Those **** choke chains

[Doberluv]

If a behaviour is ignored it will only escalate...

ONLY if there is a payoff or reward for that behavior. Just exclusively ignoring does not guarantee that there is no payoff. The dog may be self rewarding or the activity may, in and of itself be a payoff. If you recognize and remove that payoff or the ability to engage in a certain behavior by means of distracting, giving an alternate or incomatable behavior, removing the item of the dog's interest (ie: food left on the counter for the dog to take) the behavior will extinguish. You can attach a command, like "off." And then when you see the dog on all fours on the floor, reward.

When my Dobe was very young, I wasn't use to having such a tall dog and would forget and leave a food item on the counter. He'd jump up with his front feet and swipe it. I didn't scold or jerk him down. I removed the food and was from then on extremely careful about remembering to not leave food on the counter. When he jumped up a few more tries, but discovered NO payoff for jumping up, he stopped jumping up entirely. Now, I can leave food on the counter and he still doesn't jump up to get it. That behavior became habit and formed a pathway in his brain which dictated or hardwired in his brain, as a default.... that there is simply no jumping on the counter. Dogs don't think exactly like humans. Sometimes behaviors will, though creep back in and that means that it wasn't proofed.

 

[Doberluv]

It has been a law of mammalian behavior since Pavlov and Lorenz and other behavioral scientists, studied, experimented and proven that if there is a pay off for any given behavior, the likelihood of that behavior being repeated is greatly increased. In addition, if there is no payoff for a given behavior, the likelihood of that behavior of being repeated is greatly reduced.

The trouble is....why some of you and many trainers/owners don't buy this is because you are NOT seeing that payoff. It can slip past us all if we're not looking for it or thinking. If a dog keeps doing something that you don't like, look, think, try to see where is he being rewarded...how is he being rewarded.

Think of your own behavior. What do you engage in repeatedly that you don't get any benefit from what so ever? But, before you answer that, think long and hard and make sure you're not missing something. What do you engage in often that you do get something good from?

One more little example of something my Dobe has learned fairly recently: He was running through my vegetable garden and making a mess. I didn't scream at him or scruff him, yank him or tell him "NO." He didn't know any better. And his payoff was that it was fun to run through there. I taught him an incompatible behavior and that was "out." How can he be in the garden if he is out of the garden? I showed him to stay out on the grass by walking close to him and coaxing him out.... and gave the word, "out." Everytime he would step into the garden, I said, "Out" and when he stepped out, I'd reward profusely. Even when he wasn't in the garden, but maybe walking along side it, I'd say, "Gooooood Out." And reward. He doesn't go in the garden at all anymore.

 

[oriondw]

P.S Ridgebacks do great with other methods. We have at least five. Not one of them has seen a choker in his life and all behave well around foxes,rabbits etc. It's all training.

That is great.

However, you have not answered his question

How would you stop a 100 pound dog from running after a rabit or a squirl.

 

[Rose's Gal]

One more little example of something my Dobe has learned fairly recently: He was running through my vegetable garden and making a mess. I didn't scream at him or scruff him, yank him or tell him "NO." He didn't know any better. And his payoff was that it was fun to run through there. I taught him an incompatible behavior and that was "out." How can he be in the garden if he is out of the garden? I showed him to stay out on the grass by walking close to him and coaxing him out.... and gave the word, "out." Everytime he would step into the garden, I said, "Out" and when he stepped out, I'd reward profusely. Even when he wasn't in the garden, but maybe walking along side it, I'd say, "Gooooood Out." And reward. He doesn't go in the garden at all anymore.

I wouldn't punish a dog for doing something that he didn't know he wasn't supposed to do. That is one of the things that bugs me about the class I'm in. The trainers are good, but the kids have no clue what they are doing. I've seen somebody tell their dog to sit, then pop him with the leash when he doesn't, when the dog has no clue what "sit" means.
As I said before, I use it to reinforce my commands.
Let's say Blackie would steal food off of the counter. I would 1.) remove the food and 2.) teach Blackie to sit and not jump when he wants something. (And that works too. So now if somebody comes outside with a plate full of food, he will just sit and not bug the person. lol)
Let's say that Blackie begged at the table. I wouldn't pop him with the leash every time he comes up to beg. I would teach him to lay down away from the table while we are eating. (I did that with him, and now he doesn't beg as much. He'll just go lay down, and then we'll give him scraps when he is laying down and not bugging us.)

I also think that they main reason I use a Choke Chain is because it lets me control Blackie so much easier. It is hard to control an 80lb dog that can drag about 3x that weight without trying, while he is trying with all of his might to get to another dog. He can slip out of any collar (even those "no slip" ones) and is a really strong puller. The Choke Chain just lets me control him better (and he can't slip out of it).

(P.S. Blackie also has a neck like a Bull, so I'm sure the corrections I give him don't amount to much anyway, since he has such a thick neck. Oh, and good for Lyric on not going in the garden anymore! )

 

[Rose's Gal]

How would you stop a 100 pound dog from running after a rabit or a squirl.

You don't. You hang on for dear life. lol (JK!! lol)

 

[Watts]

I use a "choke" chain. But, it doesn't really choke him. He knows when it gets tight, he should be close. The leash, not the collar. I just use one because his regular collar slips right off his head so easily. I have a retractable leash and if he's away from me and turn a certain way it'll come right off. So i use the "choke" chain because it stays snug. Not because i want to choke him. Even when he's pulling on it, which he hardly does, it doesn't even choke him. Maybe i got a choke chain that doesn't work? Anyhow, I just wanted to say not every dog that you see with one is being choked. I know mine isn't. I just have a piece of mind that my 80lbs. dog isn't gonna get off lead because his collar slipped off.

oh, and sorry for getting in this late. Just wanted to say my piece. i'm gone now...

 

[mrose_s]

I had a major puller, my Dobe. I've never had such a persistant beast. I didn't use a choke collar in training him not to pull. .

Buster Pulled alot aswell, I had used the choke chain a couple of times but to no avail, i just felt bad for him. HE was really weazing. And then I found this site... and WOW... positive reinforcment training and although he still pulls. Nowhere near as much and when i stop and say "heal" he actually does. I don't see the need for the choke chain. not as of yet

 

[Rose's Gal]

Buster Pulled alot as well, I had used the choke chain a couple of times but to no avail, i just felt bad for him. He was really weazing.

If you were using it correctly, he shoudn't have been weazing. JMO. The Chain is supposed to stay loose unless you were giving a correction. If you just put it on him and let him pull while it was choking him, you weren't using it right. A Choke Chain is not meant to be used like that. As I said earlier, I wouldn't put a Choke Chain on a dog that pulls. It isn't like a head collar or something like that that just stops pulling. The only way I can think of right now to use a Choke Chain to stop pulling would be to teach him heel and correct him anytime he starts walking ahead of you. Any other way, IMO, wouldn't work. You don't really teach a dog to not pull with a Choke Chain unless you are teaching him to heel.

 

[oriondw]

In any case, Pinch collor is a much better choice then a choke chain.

It works better and causes less discomfort to the dog.

 

[bridey_01]

Ok, for the ridgeback question. If you don't want to do any training, or use level positive stuff that would probably take a while, you could just go get yourself a halti.
But, if you are willing to take the steps, i will email you the procedure. It definetly works. We have ridgebacks that don't bat an eyelid as we walk a cat past!
(Then again we have ones that stare with huge intensity at the cat, but they don't move.)

 

[bridey_01]

Doberluv is right. A behaviour will only continue if it is rewarded. Example, pulling on the lead is self rewarding, most dogs love a good pull!

 

[siemens716]

a collar should do the same job without noosing the dog

YOu have no idea how quickly you would lift off the ground.

 

[siemens716]

P.S Ridgebacks do great with other methods. We have at least five. Not one of them has seen a choker in his life and all behave well around foxes,rabbits etc. It's all training.

I'd have to see it to believe it.

 

[siemens716]

Ok, for the ridgeback question. If you don't want to do any training, or use level positive stuff that would probably take a while, you could just go get yourself a halti.
But, if you are willing to take the steps, i will email you the procedure. It definetly works. We have ridgebacks that don't bat an eyelid as we walk a cat past!
(Then again we have ones that stare with huge intensity at the cat, but they don't move.)

Thanks but no thanks. My Ridgeback is very well trained and very obidient, thanks to lots of training and a choke collar.

 

[BagelDog]

I used a choke chain with my Dachshund in training and it worked in what we were trying to do. She almost killed our cat and it put her back in line. Positive reinforcement training would not have done that.

 

[oriondw]

Doberluv is right. A behaviour will only continue if it is rewarded. Example, pulling on the lead is self rewarding, most dogs love a good pull!

So when your dog pulls, what do you do?

Turning around and going in other direction is negative reinforcement and thus you cant be doing that! He learns that when he pulls he goes in a different direction so he pulls less to avoid the thing he likes less.


You dont believe in shaking scruff? You dont belive in saying harsh NO?

Id love to see you control a dog that is more then 100-140 pounds when there is a stimulus that evokes fight drive. You'd get flown across the room faster then you can say "positive training".

Hopefully you'll never have a dog like that.

 

[Doberluv]

So when your dog pulls, what do you do?

I stop. I make random turns. I make frequent sits. I have the dog taught to watch me and pay attention. I give praise and reward when there is slack in the leash. My dog rarely pulls anymore.

Turning around and going in other direction is negative reinforcement and thus you cant be doing that! He learns that when he pulls he goes in a different direction so he pulls less to avoid the thing he likes less.

Why can't you be using negative reinforcement? Negative reinforcement in this case is removing (subtracting) a privilege....that is.....moving forward, going for the walk.

You dont believe in shaking scruff? You dont belive in saying harsh NO?

I don't believe in being aggressive to a dog. Putting a dog on the defensive is dangerous and foolish. I don't disbelieve in saying a harsh "No" in certain, emergency situations. I don't use it with regular training. I don't see a need for it.

Id love to see you control a dog that is more then 100-140 pounds when there is a stimulus that evokes fight drive. You'd get flown across the room faster then you can say "positive training".

Hopefully you'll never have a dog like that.

If I had a dog like that, I'd train it before it was 140LBs so that the chance of that happening would be mimimal. And if I obtained it as an adult with no training, I certainly wouldn't be working backwards in gaining it's trust. I think the most important tool we have with our dogs is our relationship. If the dog isn't afraid of being scruffed, yanked, jerked, harshly spoken to, he trusts us enough to make those important decisions, as their leader. When you spoil that trust, he tends to lack security in us and take more on himself in making those decisions.

My dog just showed that very thing to me a few days ago by obeying my halt and down command when at a dead run, in fight drive toward another dog.

140 LBs is nothing. If that's a problem, hopefully you don't ever have a 1000 Lb, semi wild horse to control. If you scruffed, slapped, yelled or jerked, you'd be in for the ride of your life, faster than you could say, "Aggressive training."

 

[Renee750il]

I've got those dogs, and don't have a need for being aggressive toward them to get them to respond. The worst thing they've ever had is a switch flicked on the back of the legs when they were willfully ignoring me (Filas can be very good at that, lol). All it took was once. They sat down immediately and gave me their undivided attention. It was all I could do not to laugh, especially since I knew darned good and well it didn't hurt them in the least! All I have to do now if they think they want to do their thing when I want them to do mine is ask "do I have to get a switch?" It's really comical. The only reason I ever have to do it at all is if the cows are too close to the house, and even then it's a rare occurence that they don't come to me and sit when I call them and ask them what happened to their manners. I'm even making some headway with Kharma's obsessive droving.

As far as being out, they trust my judgement as the last word, mainly because they have no reason to distrust me and every reason TO trust me.

As far as 'handling' goes, those new collars you bought for Orion look like they'd be the best possible choice.

 

[gaddylovesdogs]

I think many people use choke and prong collars because they think that they will automatically have more control over their dog and/or that they look cool using them.

I believe that choke collars may work well on one dog while it won't for another. For example: My chocolate lab. She walks at my side 98% of our walks. She's almost always in heel position, and at her own will. I don't need to use a choke collar on her. It simply isn't needed. I don't really need a choke collar for ANY of my dogs. I will occassionally use one on my collie/shepherd mix, but that's only for working on her dog/dog aggression, (which is getting much better) and I don't always use it when training with her.

 

[Doberluv]

I used a choke chain with my Dachshund in training and it worked in what we were trying to do. She almost killed our cat and it put her back in line. Positive reinforcement training would not have done that.

Bagel dog:

What kind of positive reinforcement are you talking about which would not work in this case? What procedure or step by step method do you imagine being used, IF positive reinforcement were tried, that makes you think it wouldn't have worked?