I know that with the pack mentality, the alpha leads the pack, but i also know that if the alpha needs help fighting something off, everyone gives him a hand. So I think simply having a fierce-looking dog or a big dog would be an effective deterrent. It's important that the dog be well trained and understand the word no. If you take this dog with you everywhere, he'll protect you if someone attacks.
Protection training.
- Thread starter mrose_s
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protection freaks
Protection training is not done by schutzhund clubs for that purpose it is for sport only . If you feel that you need a dog for protection . Most dog owners feel that just a dog by their side is enough deterrant from harm . It is stess ful for a dog to have to feel it must protect . Why would you want to put a dog in that position or frame of mind.Not a good human companion for a dog
Protection training is not done by schutzhund clubs for that purpose it is for sport only . If you feel that you need a dog for protection . Most dog owners feel that just a dog by their side is enough deterrant from harm . It is stess ful for a dog to have to feel it must protect . Why would you want to put a dog in that position or frame of mind.Not a good human companion for a dog
There's nothing at all wrong with wanting a dog that would defend you. Most protection dogs never really prove their worth, but better to have the extra safety and not need it, than need it and not have it. A lot of dogs have a great desire to guard their home and family.
I was considering making another thread but since this one got bumped, I'll ask here.
Zaphod is very protective, both of me and my home. He seems to have a sound temperament, though he's been undersocialized.
Once he's older, I want to train him to call off an attack (attack sounds harsh but "reaction" isn't quite strong enough) but I don't necessarily want to train him to attack. I already know he'll react to what he percieves as a threat.
I can't safely mimic a threatening situation at home, and I want to proof his recall or down under a situation involving a "threat". That's the one situation in which Dakota has no recall, and it disturbs me enough with Dakota - Zaphod will likely be 3 times Dakota's size at adulthood. I'd like to be able to just work on an emergency recall with him and hope it would work if he was ever reacting to a percieved threat, but I don't fully trust him to respond under a new and intense distraction like a seemingly hostile person.
Would a protection trainer be of any use to us? Any advice would be appreciated. I'd like to let him be the guardian he wants to be, but I want him to be well trained and safe, too.
I was considering making another thread but since this one got bumped, I'll ask here.
Zaphod is very protective, both of me and my home. He seems to have a sound temperament, though he's been undersocialized.
Once he's older, I want to train him to call off an attack (attack sounds harsh but "reaction" isn't quite strong enough) but I don't necessarily want to train him to attack. I already know he'll react to what he percieves as a threat.
I can't safely mimic a threatening situation at home, and I want to proof his recall or down under a situation involving a "threat". That's the one situation in which Dakota has no recall, and it disturbs me enough with Dakota - Zaphod will likely be 3 times Dakota's size at adulthood. I'd like to be able to just work on an emergency recall with him and hope it would work if he was ever reacting to a percieved threat, but I don't fully trust him to respond under a new and intense distraction like a seemingly hostile person.
Would a protection trainer be of any use to us? Any advice would be appreciated. I'd like to let him be the guardian he wants to be, but I want him to be well trained and safe, too.
IMO, the whole point of PP training is for control, not necessarily teching a dog to attack (yeah they learn to target and grip but control is most important). PP training does not make a dog more agressive or on egde. its for you and your do to train as a team and gain control and respect (on both ends). If your dog has it in him to protect, then I would rather train him in personal protection rather than having a "loose cannon" if the time comes where he might need to protect you.
This is a common idea, and I think it makes everyone feel safer at night with their dogs. But the reality is, most dogs will not bite a person, even if their owner is being attacked. My friend Jason was attacked by an intruder in his own home while sleeping. I asked where his Belgian Malinois was and he said he didn't know, he found her when the ambulance came for him. Yes, Belgian Malinois, you know, the police dogs. And the dog came from good working lines. But she was a house pet with no training for protection. This sort of thing happens all the time, but you mostly hear about the dogs who do rise the the occasion and bite.
I have also been attacked and had a dog stand there and watch. On the other hand, I was threatened by a drugged out freak one night and my wimpy 6 month old female malinois went out to the end of the leash and barked at the guy, scaring him off. I would never trust this wimpy dog to protect me if the going got tough, but in this instance her bark was enough and she looked like a hero to me. My male is very confident and trained for protection, but no one has ever attacked me with him on the end of my leash. Maybe he would stand there and look. It's hard to know until it happens. If it was easy, the police would just pick dogs from the shelter for $75 a head and wait on the instincts to kick in. The reality is, they spend thousands of dollars per dog and invest thousands more in training time and the dogs still do not always bite when they should.
Schutzhund training is not all about making dogs mean. It depends on who is training it and how, but generally Schutzhund training is about taking a dog with natural aggression and teaching them when and how to use it within the context of a game. Kind of like teaching a kid to box so that if he is attacked on the street he has some chance to know what to do.
The right Schutzhund training will often make a dog much less dangerous than he was before training, bc there is so much emphasis on control and responding to appropriate signals that mean "now is the time to bite". The dogs learn to control themselves and wait for an overt attack or signal from the owner to bite. Then they release on command and return to the owner on command.
This kind of training might be great for Zaphod and the original dog in this thread. You would want to look for a trainer who teaches protection primarily as a fun game for the dog. The sleeve is a toy that he uses as a way to play with the "helper". There are rules to the game and he must obey these rules. Teaching the rules in this exciting, but fun, context will give you lots of chances to work on control around strong distractions, which should help you to achieve control in other more real situations.
Training that stresses the dog to make him aggressive towards the person is probably not something most of us want or need. So, if the protection training seems "for real" and not primarily a game for the dog, then this might not be the sort of thing you should pursue. Some trainers, more often the old-style types, really try to make the dogs angry, threatening them, even whipping them to encourage aggression. If this is what is going on at your local club, you'd be better off not participating.
Even if you decide not to do the protection, you may be able to work on any dog aggression problems at the Schutzhund club. In the obedience phase, Schutzhund dogs work on a field together, so even the dogs that are not friendly must be under control. The people at the club probably also have some experience teaching a dog to down stay while they chase off stray dogs. That's what I do and I have always been able to chase off the strays while my dog stays down behind me. Of course, first you need that reliable down- it's no good if he joins in on the chase :yikes:
I have also been attacked and had a dog stand there and watch. On the other hand, I was threatened by a drugged out freak one night and my wimpy 6 month old female malinois went out to the end of the leash and barked at the guy, scaring him off. I would never trust this wimpy dog to protect me if the going got tough, but in this instance her bark was enough and she looked like a hero to me. My male is very confident and trained for protection, but no one has ever attacked me with him on the end of my leash. Maybe he would stand there and look. It's hard to know until it happens. If it was easy, the police would just pick dogs from the shelter for $75 a head and wait on the instincts to kick in. The reality is, they spend thousands of dollars per dog and invest thousands more in training time and the dogs still do not always bite when they should.
Schutzhund training is not all about making dogs mean. It depends on who is training it and how, but generally Schutzhund training is about taking a dog with natural aggression and teaching them when and how to use it within the context of a game. Kind of like teaching a kid to box so that if he is attacked on the street he has some chance to know what to do.
The right Schutzhund training will often make a dog much less dangerous than he was before training, bc there is so much emphasis on control and responding to appropriate signals that mean "now is the time to bite". The dogs learn to control themselves and wait for an overt attack or signal from the owner to bite. Then they release on command and return to the owner on command.
This kind of training might be great for Zaphod and the original dog in this thread. You would want to look for a trainer who teaches protection primarily as a fun game for the dog. The sleeve is a toy that he uses as a way to play with the "helper". There are rules to the game and he must obey these rules. Teaching the rules in this exciting, but fun, context will give you lots of chances to work on control around strong distractions, which should help you to achieve control in other more real situations.
Training that stresses the dog to make him aggressive towards the person is probably not something most of us want or need. So, if the protection training seems "for real" and not primarily a game for the dog, then this might not be the sort of thing you should pursue. Some trainers, more often the old-style types, really try to make the dogs angry, threatening them, even whipping them to encourage aggression. If this is what is going on at your local club, you'd be better off not participating.
Even if you decide not to do the protection, you may be able to work on any dog aggression problems at the Schutzhund club. In the obedience phase, Schutzhund dogs work on a field together, so even the dogs that are not friendly must be under control. The people at the club probably also have some experience teaching a dog to down stay while they chase off stray dogs. That's what I do and I have always been able to chase off the strays while my dog stays down behind me. Of course, first you need that reliable down- it's no good if he joins in on the chase :yikes:
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I saw this thread and wondered if it was the one I started then thought "no way, thats way too old" lol
Just for the record, I will never protection train Buster, he is way too unstable for anything like that, just working on his focussing skills now and getting rid of his reac tivness to other dogs, hopefully one day we'll do agility but thats about the extent of my aims with this little man.
Just for the record, I will never protection train Buster, he is way too unstable for anything like that, just working on his focussing skills now and getting rid of his reac tivness to other dogs, hopefully one day we'll do agility but thats about the extent of my aims with this little man.
Most dogs will protect you naturally when the chips are down. Sarama, though several incidents, has made it clear that if there was a threat to me, she'd defend me.
Another problem with protection training, if this matters to you, if that a dog with protection training is barred from therapy work.
IF he just needs a job, I'd say do agility . . . or therapy!
Another problem with protection training, if this matters to you, if that a dog with protection training is barred from therapy work.
IF he just needs a job, I'd say do agility . . . or therapy!
R
This is very important.
NEVER EVER be mistaken that a dog who postures and growls will rise to the occasion if it is a REAL confrontation. I can name 2 women right off the top of my head who were assaulted while their dogs (one a GSD one a Rottweiler) cowered in the next room or ran.
The VAST majority of dogs, while they may posture and present a front, if they are seriously confronted with a physically aggressive adult will break and run. If your dog has not been carefully trained on the protection field to fight with an aggressor, DO NOT mistakenly think the dog will defend you if the **** ever really gets deep.
Most people would be really surprised to see what their dog does when actually threatened close up by a real aggressor.
NEVER EVER be mistaken that a dog who postures and growls will rise to the occasion if it is a REAL confrontation. I can name 2 women right off the top of my head who were assaulted while their dogs (one a GSD one a Rottweiler) cowered in the next room or ran.
The VAST majority of dogs, while they may posture and present a front, if they are seriously confronted with a physically aggressive adult will break and run. If your dog has not been carefully trained on the protection field to fight with an aggressor, DO NOT mistakenly think the dog will defend you if the **** ever really gets deep.
Most people would be really surprised to see what their dog does when actually threatened close up by a real aggressor.
Thanks for your post, RedyreRottweilers. A lot of people believe their dog will protect them, but very few actually will. I have seen it with my own eyes and experienced it first hand. This is one of the reasons the working dog breeders (GSD, Rottie, Dobie, malinois, etc) in Europe continue to test all of their breeding stock in Schutzhund or other protection tests. Two courageous parents will still produce many offspring that do not have this courage, so each generation requires testing. I think it's because courage to fight a man is not a natural behavior for a dog. It takes strong breeding selection and then the proper training to produce dogs that are useful for real protection. Just compare an American show line GSD to a European working line GSD and you will see how different two dogs can be in this regard.
If you want a dog that really protects you, you have to start off with the right puppy and then raise and train him to understand and feel comfortable with his protection duties. Most people who say, "my dog will protect me" aren't doing any harm. But, if they put themselves into dangerous situations bc they really believe this, it could end really badly.
If you want a dog that really protects you, you have to start off with the right puppy and then raise and train him to understand and feel comfortable with his protection duties. Most people who say, "my dog will protect me" aren't doing any harm. But, if they put themselves into dangerous situations bc they really believe this, it could end really badly.
At our dog club we recently washed out a white GSD. He was not making any progress after 6 months. He would engage a decoy with a sleeve but wouldn't commit to the bite unless the decoy immediately slipped the sleeve. He never got any better than that. He was just as Red said in her post- posturing, barking, growling, but he wouldn't go after the decoy if the decoy put any defense on the dog. The trainers equated it to a 15 year old kid talking trash, and when it came time to put up or shut up, he ran. This dog would take a cheap bite, not because he wanted to engage/fight, but because he wanted you to go away. The owner didn't believe his dog didn't have what it took and was always trying to get the decoys to do things the dog wasn't even close to ready for, like putting on a full bite suit, wearing a "Jason" mask, stuff like that. The day they told him they weren't going to spend any more time on the dog, the owner got all irate and said how he knew his dog would proteact him. After a heated discussion, one of the trainers said go get him. I'm so confident he WON'T engage me, I'll stand here with no protection on, and you send him on me. The owner sent him, the trainer started yelling at the dog and acting menacing, ran at the dog, and chased it away. The dog never got within 20 yards of him. Then he took the owner, put him in a headlock and used a whip to kick up all kinds of dirt, simulating a fight. The dog didn't move. Instead, he started looking at the other trainer who was away from the conflict, and began to go towards him because he was less of a threat, until that trainer picked up a whip and sleeve and started cracking the whip. The dog ran away.
Chanda wrote "if ever you want to train your dog always keep in mind to get a qualified and reputable person you can find. you can also ask some friends if they know someone who can train your dog."
There is WAY more to it than that. Protection training isn't something you take a 2 or 3 month course on. It's an ongoing process that takes years. It's more of a lifestyle for you and your dog, something you are always working on. Your dog is never finished with this kind of training. There is always something new to learn and work on.
I'm learning there are so many things to work through with a dog in this type of training, mainly, that if your dog has the genetics to reach only a certain level, he'll never go past that point. Some dogs have it, some dogs don't, and there are varying degrees in between. Some dogs might never get past a sleeve. Some dogs might get on the bite suit and not be comfortable. Some dogs might be great on leg bites but not want to target higher frontal bites because of more eye contact and conflict with the decoy. Some might be fine on the suit as long as the decoy doesn't have a whip or clatter stick. I was told of a Sch3 dog that wouldn't engage a decoy in a suit, because all he knew was the sleeve. Every dog is different and all have their limits, even the best dog has a threshold for how far he'll go.
Chanda wrote "if ever you want to train your dog always keep in mind to get a qualified and reputable person you can find. you can also ask some friends if they know someone who can train your dog."
There is WAY more to it than that. Protection training isn't something you take a 2 or 3 month course on. It's an ongoing process that takes years. It's more of a lifestyle for you and your dog, something you are always working on. Your dog is never finished with this kind of training. There is always something new to learn and work on.
I'm learning there are so many things to work through with a dog in this type of training, mainly, that if your dog has the genetics to reach only a certain level, he'll never go past that point. Some dogs have it, some dogs don't, and there are varying degrees in between. Some dogs might never get past a sleeve. Some dogs might get on the bite suit and not be comfortable. Some dogs might be great on leg bites but not want to target higher frontal bites because of more eye contact and conflict with the decoy. Some might be fine on the suit as long as the decoy doesn't have a whip or clatter stick. I was told of a Sch3 dog that wouldn't engage a decoy in a suit, because all he knew was the sleeve. Every dog is different and all have their limits, even the best dog has a threshold for how far he'll go.
I wouldn't be surprised if Buster did protect me, but I won't say he definetly will.
I do believe Sophie would, she's defended us in dangerous situations before.
Buster would be great at agility, but his DA makes it almost impossible for him to focus, hopefully this will be the year I can get down to a behaviourist to atleast get a proffessional assessment of him.
Flyball I thought about but wouldn't trust him with close crossovers in high drive.
Therapy he wouldn't enjoy, he has 0 interest in anyone other than the 3 people he lives with.
Agility is the aim, (he weaved 6 poles in a row for the first time ever yesterday.) and we'll continue training at home until his DA is under control enough to attend classes and hopefully compete one day.
I do believe Sophie would, she's defended us in dangerous situations before.
Buster would be great at agility, but his DA makes it almost impossible for him to focus, hopefully this will be the year I can get down to a behaviourist to atleast get a proffessional assessment of him.
Flyball I thought about but wouldn't trust him with close crossovers in high drive.
Therapy he wouldn't enjoy, he has 0 interest in anyone other than the 3 people he lives with.
Agility is the aim, (he weaved 6 poles in a row for the first time ever yesterday.) and we'll continue training at home until his DA is under control enough to attend classes and hopefully compete one day.
Dan, Red, Sch3dana... how do you *tell* if your dog has the courage to confront and deal with an aggressor without actually testing them?
My fear is that Zaphod does have that courage, and I don't want him to hurt a person or another dog if he's mistaken about what is a threat and what is not - I want to be able to call him off, even if all he'll do to a person is what Dan describes - a cheap shot and a retreat. Even a cheap shot from a dog like him is not going to be harmless...
He's a mutt and will probably be a useless Schutzhund dog, but I want to have as much control over him as I can, no matter what drive is causing him to act in a protective manner. Do you think a protection trainer would work with me simply to help gain control of his responses? I know he's still his own being and will respond as such, but I would feel so much more comfortable letting him go places with me and letting him be present when I have visitors if I knew there was a chance I could call him off, should he decide to confront a supposed "threat"..
Boxer, I have a 40 pound Border Collie that saved me from a very dangerous situation when I was alone. I never thought he'd really protect - I knew he could possibly nip, posture and threaten, but didn't expect the bravery that he showed. He hasn't shown it since. While I think it's foolish to *expect* any dog to protect you, sometimes they'll surprise you. Were he larger and stronger, I'd trust Dakota with my life.
My fear is that Zaphod does have that courage, and I don't want him to hurt a person or another dog if he's mistaken about what is a threat and what is not - I want to be able to call him off, even if all he'll do to a person is what Dan describes - a cheap shot and a retreat. Even a cheap shot from a dog like him is not going to be harmless...
He's a mutt and will probably be a useless Schutzhund dog, but I want to have as much control over him as I can, no matter what drive is causing him to act in a protective manner. Do you think a protection trainer would work with me simply to help gain control of his responses? I know he's still his own being and will respond as such, but I would feel so much more comfortable letting him go places with me and letting him be present when I have visitors if I knew there was a chance I could call him off, should he decide to confront a supposed "threat"..
Boxer, I have a 40 pound Border Collie that saved me from a very dangerous situation when I was alone. I never thought he'd really protect - I knew he could possibly nip, posture and threaten, but didn't expect the bravery that he showed. He hasn't shown it since. While I think it's foolish to *expect* any dog to protect you, sometimes they'll surprise you. Were he larger and stronger, I'd trust Dakota with my life.
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I despise the term "washed out". At the place I used to train I have seen more than my fair share of dogs who were "washed out" by some of the country's most notable Sch trainers become some of the best police dogs out there when someone decided to apply more than a whip and an e-collar to their training.
If the dog wasn't cut out for bitework, then say it wasn't cut out for bitework. But frankly from what you described I bet that dog could easily be taught how to play the game (we are talking Sch here and not PP right?) and do so successfully. You don't have to apply defense to a dog who isn't ready for it. Build the dog first, then apply defense. Some dogs can be built for a week, others may need a year or two.
Sorry, there's just something about the term "washed out" that I find offensive and lazy. Many bitework people just seem to think that if the dog doesn't come out of the box perfect then it's useless. It ticks me off.
PS: Having trained mostly PP, but done some dabbling in FR and PSA (and having sat in on more than 11 Sch or Sch-style trainers while trying to find someone to train with) I can say that Personal Protection training is a great deal different than sport training.
If the dog wasn't cut out for bitework, then say it wasn't cut out for bitework. But frankly from what you described I bet that dog could easily be taught how to play the game (we are talking Sch here and not PP right?) and do so successfully. You don't have to apply defense to a dog who isn't ready for it. Build the dog first, then apply defense. Some dogs can be built for a week, others may need a year or two.
Sorry, there's just something about the term "washed out" that I find offensive and lazy. Many bitework people just seem to think that if the dog doesn't come out of the box perfect then it's useless. It ticks me off.
PS: Having trained mostly PP, but done some dabbling in FR and PSA (and having sat in on more than 11 Sch or Sch-style trainers while trying to find someone to train with) I can say that Personal Protection training is a great deal different than sport training.
I have a Sch titledable dog, but I never took it any further than that. I lost the time and the drive to finish him off, mostly because of the practices at the Sch club I went to. It took 'Pol a LOOONG time to turn onto the sleeve (two I think?) and right about the time that he did Id had enough, so we quit. He has the perfect temperment to do either Sch or PP, but I dont really feel the need to train him. He is confidant, assertive when he needs to be, aloof and drivey. He doesnt feel the need to start conflicts, but he is more than willing to finish them.
That being said, he has protected me once when I didnt even know I was in danger, and ignored me completely when I thought I was. He is eighty pounds of solid muscle with teeth as big around as my pinky, and almost as long as my thumb. People do cross the street to avoid having to walk next to them, even though all he'd do is sniff them, if that. Apollo loves who he loves, if youre one of his friends, he is more than happy to bring you his ball or stick, if not, he ignores you, or politely allows to you pet him. He isnt a fawning dog.
In my opinion, he really has one of the perfect temperments to use as a Personal Protection dog, but I think that he is perfectly capable, and more than willing to do anything required of him should someone threaten me. He is also a big lap dog with me and my SO. Just a big mush ball if you know him.
That being said, he has protected me once when I didnt even know I was in danger, and ignored me completely when I thought I was. He is eighty pounds of solid muscle with teeth as big around as my pinky, and almost as long as my thumb. People do cross the street to avoid having to walk next to them, even though all he'd do is sniff them, if that. Apollo loves who he loves, if youre one of his friends, he is more than happy to bring you his ball or stick, if not, he ignores you, or politely allows to you pet him. He isnt a fawning dog.
In my opinion, he really has one of the perfect temperments to use as a Personal Protection dog, but I think that he is perfectly capable, and more than willing to do anything required of him should someone threaten me. He is also a big lap dog with me and my SO. Just a big mush ball if you know him.