Shutzhund/Personal protection trainers

[BigDog2191]

Sorry, but I've got to disagree with you. I see something very wrong with choking dogs until they go unconscious.

But I do agree with your view on positive reinforcement. There's nothing wrong with using correction. But if positive reinforcement works wonderfully on your dog, I don't see a reason to start using correction "just because".

I've seen no such thing at his website. I did see that he advises people to go through intense training when they're having problems with their dogs and to even use a prong collar. And -that- is exactly what I do agree with.

Choking a dog until it goes unconscious is inhumane and simply -wrong-.

I don't care too much for Ed Frawley as he is a big jerk but from what -I- saw, I didn't see why everyone hated him, because he has given some great advice. But now that you tell me he's advising people to do such things and doing them to his own dogs, that's a different story. I may have to go back and take a look at his website again.

 

[BigDog2191]

I somewhat agree with some of the basic ideas he has, i.e. establishing yourself as Top Dog and not letting your dog run the show, but past that, no thanks. I quit 'listening' to him when he advised someone to beat the crap out of their dog for jumping, including kicking them in the butt when they were down on the ground whimpering from the knee in the chest.

I do understand that he works with extremely high-drive GSD's and probably for so long that he's forgotten not every dog has to be almost killed in order for it to respect you.

As far as Shutzhund for "Jazz", I'd find a good trainer who will tell you if your dog has the right temperment for it to begin with.

Zoom, Rocky is a very high-drive dog as well. And I have done no such thing as Ed Frawley has with his dogs and still maintain my German shepherd to being a good, under control pet.

Because he works with high-drive dogs is no excuse to choke them unconscious.

 

[Gempress]

Bigdog, check this link. Look under the section about handler aggressive dogs. It clearly recommends hanging the dog (using a leash passed over a tree limb) until it passes out.

http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm

 

[JennSLK]

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something that causes the dog to attack me. When he does I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. When the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell him he will not bite me.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.

I want to cry

 

[Dobiegurl]

I heel the dog to this location and attach the line to the dominant dog collar. At that point I will do something that causes the dog to attack me. When he does I offer the arm with the hidden sleeve. When the dog is biting the arm the second handler will raise the dogs 4 feet off the ground. I remain totally calm and look the dog in the eye and tell him he will not bite me.

The dog stays there until he passes out. Then he is lowered to the ground and lies there until he regains consciousness. Then we start again. Usually these kind of dogs will only have to be hung 2 or 3 times and they quickly learn that you are a big person - the way they look at it is that you have the power to kill them at any time. This is a big big point in establishing dominance with dogs like this.

That is terrible. I never actually looked at the training articles I just read about drive work to get an understanding. As for the person who said why not rely on only positive reinforcement does not know my dog. If that works for you then thats fine but there are many dogs who OWN there owners and need a correction every once in a while. You do not know my dog but he is literally crazy. He has a very high drive and dominant personality. At eight weeks old he had my friends scared of him and he never backs down. He tries to overthrow my authority, and he needs to be corrected to let him know I am in charge. I agree with Ed that the dog should know you have the power but what he does is just un necessary and rediculous. My dog needs corrections in order for us to live in the same house. I would probably be dead right now if I did not correct Chico because he has the power to leave serious damage if he did not know who was in charge. When dealing with a dominant, working dog such as the Doberman you need corrections to keep your status in check. Not all dogs need them but when you have a very dominant 85LB of pure muscle Doberman they are crucial. Also he does not get treats when training because he gets too fixated on the food and ignores me. I know what works for my dog because he has been with me since he was eight weeks old and some people need to handle their out of control dog and not let the dog handles you.

 

[Brattina88]

If you take classes on early childhood education you're taught that there is a difference between discipline and punishment in teaching. I know that they're just words, and it depends on how people view them, but I believe discipline is the corrections that are sometimes necessary. Punishment is beyond that, hanging the dog, physically pinning one down for 10mins, hitting, kicking, ect is NOT okay. In my experience yelling and hitting increases levels of aggression. There are ways to show a dog "who's boss" without doing so physically. We, as humans, are supposed to have the brains to know and do this. Positive reinforcement is awesome, and usually works for most dogs, but not all. There isn't a single training technique for kids that works with every kid, and the same goes with dogs.

 

[Dobiegurl]

Wouldn't hanging a dog till it passes out lower the dogs confidence? If he does do that then he is controdicting himself because he said without confidence the dog will not be able to excel in Shutzhund and pp work.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

I have 3 bitches who think they are the hottest thing since sliced bread. They live together in my house.

One is an IPO1 import who is one of the most dominant dogs I've ever seen with other bitches. Not a fight picker. Just the big honcho, and very clear about it. She is coming 9 very soon, and still the unquestioned bosslady in the yard and the house.

One is a 4YO troublemaker-since-day-one nervy tip toe walking WHAT-ARE-YOU-LOOKING at type of bitch with other dogs. She would love to press the envelope with the old bitch. She does get verbally corrected by me if she gets too over bearing.

and #3 is a VERY self confident but easy breezy loving girl who is not push over but does not look for trouble.

The smallest of the 3 is 94 lbs.

The young bitch who is 19 mos is skimming 100 all the time. Sometimes minus, most times +.

I control this pack with my eyes. If I stand up in a certain manner, everyone is on the deck with their chin on the floor. They lie this way when we eat as well. I don't raise my voice. I don't push, shove, or collar correct. But I'm a VERY powerful alpha, and I control all resources to my benefit.

I do almost exclusively all positive clicker-type training. You can see some of my results in the Training forum under "clips of the Retrieve".

I use correction when it's necessary. The longer I have dogs and the more I learn, and the more I train, the less I find necessary.

 

[Dobiegurl]

I'm not saying I'm yanking Chico's collar left and right, but when he was younger he needed to learn I was not his littermate but the leader of the pack. Now since he is almost a year old he knows when is work time and when is play time. I too, give him the look with my hands on my hips and feet planted on the ground and an intense look in my face and when I do that he drops to the floor like an automatic down. He still tries to overthrow me and needs a physical correction (not hitting, just a collar pull) but in time he will learn. I've tried the clicker and that made him worse. He got so fixated on the treat that he totally ignored me and the commands I was giving him. As I grow and become more active in the dog world I will probably gain experience and find more affective training methods but what I am doing now seems to be working and my trainer said she was amazed at how much Chico has progressed through his training.

 

[Zoom]

Big Dog, I never said it was an excuse. I rather despise most of this guy's training methods. I guess what I left out was the fact that I had a very similar converstaion with my boss who worked for the Dept. of Defense training their dogs. All are just pretty much nuts when they first get there; they will bite anything and anyone at anytime. So a *very* firm hand is needed, but Ed takes it three steps further. What I was meaning is that most of the dogs in his kennel would probably make Rocky look like a lab in temperment comparison. I'm sure that his constant physical, let's just call it abuse, doesn't help either.

 

[amymarley]

Dang, I could make a buch of money here...lol! I can do protective training and not have your dog pass out, but rather spoil your dog, but give him/her self esteem and exercise his or her mind. That is awful. I do have several protective sleeves, but they are for training, not making your dog break. I don't believe in breaking your dog or his/her will. That is awful.

 

[Mordy]

I use correction when it's necessary. The longer I have dogs and the more I learn, and the more I train, the less I find necessary.

This is an excellent point.

I see so many uninformed people believe in all this "harsh corrections are necessary" BS. I fault them for not being willing to even just read about less outdated methods. Especially in the last 10-15 years so many advances have been made through actual research on how animals learn.

Even in Schutzhund (and other dog sports) the truly gifted trainers train using positive methods.

We can all learn so much from the principles that for example allow us to teach a fully grown killer whale to pee into a cup on command when a urine sample is needed.

So my advice to people new to dog training is: read what you can get your hands on, do not form an opinion until you fully grasp a particular concept, and at least learn about different approaches. After that, there's plenty of time to dissect everything and take away what you want.

 

[Dobiegurl]

This is an excellent point.

I see so many uninformed people believe in all this "harsh corrections are necessary" BS. I fault them for not being willing to even just read about less outdated methods. Especially in the last 10-15 years so many advances have been made through actual research on how animals learn.

Even in Schutzhund (and other dog sports) the truly gifted trainers train using positive methods.

We can all learn so much from the principles that for example allow us to teach a fully grown killer whale to pee into a cup on command when a urine sample is needed.

So my advice to people new to dog training is: read what you can get your hands on, do not form an opinion until you fully grasp a particular concept, and at least learn about different approaches. After that, there's plenty of time to dissect everything and take away what you want.

I tried everything with my dog, from the clicker, to food, to alot of praise and he wouldn't respond. So the only way I could train him was with corrections. Some dogs do need corrections every once in a while and I wil not change my opinion on that. Alot of dogs do respond to the newer training techniques but some won't. People need to realize what is the best way to get a response out of your dog and not just follow one technique because thats the "in" training method.

 

[amymarley]

I tried everything with my dog, from the clicker, to food, to alot of praise and he wouldn't respond. So the only way I could train him was with corrections. Some dogs do need corrections every once in a while and I wil not change my opinion on that. Alot of dogs do respond to the newer training techniques but some won't. People need to realize what is the best way to get a response out of your dog and not just follow one technique because thats the "in" training method.

Dobiegurl... this is meant to be postive, and not attacking you at all... You are not a trainer, nor is many dog loving people on this board. Although, you may say you tried "everything" I am sure you did not do it correctly. As I said on another thread, I admire you for even trying or caring about your dog. Training takes years of experience, and even then, you are still learning. I pride myself as a "professional" NOT an expert, because I an learn new things everyday.

As for the different techniques you have been using, they are all great, you (and others) just don't know the direction, triggers, or responses to correct the behaviors. It does not mean you are a bad dog owner/guardian...at all.

I do believe in correction, to be honeset, all postive training requires correction. How else is a dog, child etc... to learn? It's what you do during the correction and how you do it, is what helps.

I, nor anyone else "really" give you good training advice over the net, since I, (we) don't know you or your dog in person.... I would consult a behavorist/trainer for a session or two and then do a follow up.

Again, you have the heart and drive, but there is "something" not working for you and your dog.
Take care and good luck.
Amy

 

[Dobiegurl]

Dobiegurl... this is meant to be postive, and not attacking you at all... You are not a trainer, nor is many dog loving people on this board. Although, you may say you tried "everything" I am sure you did not do it correctly. As I said on another thread, I admire you for even trying or caring about your dog. Training takes years of experience, and even then, you are still learning. I pride myself as a "professional" NOT an expert, because I an learn new things everyday.

As for the different techniques you have been using, they are all great, you (and others) just don't know the direction, triggers, or responses to correct the behaviors. It does not mean you are a bad dog owner/guardian...at all.

I do believe in correction, to be honeset, all postive training requires correction. How else is a dog, child etc... to learn? It's what you do during the correction and how you do it, is what helps.

I, nor anyone else "really" give you good training advice over the net, since I, (we) don't know you or your dog in person.... I would consult a behavorist/trainer for a session or two and then do a follow up.

Again, you have the heart and drive, but there is "something" not working for you and your dog.
Take care and good luck.
Amy

I never said anyone was attacking me I was just stating my opinion. I have been working with a trainer since Chico was 10 weeks old. She was there to help me through all the training techniques and showed me the right way. We tried everything until one day she gave a choke chain and that still didn't wok. Then she gave me a prong and finally something worked. I don't think you understand what I mean by corrections. I'm not yanking his collar left and right and now since he knows what is expected of him he only need a verbal correction and rarely a physical correction with the leash if he gets to excited and starts pulling. We have come a long way since he was a puppy, it kind of shocked me because when I first got him I was like this is going to be imposible but I am very pleased with the training I have completed so far. He is actually going to his first leg of his CD this saturday. I never would have imagined this could have happened and I am proud of both him and me. When I mean corrections I mean when they are young because without guidance they would be lost. Just like a child, when they are young you have to guide them and discipline them and when they grow up and mature they don't need it anymore. That is whats wrong with the world today. Parents don't dicipline their children anymore and their out of control same things with dogs. These dogs are out of control today they need guidance. I was just trying to say that every dog is different and not every dog is going to respond to every training techniques. Find something that works for you and your dog, not just because everyone else is doing it. Ans don't think I don't praise him for good work because he gets alot of praise and he loves training. I just feel some dogs need a balance of both to be the best dogs they can be. I rather my dog get corrected as a puppy instead of growing up out of control and gets away from me because he was out of control and bit someone and get put down, but thats my opinion.

 

[Mordy]

Alot of dogs do respond to the newer training techniques but some won't.

That is a very typical answer for people who don't know enough about positive training methods and operant conditioning yet. It was a topic that came up repeatedly at the last training seminar I attended and was discussed in great detail.

Believe me, it works on any kind of animal, from a (relatively dumb) chicken to highly intelligent dolphins and anything in between - that fact is scientifically proven. It's even used on people. You just need to find the correct approach and motivation for the individual in question and failure is generally a problem in applying the methods correctly and "getting the point across", not in the dog.

I read for example that you said your dog was getting too fixated on the treat - that is one example for wrong implementation of clicker training.

Positive training does not mean the dog is generally without guidance, "out of control" and is just running wild until it decides to listen for once and the trainer never interferes.

"Discipline" does not equal pain or discomfort. It means establishing a set of firm rules the dog is expected to live by and these do not require enforcement by yanking on the collar, hitting or worse. (To make it clear, I'm not saying you are doing this, it's just a general statement about certain training methods.)

I guess what I'm getting at is don't knock what you don't know. We all have our limitations and I'm sure I would think less highly of positive methods if I hadn't seen them applied and working to all kinds of dogs across the board, consistently. And I'm lucky to have an obedience instructor who firmly believes in these concepts and knows how to apply them - up to the highest levels of utility obedience.

 

[Dobiegurl]

Believe me, it works on any kind of animal, from a (relatively dumb) chicken to highly intelligent dolphins and anything in between - that fact is scientifically proven. It's even used on people. You just need to find the correct approach and motivation for the individual in question and failure is generally a problem in applying the methods correctly and "getting the point across", not in the dog.

I have to disagree. It does not work on every animal or human for that matter. For example I have a friend who has never been punished in her life or even yelled at, all her mom does is tell her how wonderful she is and she's perfect and blah, blah,blah and this girl has no structure in her life. She does whatever she wants and is as bad as can be, misses school, doesn't clean, gets into trouble at school (when she actually attends), has no manners, and is plain rude and never gets reprimanded. I feel so bad for her because she has not learned how to grow up and mature because her mother never believed in disciplining her child (I don't mean physically just in general). You cannot rely on positive reinforcement and totally disregard negative behavior. I have found that the balance of both training techniques works best for my dog not just one and now he knows what is expected of him so I use corrections less and less and focus more on praise and building his confidence.

 

[Mordy]

I have to disagree. It does not work on every animal or human for that matter. For example I have a friend who has never been punished in her life or even yelled at, all her mom does is tell her how wonderful she is and she's perfect and blah, blah,blah and this girl has no structure in her life. She does whatever she wants and is as bad as can be, misses school, doesn't clean, gets into trouble at school (when she actually attends), has no manners, and is plain rude and never gets reprimanded. I feel so bad for her because she has not learned how to grow up and mature because her mother never believed in disciplining her child (I don't mean physically just in general). You cannot rely on positive reinforcement and totally disregard negative behavior. I have found that the balance of both training techniques works best for my dog not just one and now he knows what is expected of him so I use corrections less and less and focus more on praise and building his confidence.

Again, these are the results of incorrect implementation. If your friend had been motivated correctly to do what she was expected to do, she would have found it rewarding enough to do it.

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, positive training does not mean that you just constantly tell your dog how wonderful it is and don't give it any structure in its life. Far from it. Read some books on the topic and maybe visit some seminars to get an idea about how to use these methods properly.

You may disagree that it "doesn't work" for all people/animals, but it is a scientifically proven fact that it does. Just as a partial example you might want to actually take the time and read this site:

http://www.wagntrain.com/OC/

 

[Dobiegurl]

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, positive training does not mean that you just constantly tell your dog how wonderful it is and don't give it any structure in its life. Far from it. Read some books on the topic and maybe visit some seminars to get an idea about how to use these methods properly.

(I posted something earlier but it got erased so here are the main points I made in the other one, I am so mad that it was erased, oh well)

Well thats what I percieve "positive training", just praise nothing else. It may not be the definition of it but that is where I think we had a miscomunication. I have a very open mind about it and will read the website you provided me with. I will try to get a better understanding of the whole concept. Sorry if I sounded defensive but I just get really irritated when people like at pet stores and stuff always judge me for putting a prong on my dog. The technique I used with my dog worked miracles on him but I know everdog will not respond to that.

 

[amymarley]

I don't think you nor anyone else posted anything wrong here. The bottom line is, whatever you and your trainer is doing is not working. The only thing I can really contribute, which is hard, is to involve one or two more trainers for a consult. We ALL know that every trainer is going to give a different answer, most of the time. Every trainer is a bit "sensitive" on training. I know when I first started and really got the hang of things, there were still problems.

I had a show with 4 "real" trainers... if none of us could figure it out, we would all consult each other. Just like brainstorming...it was wonderful. Now, with years under my belt, I rarely, if ever need any advice (only because it took me a long time, blood , sweat and tears) to get me where I am now. Sometimes when us trainers would brainstorm, it would be a real challenge and sometimes, it was really easy, right under our noses.

The same goes with human medical advice, there is no hurt in getting a second opinion.

Good luck with you and your pup.
Amy