Shutzhund/Personal protection trainers

[amymarley]

Again, my training is an art form to me... therefore, I don't use prong or other harsh methods. I firmly believe that if you are a true trainer, than you can use your gifts and become one with the animal. I am not trying to sound like a bunny hugger, but I do this as a profession. Of course, coming into it, I had no idea, but I learned over 10 years. Everyone has their own method, and that is their right. I am not here to start a war, I just know my own abilities and have seen the outcome of the animals (not just dogs) that I have trained.

Also, most people on here are not "animal trainers" but do train their dog. I have learned from some of the best. As long as you love your dog and do positive reinforcement, not much can go wrong. The most problems that I see, is when I get hired for a behavior consult and the "trainer" or owner is doing it all wrong. Good luck!

 

[Dobiegurl]

Again, my training is an art form to me... therefore, I don't use prong or other harsh methods. I firmly believe that if you are a true trainer, than you can use your gifts and become one with the animal. I am not trying to sound like a bunny hugger, but I do this as a profession. Of course, coming into it, I had no idea, but I learned over 10 years. Everyone has their own method, and that is their right. I am not here to start a war, I just know my own abilities and have seen the outcome of the animals (not just dogs) that I have trained.

Also, most people on here are not "animal trainers" but do train their dog. I have learned from some of the best. As long as you love your dog and do positive reinforcement, not much can go wrong. The most problems that I see, is when I get hired for a behavior consult and the "trainer" or owner is doing it all wrong. Good luck!

But I am not a trainer and I am still learning. I'm sure as I mature and grow in this "dog" world I will find better ways to train. My dog and I are a team and he's a "momma's boy"(never leaves my side). My trainer instructed me in training my dog and I listened and trust her and he turned out great.

Some behaviors cannot be ignored and that is what is mostly done in the "positive reinforcements". When a dog does something wrong your supposed to ignore the bahavior but some behaviors need corrections. I had dominant issues with my dog and he would get in my face and start barking because he was mad for some reason. I tried to ignore that behavior for a while until he started following me barking and growling until one day he bit me. That was the last straw and I refused to let him bite me again. So I corrected him for that kind of behavior.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I use positive reinforcement for most training, but this does NOT involve letting dogs run wild and behave like brats.

I run a tight ship around here. Dogs are expected to promptly do as they are told, and they do.

Just because one chooses to use positive reinforcement and less force during TRAINING does NOT mean that one ignores disrespectful bratty behavior.

I do not believe in using force or pain to TEACH something to a dog. I also don't find it necessary.

 

[Dobiegurl]

I use positive reinforcement for most training, but this does NOT involve letting dogs run wild and behave like brats.

I run a tight ship around here. Dogs are expected to promptly do as they are told, and they do.

Just because one chooses to use positive reinforcement and less force during TRAINING does NOT mean that one ignores disrespectful bratty behavior.
I do not believe in using force or pain to TEACH something to a dog. I also don't find it necessary.

I am talking about ALL positive and NO corrections.


I have always felt that dogs need praise so that they do not get bored with training and know what is right but some bad behaviors cannot be ignored like how I mentioned before how Chico used to bark at me and made it impossible to ignore. He had to be corrected for that behavior because he got really out of hand.

 

[SummerRiot]

NOT a good idea to have your show dog do protection work.

I actually looking into it with Riot.. and him being already iffy with strangers it wasn't a good plan..

Just remember.. even the police dogs that are WELL trained, turn on them.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

DobieGirl, in my personal experience, all one thing does not tend to be a good approach to any sort of dog training. I don't know of anyone who patently ignores bad or disrespectful behavior of puppies in favor of exclusively postive training. NEGATIVE reinforcement does not have to equate to abusive training methods. A certain look, a verbal AH AH, or a certain physical stance in response to a dog or puppy can be an effective "negative" reinforcement. Almost all trainers who are successful use a combination of both.

SummerRiot, I have personally exhibited several dogs who were pretty hot on the sleeve, and who really enjoyed their work.

Never did I have a single issue with people approaching these dogs. With a CORRECTLY TEMPERAMENTED DOG, sleeve work is fun, and dogs learn to understand what constitutes a threat from a human.

A person walking up with a friendly attitude should not constitute a threat or present a problem for ANY properly trained dog.

JMO as always.

 

[Dobiegurl]

DobieGirl, in my personal experience, all one thing does not tend to be a good approach to any sort of dog training. I don't know of anyone who patently ignores bad or disrespectful behavior of puppies in favor of exclusively postive training. NEGATIVE reinforcement does not have to equate to abusive training methods. A certain look, a verbal AH AH, or a certain physical stance in response to a dog or puppy can be an effective "negative" reinforcement. Almost all trainers who are successful use a combination of both.

Thats what I've been trying to say. I believe in using a combination of both positive and negative but I think everyone misundestands what I mean by correction. I never said that correcting was harsh. I was mostly referring to verbal corrections. I think everyone is confusing harsh with firm. If Chico does something wrong I don't beat the crap out of him, I just simply say uh-uh and he stops. I've been trying to say from the beginning that you should use a combination of both.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

You mention several times about trainers who in your opinion use nothing but positive, and who ignore/allow/do not correct at all any undesireable behaviors as a reason why YOU don't choose to use positive reinforcement training.

You never once mentioned using a combination of methods.

 

[Dobiegurl]

And don't think I don't praise him for good work because he gets alot of praise and he loves training. I just feel some dogs need a balance of both to be the best dogs they can be.

I said it right their that there is a balance and I never said I don't use postive training, I just said it did not work ONLY relying on positive training and I needed a combination of both. He gets both positive and negative consequences in training.

 

[amymarley]

I should have added that I do use correction, just positive correction. Just like children etc..., dogs have to be corrected and taught "how" to do something. I just don't do it to the point where the dog is broken (AND I am NOT saying ANYONE here does)... but I have heard horrible stories, mostly the "old school" training methods, which is not needed.

I have used my "training voice" and have used a corrective collar, but inserted postive behavior modification methods. I used a corrective collar to teach my lab/chow mix to heel for about 2 weeks, that was in 1995 (yes, he is still alive). I can walk him anywhere, ask him to heel, and he will heel like he was figure skating with me. What a great pooch!

 

[Dobiegurl]

I should have added that I do use correction, just positive correction. Just like children etc..., dogs have to be corrected and taught "how" to do something. I just don't do it to the point where the dog is broken (AND I am NOT saying ANYONE here does)... but I have heard horrible stories, mostly the "old school" training methods, which is not needed.

I have used my "training voice" and have used a corrective collar, but inserted postive behavior modification methods. I used a corrective collar to teach my lab/chow mix to heel for about 2 weeks, that was in 1995 (yes, he is still alive). I can walk him anywhere, ask him to heel, and he will heel like he was figure skating with me. What a great pooch!

I can understand the confusion but I never said I beat the crap out of my dog. When my dog does something wrong he gets a verbal correction and rarely a physical correction (I don't mean actually hitting him, just a collar correction). When he was younger and used to jump up on the counter I would grab him and put him on floor and say off. It was never harsh or abusive. I never once mentioned the old school training, which was horrible. I do not feel any correction is positive to a dog because they love to please and just a verbal correction can upset some dogs. But I have stated from the beginning that he needed guidance but also a reward every now and then to show him he's doing the right thing.

 

[Dobiegurl]

All animals need a from of correction when growing and maturing. For example: When puppies are still with their mother they get corrected. IF the puppy bit her to hard or just started to irritate the mom then she would grab his neck. The mom doesn't set out to hurt her pup its just a way of letting him know thats a no-no.

I'm sure as a trainer you see many ignorant people say well the only way my dog listens to me is if I beat the crap out of him, and you felt that that was what I meant. But far from it, I believe correction or punishment is not to hurt the dog, its just to let them know what is right and wrong. You should not set out to break your dogs spirit while correcting but some people think othewise and still rely on the old school methods, which are harsh and abusive. They have come up with more effective ways to train that does not lower your dogs confidence or make you be mean and cruel.

I think we all had a miscommunication. I thought you were a person who just ignored bad behavior and NEVER even said "no" to your dog (believe me, i have meet people who believe saying "no" to their dog is wrong) and you got the impression that I'm a phyco dog beater. I think that we both have the same idea as to where the dog does not need to have its spirit broken to learn and need praise, lots f praise, but they do need guidance that does not effect the dogs self esteem, and correcting your dog does not mean you have to inflict pain on them. Just a reminder that what they are doing is a no-no.

 

[Dobiegurl]

That is a very typical answer for people who don't know enough about positive training methods and operant conditioning yet. It was a topic that came up repeatedly at the last training seminar I attended and was discussed in great detail.

Believe me, it works on any kind of animal, from a (relatively dumb) chicken to highly intelligent dolphins and anything in between - that fact is scientifically proven. It's even used on people. You just need to find the correct approach and motivation for the individual in question and failure is generally a problem in applying the methods correctly and "getting the point across", not in the dog.

I read for example that you said your dog was getting too fixated on the treat - that is one example for wrong implementation of clicker training.

Positive training does not mean the dog is generally without guidance, "out of control" and is just running wild until it decides to listen for once and the trainer never interferes.

"Discipline" does not equal pain or discomfort. It means establishing a set of firm rules the dog is expected to live by and these do not require enforcement by yanking on the collar, hitting or worse. (To make it clear, I'm not saying you are doing this, it's just a general statement about certain training methods.)

I guess what I'm getting at is don't knock what you don't know. We all have our limitations and I'm sure I would think less highly of positive methods if I hadn't seen them applied and working to all kinds of dogs across the board, consistently. And I'm lucky to have an obedience instructor who firmly believes in these concepts and knows how to apply them - up to the highest levels of utility obedience.

I was not referring to the whole concept of operant conditioning. That is a broad idea of how animals learn and there are many things involved both positive and negative reinforcements. Punishment in this form of training should not be used as an abuser, just something that will make that behavior less likely in the future. I was referring to treats which is only one form of a primary reinforcer. Others can be a tug of war game or, like me, I just used a verbal reward that would have been considered the conditioned reinforcer but in my case was the primary reinforcer. The verbal reward was enough to keep Chico motivated because he loves pleasing me and as long as I let him know he was doing what I wanted he was going to keep doing it. There are many variables involved in operant conditioning and never doubted the concept just saying that all dogs will not respond to the same reinforcer (play, verbal, treats, verbal correction, ect) There are many techniques to enforce the good and eliminate the bad behaviors.