Shutzhund/Personal protection trainers
- Thread starter JennSLK
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D
I never said Chico wasn't trained. He is very obedient and is training to become my mother's service animal. We worked through every problem he's had and came up with a solution. I found the technique that worked for me and my dog and he turned out fine. I was just simply making the point that all dogs are different and do not respond to the same thing. Like me for example. All my mom had to do to punish my sister was take away the T.V or something and she would be straight, but I could care less about that stuff and I was hard headed so my mom had to pull out the switch and thats how she disciplined me. She knew that just taking the TV away from me would not bother me one bit and that was the only way to get through to me (please don't get the idea that I had to whoop chico, one thing I learned as a child was to NEVER hit a dog, I remember I got whooped for that too).
I just don't believe everydog can and will respond to one training technique. Just like kids, when their good you praise them and when there bad and already know what is expected of them then you correct them.
Chico is very obedient, and has come a long way since I got him. We have a bond that nobody can touch and we are in sync with each other. I can read him like a book and same for him. He can anticipate what I want from him without even giving him a command. This is just the first year of his life and I plan on strenghtening our bond and making him the best dog he can be.
I just don't believe everydog can and will respond to one training technique. Just like kids, when their good you praise them and when there bad and already know what is expected of them then you correct them.
Chico is very obedient, and has come a long way since I got him. We have a bond that nobody can touch and we are in sync with each other. I can read him like a book and same for him. He can anticipate what I want from him without even giving him a command. This is just the first year of his life and I plan on strenghtening our bond and making him the best dog he can be.
Just my own belief.... I think you are wrong... wether you are working with a dog, another animal or even a disabled human, they can learn. You can have your beliefs, and that is your right, but I trained hundreds of dogs with massive "issues" and every single one has come around with flying colors. But, then again, that was my job, and I have the inspiration for it.
I am nothing else but a trainer... I am not a banker, a mechanic, a car salesman etc...therefore, I know nothing else. If you were a TRUE trainer, then your remark would sound ridiculous. Of course every animal can learn. Give your dog some credit. To be honest, most of the time, it's not the dog, but the owner who is set in his/her own ways and does not train in a proper fashion.
Every person, animal or dog WILL respond to something, the hard part is finding out what it is. That is why I take my animal training so seriously, you have to find that ONE trigger that will make your buddy respond. I know you are prob. rolling your eyes, but again after so many animals that I have trained and trained well, with positive reinforcement.... well I am just a bit cocky...lol
When, and if I do find a dog/animal (since I don't just specialize with dogs, but all animals) that I can not train in any certain way,I will post it here. As of yet, it has not happened.
The thing here is there are sooooo many people, and this is a dog forum, where as I, specialize in all types of animals. Most people here are just dog lovers who are trying the best they can to train their dogs.
I do this for a living. If you need help, then this is the place to be, people love their dogs here and will help in any way they can.
And if you still think it's BS, then I invite you (very friendly) to come to Reno, you pay your way and I will train your dog for free, with you there. I only say this, or will do this, because I don't want owners to be discouraged or feel that their dog is not living up to the potential they need or deserve.
Amy
I am nothing else but a trainer... I am not a banker, a mechanic, a car salesman etc...therefore, I know nothing else. If you were a TRUE trainer, then your remark would sound ridiculous. Of course every animal can learn. Give your dog some credit. To be honest, most of the time, it's not the dog, but the owner who is set in his/her own ways and does not train in a proper fashion.
Every person, animal or dog WILL respond to something, the hard part is finding out what it is. That is why I take my animal training so seriously, you have to find that ONE trigger that will make your buddy respond. I know you are prob. rolling your eyes, but again after so many animals that I have trained and trained well, with positive reinforcement.... well I am just a bit cocky...lol
When, and if I do find a dog/animal (since I don't just specialize with dogs, but all animals) that I can not train in any certain way,I will post it here. As of yet, it has not happened.
The thing here is there are sooooo many people, and this is a dog forum, where as I, specialize in all types of animals. Most people here are just dog lovers who are trying the best they can to train their dogs.
I do this for a living. If you need help, then this is the place to be, people love their dogs here and will help in any way they can.
And if you still think it's BS, then I invite you (very friendly) to come to Reno, you pay your way and I will train your dog for free, with you there. I only say this, or will do this, because I don't want owners to be discouraged or feel that their dog is not living up to the potential they need or deserve.
Amy
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D
I don't think thats what she meant. I think she meant that all dogs will not respond to the same exact things as other dogs and you have to find the best way to get a response out of your dog. What works for one dog may not work for a different dog. Some will not respond with corrections, some won't respond to the food or toy. Its all based on your dogs williness to do something for praise or whatever. No two dogs are the same thats all I'm trying to say and for saying that every dog should respond to the same technique is insane because they are all individuals. And she never said they COULDN'T learn just didn't respond to a certain technique and thats where the owner and trainer come in to try to fix or find a better way to get through to the dog. Any dog can be trained and I do believe it's the owners fault for not taking time to train the dog. There are many different ways to train your dog you just have to find the one that works for your dog.
No, re-read what she said....
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Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS.
That is what she said......
Of COURSE SOMETHING WILL work on EVERY dog, that is not BS. You just have to know what WILL work for your dog.
The above statement she posted, in her own words, is soooo wrong. I don't know any other way to take it.
Re-read her first sentance...
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Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS.
That is what she said......
Of COURSE SOMETHING WILL work on EVERY dog, that is not BS. You just have to know what WILL work for your dog.
The above statement she posted, in her own words, is soooo wrong. I don't know any other way to take it.
Re-read her first sentance...
No, and not to start a war...
she says ...".Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS."
Therefore she is saying "something" regardless what it is, will NOT work on EVERY dog is BS. I disagree.
Of course "something" will work on any dog. I understood her statement, as she posted it. If she meant something different, than I understand. But as it stands, that is what she posted, loud and clear.
she says ...".Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS."
Therefore she is saying "something" regardless what it is, will NOT work on EVERY dog is BS. I disagree.
Of course "something" will work on any dog. I understood her statement, as she posted it. If she meant something different, than I understand. But as it stands, that is what she posted, loud and clear.
No, and not to start a war...
she says ...".Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS."
Therefore she is saying "something" regardless what it is, will NOT work on EVERY dog is BS. I disagree.
She is not stating the fact you posted above, again re-read her first line.
Of course "something" will work on any dog. I understood her statement, as she posted it. If she meant something different, than I understand. But as it stands, that is what she posted, loud and clear.
she says ...".Personally I think saying something will work on EVERY dog is BS."
Therefore she is saying "something" regardless what it is, will NOT work on EVERY dog is BS. I disagree.
She is not stating the fact you posted above, again re-read her first line.
Of course "something" will work on any dog. I understood her statement, as she posted it. If she meant something different, than I understand. But as it stands, that is what she posted, loud and clear.
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Let me quote to you from the leerburg site on his opinion of chows:
"This eye contact concept may work but only if you get eye contact by helicoptering this dog in a 380 degree circle about 3 feet off the ground - he will be looking directly into your eyes and know for sure that you are pissed off at what he is doing. "
He also believes in not socializing dogs, and in using a prong collar roughly on fearful dogs. He's is NOT a good trainer in my opinion and is a detriment to good dogs everywhere. I'm appalled that people actually believe in his training methods. He's primarily a Koehler-type, and Koehler was willing to stick a dog's head under water to "teach it" not to dig.
Frawley wouldn't be able to train a dog without force. He's just not capable of understanding dog behavior, from everything I've read on his site. He believes that a dog should mind because of fear of consequences (much like you appear to) and not because a person gained an understanding of what the dog needs and is working with the dog instead of against it.
People who train their dogs with force will never - and I can say this unequivocably after 17 years of training, teaching classes, and doing behavior consultations - have as good a relationship with their dog as those who train with understanding and care. The sad thing is, they truly do think they have a great relationship and won't understand the difference until they change their training methods.
Is there a place for a correction? Sure, I think there is. But NOT in the training stages, and NOT unless the dog understands 100% why the correction happened. Using a prong collar as a training collar is a cop-out .. cartwheeling a dog around you because you don't have a clue as to how to deal with it is animal cruelty.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
"This eye contact concept may work but only if you get eye contact by helicoptering this dog in a 380 degree circle about 3 feet off the ground - he will be looking directly into your eyes and know for sure that you are pissed off at what he is doing. "
He also believes in not socializing dogs, and in using a prong collar roughly on fearful dogs. He's is NOT a good trainer in my opinion and is a detriment to good dogs everywhere. I'm appalled that people actually believe in his training methods. He's primarily a Koehler-type, and Koehler was willing to stick a dog's head under water to "teach it" not to dig.
Frawley wouldn't be able to train a dog without force. He's just not capable of understanding dog behavior, from everything I've read on his site. He believes that a dog should mind because of fear of consequences (much like you appear to) and not because a person gained an understanding of what the dog needs and is working with the dog instead of against it.
People who train their dogs with force will never - and I can say this unequivocably after 17 years of training, teaching classes, and doing behavior consultations - have as good a relationship with their dog as those who train with understanding and care. The sad thing is, they truly do think they have a great relationship and won't understand the difference until they change their training methods.
Is there a place for a correction? Sure, I think there is. But NOT in the training stages, and NOT unless the dog understands 100% why the correction happened. Using a prong collar as a training collar is a cop-out .. cartwheeling a dog around you because you don't have a clue as to how to deal with it is animal cruelty.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
R
I so completely agree with your post, Melanie.
It is amazing how many people feel that you are allowing your dogs to run the show by using positive methods to train.
On another forum, I was vilified, poo pooed, and generally flamed for INSISTING that you should not put a prong collar on a dog and correct it harshly for a minor food bowl guarding/growling issue.
I recommended the usual. Put the bowl away, hand feed for a period, put the bowl back down, feed in bowl by handful for a period, inserting tasty treats now and then, and when you get the bowl back on the floor, dropping tasties in it as the dog is eating.
This was a PUG for crying out loud, and many people felt the dog should be corrected on a collar until it dared not growl over it's food.
Ridiculous.
It is amazing how many people feel that you are allowing your dogs to run the show by using positive methods to train.
On another forum, I was vilified, poo pooed, and generally flamed for INSISTING that you should not put a prong collar on a dog and correct it harshly for a minor food bowl guarding/growling issue.
I recommended the usual. Put the bowl away, hand feed for a period, put the bowl back down, feed in bowl by handful for a period, inserting tasty treats now and then, and when you get the bowl back on the floor, dropping tasties in it as the dog is eating.
This was a PUG for crying out loud, and many people felt the dog should be corrected on a collar until it dared not growl over it's food.
Ridiculous.
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Hi Red -
I'm on a very active German shepherd board, too, and it seems that nearly every problem posted gets answered by people saying "put a prong collar on your dog!". I don't quite understand why people insist on using pain to train, when there are ways to do it without pain. And I've found that a good number of those promoting the prong now have dogs that they can't handle without a prong collar. You probably get as frustrated as I do in dealing with some of those people.
My goal is always to have a dog that responds to me with NO collar, so I use the least amount of collar possible to start with. I actually prefer to start off-leash and that's how I train my dogs to heel. It makes ME work harder and makes me truly understand what motivates my dog - but it builds an incredible relationship with trust as the main component.
Not only that, but it's fascinating to watch my dogs and figure out what makes them tick! I can stand there for hours just watching them interact with each other. I want to understand them, not just force them to mind.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
I'm on a very active German shepherd board, too, and it seems that nearly every problem posted gets answered by people saying "put a prong collar on your dog!". I don't quite understand why people insist on using pain to train, when there are ways to do it without pain. And I've found that a good number of those promoting the prong now have dogs that they can't handle without a prong collar. You probably get as frustrated as I do in dealing with some of those people.
My goal is always to have a dog that responds to me with NO collar, so I use the least amount of collar possible to start with. I actually prefer to start off-leash and that's how I train my dogs to heel. It makes ME work harder and makes me truly understand what motivates my dog - but it builds an incredible relationship with trust as the main component.
Not only that, but it's fascinating to watch my dogs and figure out what makes them tick! I can stand there for hours just watching them interact with each other. I want to understand them, not just force them to mind.
Melanie and the gang in Alaska
R
I use a prong. I use it to polish heeling and attention, mostly because I can use very small movements if I need to correct, and the collar stays where it's supposed to.
I show in obedience with a buckle collar.
I am the absolute alpha here, but I don't need a pinch collar, or shouting, or alpha rolls to maintain my position.
It's an indication to me of a person who cannot learn and grow who clings to older correction based training methods when there are better MUCH MORE FUN WAYS to teach/train dogs.
I show in obedience with a buckle collar.
I am the absolute alpha here, but I don't need a pinch collar, or shouting, or alpha rolls to maintain my position.
It's an indication to me of a person who cannot learn and grow who clings to older correction based training methods when there are better MUCH MORE FUN WAYS to teach/train dogs.
D
That may be true for some dogs but alot of dogs do fine when taken of the prong. When I took Chico of the prong he was fine. He listens to me both on leash and off leash. I can call him from anywhere and he will come running. It all depends on how you use the prong. The prong is not to be used harshly. I rarely tugged it, just when he got really out of hand and when we trained at home I used his buckle collar. It was just in public and when people came over when I put the prong on because he used to get too excited around people and once he realized he could'nt jump I started using a martingale in public. The thing with the prong is that you need to switch it up. One day use the buckle collar, then the next day the martingale, and so on. I only used the prong when necessary, usually when he got too hyper. I don't use the prong now, unless extremely necessary. We just went to a dog show and he was on his buckle collar all day and never left my side. That was the first Dog Show he has ever been too and he behaved on the buckle even though I know he wanted to play with the other dogs. It is posible to change a dog from a prong to a different type of collar. And prongs are not bad but people believe that they will fix any problem but that is far from the truth, some problems will not be fixed by pinching them. I will still use prongs on my future dogs but I will not use it their whole lives. I see nothing wrong with prong collars.