Those **** choke chains

[bridey_01]

Go Doberluv, i was beginning to think i was outnumbered!
As for dogs that chase cars and want to fight, a piece of cheese is OBVIOUSLY not going to be a big enough distraction, but that doesn't mean it calls for physical methods like chains. It just calls for practice and DISTANCE. You arn't gonna start your car mad border collie training beside a highway with a piece of kibble. It's all about levels.

 

[siemens716]

I'm one of the 'dumb' and 'ignorant' as you call 'em choke chain users.

I have two big dogs and they work very well. There is no need to yank on anything anymore because the dogs know what I expect.

Just because a method works well for you doesn't mean other methods are wrong.

 

[oriondw]

There is a time and a place for prongs/chains and anyone saying that they will ONLY use the chains or would NEVER use a chain is simply ignorant, and really should not be considered as a qualified dog trainer.

Knowing when to use them and when not to use them is the key, and obviously how to use them.

 

[Summer Magic]

In my opinion using choke collars or pinch collars are a short cut to an obedient dog (through fear or force.) I will agree that in some cases they are needed (at first) to stop undesirable behavior immediately then replaced with a flat nylon or martingale collar. All of a dogs reactions are due to some sort of stimuli. It may not be something you are aware of, but punishment is really not the way to teach the dog to curb undesirable behavior. You may supress the behavior with a choke collar but you won't correct the response. Time patience and positive R will get the job done, it may not happen over night, but the trainer will have a happy well adjusted pet that isn't going to be a time bomb waiting to go off.

 

[bridey_01]

I'm sorry but i totally disagree that a trainer who refuses to use a choker should be considered not qualified, that's just ridiculous. Our entire club of at least twenty instructors will refuse a choke chain entering the grounds. These trainers are some of the best in the country and have dealt with an awful number of behavioural problems without the use of force. But it is the handlers that praise the method the most! Even old choker people with CD dogs, trained with chokers so they obviously know how to use them, move onto more modern methods with great enthusiasm and relief.

 

[Renee750il]

Charley's got several old choke-chains laying around that have been here for decades, lol! It's handy to throw one over Kharma's head when I take her out for her constitutional (she can't be loose during the day - she won't stop herding the cows, another story), but she learned to walk on a leash with a halter, so it's just a matter of convenience to throw it over her head when she needs to go out.

I'm grateful there wasn't much teaching to any of them on the leash. I used a harness for them and it just was never an issue.

 

[Amstaffer]

I'm sorry but i totally disagree that a trainer who refuses to use a choker should be considered not qualified, that's just ridiculous.

I agree with Bridey, personal slams aren't needed. You can argue your case with out getting personal.

I think both methods can be used and be effective. The important thing to remember is PROPERLY used. Any training method performed incorrectly will not work.

 

[oriondw]

I agree with Bridey, personal slams aren't needed. You can argue your case with out getting personal.

I think both methods can be used and be effective. The important thing to remember is PROPERLY used. Any training method performed incorrectly will not work.

Wasnt a personal attack, just an observation.

Every one of your posts lately have been very confrontational. I wonder why...

 

[Doberluv]

I agree with Bridey.

A small in put ...it's better to use a chain collar ( I don't like to call them choke ) if properly trained ,than having a dog pulling and choking with a regular collar.

But those aren't the only choices, thank God.

I had a major puller, my Dobe. I've never had such a persistant beast. I didn't use a choke collar in training him not to pull. Dobes have long necks and are prone to CVI and other spinal related injuries. I used motivation and reward only. He now heels quite nicely without any collar or leash. We're getting into some advanced obedience and he learns swiftly and beautifully without any sterness what so ever. It's reward or nothing and his undesireable behavior extinguishes. Operant conditioning has been studied and used by enlightened trainers for a long, long time. It has been shown to be the most effective behavioral modification method there is to produce a reliably trained animal who is happier and more willing to work. It is used on all kinds of mammals, ones who can't be punished by jerks or scoldings, dolphins, for one. Undesireable behavior goes away when trained properly. Anyone who doesn't believe it, is either not understanding it completely or not training correctly. You can't leave out important steps in training. You can't leave out half of the information and then wonder why it isn't working.

There is a time and a place for prongs/chains and anyone saying that they will ONLY use the chains or would NEVER use a chain is simply ignorant, and really should not be considered as a qualified dog trainer.

Knowing when to use them and when not to use them is the key, and obviously how to use them.

HUH???

It just calls for practice and DISTANCE. You arn't gonna start your car mad border collie training beside a highway with a piece of kibble. It's all about levels.

Absolutely. You wouldn't end up with a situation where you felt you had to use a choke or prong collar if the dog is trained correctly from the onset. You can't skip steps in teaching your dog. It's like punishing a toddler child for not running the 25 yd. dash, when he hasn't even crawled yet, much less walked.

Anyone who thinks that punishment based training is the only way "sometimes," is flat out missing the boat. I've seen and worked with some very difficult, problem behavior and relied on operant conditioning...no jerks, yanks, scolding. I like to keep my doggie pupils trusting me to the utmost, to the max, working for reward in order to respect me. A dog needs to look up to his owner for security or he'll become resistant....thinking his leader sucks and he better do that job. Causing pain or fear is not being a clear leader to a dog. Assertiveness, yes, but in training....guidance and reward. If a dog has worries about what is coming next, he is insecure in his handler and not 100% "there."

I don't know why people don't look into it more. It's so much more fun for both dog and owner and so much more effective.

 

[Amstaffer]

Wasnt a personal attack, just an observation.

Every one of your posts lately have been very confrontational. I wonder why...

How is this confrontational? Just trying to bring the discussion back to logic and steer away from personal comments. I was attempting the opposite of confrontational.

 

[Vickih]

Whatever you post here is going to be disagreed with by somebody because we are such a big community.

In threads like this, too many people jump in thinking their way is the right way...its an argument waiting to happen.

 

[Rose's Gal]

I only read the first couple of posts, so forgive me if this seems off topic. lol

When properly used, I don't see why you can't use a choke chain. I train Blackie with one. But I also praise him and give him treats when he does what I want him to do. I basically use the choke chain to reinforce the commands he knows, but doesn't do when I tell him to. Like if I say sit, and he just looks at me blankly even though he knows this command perfectly, I'll give him a correction. When he sits, I praise him.
I would NEVER use a Choke Chain to stop a dog from pulling. That is dangerous. They aren't meant for that. I recentally got Rose a harness. It isn't a "No pull" harness, but it lets me control her so much better, so unstead of yanking her back every few steps (I can't do the stop and wait thing because I walk both dogs at the same time) I can just hold her by my side without choking her (she wears a normal collar) and then I just praise her when she isn't straining on the lead. She has picked up really quickly.
When I correct a dog, it is fast, firm, and fair. If the dog doesn't know a command and I tell it to him, would I correct? Heck no. I'd show him what I want him to do, then praise him when he complies. If you correct a dog when he doesn't know what he is supposed to be doing in the first place, it won't do anything.
You also have to correct the dog, exactly when he starts to do the bad behavior. If I'm doing a down stay with Blackie and gets up, I correct him as soon as I see him move to get up. When we walk by another dog, I don't correct Blackie when he starts growling and lunging at the dog, I correct him when he looks at the dog, and I give him yummy treats when he pays no attention to the dog. (He has gotten much better with other dogs now.) Just like when you "click" the clicker it has to be exactly what you want, you have to correct exactly when the behavior starts. You can't wait for the full throttle behavior.
I also think that on sinsitive dogs, you shouldn't be correcting very hard, if at all. Same with fear driven dogs.
Oh, and also, when you correct a dog, you shouldn't be jerking him around. You snap sideways, and as soon as you hear the chain tighten and fell the impact, you loosing emediatly. The dog shouldn't be moved by the force of the chain.

Personally, I like a mix of the meathods. I praise and treat and lure and reward to teach a dog something, but I'll correct the dog if he does something I don't like that he knows he isn't supposed to do. It draws a line, IMO. "If I stay on the right side and do these things, I get treats and praise, and lots of other things. If I go to the left side and do these things, I get a verbal, "No." and a leash jerk. Guess I'll just stay on the right side."
(Holy cow that was a long post...lol)

 

[bridey_01]

I think i've come to realize through this thread that there are some that are "enlightened" and some that arn't, just yet. I agree that is must be very hard for old school chokers to come around to a method with no harsh corrections, and to fully understand how a behaviour is extinguished if it is not rewarded (thereby rendering punishments useless). I geuss to others the positive method may seem impossible, as they have been using choke chains for so long they may see no other way. I do respect other peoples opinions (hard as it may be!) and i think they are entitled to them. I just wanted them to know that there is a better way.

 

[siemens716]

Tell me a better way to restrain a 100 pound Rhodesian Ridgeback from lunging and sprinting after a rabbit.

 

[mrose_s]

a collar should do the same job without noosing the dog

 

[bridey_01]

A halti will give you heaps more control than a choke chain. But the choker was never made to restrain dogs, it was made for momentary corrections.

 

[bridey_01]

P.S Ridgebacks do great with other methods. We have at least five. Not one of them has seen a choker in his life and all behave well around foxes,rabbits etc. It's all training.

 

[Rose's Gal]

I guess this is my way of thinking:
I agree with positive meathods. That, to me, seems like the best choice. I don't agree with the way some people use choke chains. And I also know that Blackie is perfectly fine with one and he loves training because when I train him he wags his tail. Heaven forbid a dog wearing a Choke Chain should be happy while being trained! (That was sarcastic you know. )
But I guess what I think of is this, as I stated earlier: "If a dog knows that when he does a certain thing he will get rewarded, that behavior will go up. If he knows that when he does a certain thing, he will get corrected, that behavior will decrease." I guess I think that way because that is how the rules go at our house. We cross the line, we get grounded. If we are good, we get a treat (like a video game or in my case, a Ferret! lol)
I agree that punishing some dogs doesn't work. A Greyhound would completly fall apart if you punished it and a Terrier would retaliate.
I believe that there is a trianing meathod for each individual dog. What works for one, won't nessicarly work for the other.

 

[Doberluv]

Here's the thing: I never scolded my dog for peeing in the house but I did reward him for peeing outside. He learned to not pee in the house. I never jerked on a choke chain or any collar to correct him for not heeling. I used a lure of a treat and reward for his compliance. He heels beautifully. I never scolded or corrected in any way my Doberman for breaking a stay. I'd simply replace him and reward for small successes. It's important to reward for short stays (as an example) before the dog breaks the stay and increase the time he must stay gradually. Same with "watch me." Reward for just a second of eye contact and gradually increase. This way, you won't feel a need to correct. There's nothing to correct. Each time the dog breaks the command before you've had a chance to reward, you've lost momentum. Anyhow, he now stays lying down for 5 minutes at 200 feet away from me while I am out of his sight. I never scolded with my voice or a any physical correction for missing an obstacle or not wanting to go on an obstacle in agility class. It was reward or nothin'. He learned all the names of all the equipment, went onto, through, around, over each obstacle with confidence and skill.

You do not need to show a dog what is wrong in order for him to know what is right. You can if you want to. But you don't have to. And when they are working for reward only, it drives them, motivates them, makes them happier and more willing IMO than for them to work to avoid punishment. I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. LOL.

 

[oriondw]

I think i've come to realize through this thread that there are some that are "enlightened" and some that arn't, just yet. I agree that is must be very hard for old school chokers to come around to a method with no harsh corrections, and to fully understand how a behaviour is extinguished if it is not rewarded (thereby rendering punishments useless). I geuss to others the positive method may seem impossible, as they have been using choke chains for so long they may see no other way. I do respect other peoples opinions (hard as it may be!) and i think they are entitled to them. I just wanted them to know that there is a better way.

Dont know how many times I have posted this, but here we go again:

If a behaviour is ignored it will only escalate...