is behaving in a way dangerous to himself or others.

RIGHT ON!!!! Exactly. People don't discipline their dogs. Then there are all kinds of problems. Remember....discipline means to teach. It does not mean to punish. Dogs can be exceedingly well trained using motivation and reward based training. It's done all the time, in all kinds of situations and with all kinds of dogs...in fact, all mammals respond better to positive training. It's instinct and nature to strive for reward of food. It's survival. It's also nature and instinct to avoid or fear pain...(self preservation) I just would rather my dogs learn and at the same time be happy, trusing and not worried about getting their necks yanked or jerked or any unpleasantness. I like to see my dog going through his obedience or other training with his drive and exuberance still at it's peak and his willingness to keep on working for a long time because he's having fun and it's not an arduous chore to him. But that's personal preference.

 

[bubbatd]

A small in put ...it's better to use a chain collar ( I don't like to call them choke ) if properly trained ,than having a dog pulling and choking with a regular collar. Just remember....never keep them on your dogs after walks or training.!

 

[Renee750il]

I think that's the secret, Grammy - do your research and learn to do things correctly!