Shutzhund/Personal protection trainers

[JennSLK]

I am THINKING (just thinking) of putting my Dobe into shutzhund or personal protection training. I dont really know anything about it, so I am looking for more info first.

Now if the dog was a show dog is it OK to train them in Shutzhund, or would they attack a judge?


Are they're good trainers near Calgary? The only ones I kow of are the GSD club in Edmonton.

 

[shepluvr]

a well trained schutzhund dog knows when to "turn it on". They should know when it is appropriate to attack, and when it is not.

 

[joce]

If you want to do it maybe try a diffrent breed. You can use a dobe but a trainer will more than likely tell you it will ruin your dogs natural ability to discern who is good/bad or what they should do.A dobe should have it all built into them naturally. My trainer was going to use my boy as a demo dog but we had an incedent were he picked out the bad guy and got him away all on his own and we deceided it wasn't worth confusing him when he already knows what he is doing.

That said I know some great dobes in schutzand. It really all depends on the dog. And the one I know of is in schutzand and being shown so it is more than possible.

A well trained schutzand dog will only do something when told and that is why its not said to be the best thing for dobes. I talked to the guy that does the training with the police dogs and he said its happened that a handler can't get a signal or command out and the dog jsut sits there while they get beat up.

 

[JennSLK]

thank you. It's something to think about. It's something I want to get into lightly.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

A properly trained dog will NOT lose it's ability to determine what is and is not a threat under SchH training.

This was originally devised as a TEMPERAMENT TEST for the German Shepherd dog.

SchH is not just about bite work. It's about correct strong temperament, and the total dog.

The SchH bitework is very regimented. The dog must learn not to touch the agitator unless there is a threat. They are not to bite a person standing still. They are to release on command.

Dogs must also track and do obedience to earn a SchH title, and all 3 tests, tracking, obedience, and manwork, must be done and passed on the same day.

SchH training is a very good way to learn about dogs and dog training in general.

JENN, I would urge you to do a lot of research on this subject before you decide yes or no on doing this sort of training with your future dog.

I have had many dogs who were PP trained, and I own one bitch now who has her IPO1 title. They have certainly not been any more dangerous or more likely to respond in an inappropriate way to a non threatening stranger.

In fact I found exactly the opposite. A dog who clearly understood what constituted a threat and what did not.

Any dog who would feel a need to overtly threaten a judge in the show ring IMO does not have a correct temperament, barring certain breeds bred to be indiscriminately aggressive towards strangers such as the Fila Brasileiro.

 

[Barb04]

RedyreRottweilers that was well said. We are in the process of preparing our pup to do personal protection work. I do agree with you that it gives them stability. I didn't understand a dog that does protection/shutzhund work until I started getting involved with this pup, other people who do this type of training, trainers, and breeders.

I agree the best thing is to speak to knowledgeable people to make a decision if this is right for you and your dog.

 

[Dobiegurl]

Shutzhund is a very disciplined sport and not all dogs are cut out for it. It involves a lot of stress on the dog and if they have weak nerves than they will be pushed into avoidance very early in their training. It does not in any way take away their ability to sense and react to a threat. The dog must know when to out and are not agressive dogs just pushed to the point of defending themselves. It takes alot of work to train a dog for that sport but it looks very interesting and when I grow up I plan on participating in Schutzhund. Just talk to some experienced handlers and helpers and you can also go to leerburg. com. He gives great advice on drive work and training for bite work.

 

[RedyreRottweilers]

Leerburg?????



SchH training has changed a lot in recent years. While it used to be almost exclusively dogs trained with compulsion and working off defense, many more people now train dogs using much more prey drive and positive reinforcement.

Gottfried Dildei has some good information in print.

 

[IliamnasQuest]

Please PLEASE avoid the leerburg page!!

He uses some extremely harsh techniques. Not only that, but he has extreme bias towards some breeds (like the chows). The man is very misguided and unfortunately misguides others along the way. There are MUCH better ways to train. Find a trainer who truly believes in positive training (they avoid the use of punishment). Your dog will thank you.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

 

[Dobiegurl]

Please PLEASE avoid the leerburg page!!

He uses some extremely harsh techniques. Not only that, but he has extreme bias towards some breeds (like the chows). The man is very misguided and unfortunately misguides others along the way. There are MUCH better ways to train. Find a trainer who truly believes in positive training (they avoid the use of punishment). Your dog will thank you.

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

I wasn't refferring to the actual training methods. I was just saying that there are good articles about drives and you really should have a good understanding about drives before you begin any for of protection work. He does not have harsh training techniques I would say firm, big difference. He believes in both positive and negative training but he even said it himself that he only corrects once the dog knows what is expected of him. That is whats wrong with most dogs today. No one believes in correcting a dog and only wants to use praise and food. Some dogs need firm, not harsh, owners/trainers. When Chico does what is expected of him he gets rewarded, if he acts out he get corrected. He still has his self confidence and pride but he knows if he does wrong he gets corrected and vice versa. People have big "aggressive" (or so they are deemed) and don't use any form of correction. I know if I did that with Chico he would have the run of the house. He still gets in my face sometimes and barks constantly and I tell him to down and if he doesn't listen to me I correct him down. I have my dog under control at all times and he does get corrected, its a part of life. If he was in the wild his mother would correct him far worse than I would. People need to stop thinking its cruel to correct because some dogs take advantage of the positive training methods only. In most working dogs it states in the breed description that they need firm owners. I bet if everyone took control of there dog the number of dog bites would decrease tremendously and BSL would stop. I do not blame all owners for their dogs "turning" and biting someone but some can be avoided by firm, yet loving, handling. Working breeds are not a joke especially ones trained in protection. One wrong move and its pretty much over. Those dogs need to know whos in charge and as I mentioned before those dogs are no joke and protection work is very intense stuff, not something to be taken lightly.

 

[Gempress]

While he does have good understanding of prey drive, etc., I don't like some of Leerburg's methods. I've read through many articles on his website. His training ideas include.

-With a jumping dog, "pinch the toes until they scream".
-For stubborn dogs, sharpening the prongs on a prong collar.
-To get a faster down, hit the dog between the shoulder blades.
-To stop dogs from fence-fighting, hit them on the head with a broomstick.
-And with an aggressive dog, hold it off the ground with a slip collar and choke it until it passes out.

And no, I don't use positive methods only. I also correct my dog with a prong collar. It's not cruel to correct. But some of his methods are waaay to harsh for my liking.

 

[Dobiegurl]

While he does have good understanding of prey drive, etc., I don't like some of Leerburg's methods. I've read through many articles on his website. His training ideas include.

-With a jumping dog, "pinch the toes until they scream".
-For stubborn dogs, sharpening the prongs on a prong collar.
-To get a faster down, hit the dog between the shoulder blades.
-To stop dogs from fence-fighting, hit them on the head with a broomstick.
-And with an aggressive dog, hold it off the ground with a slip collar and choke it until it passes out.
And no, I don't use positive methods only. I also correct my dog with a prong collar. It's not cruel to correct. But some of his methods are waaay to harsh for my liking.

Ok, that is harsh training, I guess I missed that part. But some owners are way to easy on their dogs and their dogs will take control of them. There needs to be a midpoint, not as drastic as Ed Frawley but not only relying on positive training methods.

 

[RD]

Ok, that is harsh training, I guess I missed that part. But some owners are way to easy on their dogs and their dogs will take control of them. There needs to be a midpoint, not as drastic as Ed Frawley but not only relying on positive training methods.

Why not? If it works, is humane and the dog enjoys it, do it. I don't understand the belief that handlers HAVE to use punishment in training, even when it is totally inappropriate for the situation.
I'm with Gempress. I've learned a bit from Ed Frawley's website but some of what I see him suggest can only be defined as cruelty. I wouldn't trust that guy as far as I could throw him.

 

[BigDog2191]

Punishment is a great tool when it's used appropriately. Ed Frawley, in my opinion, is a good trainer. From what I've seen at his website though, he seems to think punishment and harsh methods (which there is really nothing wrong with) is the only way to go. And I completely disagree; every dog will respond differently to a different type of method. You need to find what works for your dog and use it.

But if you get a positive reaction from purely positive reinforcement, you should keep it. If you feel your dog needs punishment, do so, but do so appropriately.

If you know your dog, you'll pick up quickly on how he responds.

 

[Gempress]

From what I've seen at his website though, he seems to think punishment and harsh methods (which there is really nothing wrong with) is the only way to go.

Sorry, but I've got to disagree with you. I see something very wrong with choking dogs until they go unconscious.

But I do agree with your view on positive reinforcement. There's nothing wrong with using correction. But if positive reinforcement works wonderfully on your dog, I don't see a reason to start using correction "just because".

 

[Serena]

I have zero respect for Ed Frawley...

There is a huge difference between a harsh correction and downright abusing the animal..

and don't even get me started on his breeding "ethics"..

From the website:

My name is Ed Frawley, I own Leerburg Video and Kennel. I breed German Shepherds and produce dog training videos for a living.

 

[Zoom]

I somewhat agree with some of the basic ideas he has, i.e. establishing yourself as Top Dog and not letting your dog run the show, but past that, no thanks. I quit 'listening' to him when he advised someone to beat the crap out of their dog for jumping, including kicking them in the butt when they were down on the ground whimpering from the knee in the chest.

I do understand that he works with extremely high-drive GSD's and probably for so long that he's forgotten not every dog has to be almost killed in order for it to respect you.

As far as Shutzhund for "Jazz", I'd find a good trainer who will tell you if your dog has the right temperment for it to begin with.

 

[JennSLK]

Thanx guys. Im still not sure yet. Between Agility and show training, i might be too much. I am going to wait untill she is done her showing to start with competitive obediance, maybe I will wait till then to do Shutzhund.

It's not something I want to take lightly.

I might even wait and get a working Dobe and train her in Shutzhund and leave Jazz alone.

Im still colecting info. I understand basicly what it is, but Im not sure if it;s something I want to get into.

 

[tessa_s212]

he seems to think punishment and harsh methods (which there is really nothing wrong with) is the only way to go.

harsh

1.Unpleasantly coarse and rough to the touch. See Synonyms at rough.
2.Disagreeable to the senses, especially to the sense of hearing.
3.Severe, cruel, or exacting harsh punishment; a harsh overseer
4.Unpleasant or uncomfortable: a harsh wilderness.

Harsh methods have nothing wrong with them? Being severe or cruel towards your dog in training is perfectly fine?

 

[BigDog2191]

harsh

1.Unpleasantly coarse and rough to the touch. See Synonyms at rough.
2.Disagreeable to the senses, especially to the sense of hearing.
3.Severe, cruel, or exacting harsh punishment; a harsh overseer
4.Unpleasant or uncomfortable: a harsh wilderness.

Harsh methods have nothing wrong with them? Being severe or cruel towards your dog in training is perfectly fine?

What qualifies as being severe or cruel? To you, that may be a choke chain or a prong collar. Which, yes, I believe is perfectly fine. You see that 'unpleasant and comfortable' as the 4th definition? That's what I meant. When I say 'harsh', I mean the use of punishment. And punishment is -supposed- to be 'unpleasant and uncomfortable'.