Protection training.

[DanL]

SisMorphine- we are talking PP, not Sch. The white GSD simply didn't have it. I've seen a half dozen dogs come to our club for evaluations, and only 1 has been accepted. GSDs, Rotties, Dobes, mixes of dogs that are working breeds, American Bulldogs. None of them had any kind of drive to work. No prey, no defense, nothing. Only the 1 Rottie, who is doing well in his training now.

With the white GSD, he was making NO progress. Even in Sch- he would fail the courage test where the decoy runs at the dog and handler. Forget about taking a love tap from the stick. In our training, if the decoy didn't slip the sleeve on him in 5 seconds, he'd come off the bite and look for a cheap shot. He had weak nerves and was a fear biter. That won't work in Sch and it will never work in PP. I'm not sure what term to use besides wash out, because that's what happened. This dog was 2 years old, so he was pretty mature, and the decoys never put any pressure on a dog that the dog can't handle. The owner was the one who kept trying to jump from step 1 to step 10, then go back to step 3, then to step 7, etc. He had no focus on the training. He'd see one of the advanced dogs doing something, and he wanted to do it too, instead of working the dog on a back tie or bungee and building his grip and confidence. He could be a nice dog in obedience or agility or something like that, but he isn't cut out for bite work.


RD, how old is this dog you are talking about? You can take him to a Sch or PP club and have him evaluated. They can tell if he's a fear biter or if he means business. Controlling a dog that means business is easier than a fear biter. It's all about obedience, and you know how to do that already.

 

[SisMorphine]

I mean, white GSDs in general are known to have some severe fear issues to begin with (why is that kids? Because duh-duh-duh! they were bred for color and color only!) and frankly I rarely see them able to be in public nevermind able to do a sport.

Ummm . . . I'm not sure what other term to use. Not cut out for the work? I'll have to think on it more. But "washed out" just irks me more than anything LOL!

 

[Sch3Dana]

Dan, Red, Sch3dana... how do you *tell* if your dog has the courage to confront and deal with an aggressor without actually testing them?

I don't think you ever know until you are actually in the situation. Every test only shows how the dog performs in the circumstances of that test, not all tests. But, there is a relationship between all the tests of your dog's courage, so that a dog that passes a Schutzhund test is more likely to protect you than the one that fails. And, any training that you do in PP or Schtuzhund will increase the chances that you and the dog do the right thing when you end up in a hairy situation. And that you will be able to control the dog if he reacts aggressively and you need to stop him or call him back.

Saying all of that, experienced dog people certainly get good at predicting which dogs will bite and when. No one is fool proof, but there are people out there who look at a dog walk around the dog field, say they will or won't work (without working them) and are right much more often than they are wrong.

 

[DanL]

Regarding the testing part- we hardly ever really test our dogs. Our club philosophy is that 99% of a dogs life should be training for the situation he might be put into. If you keep testing testing testing, the dog can get to the point where they say "why should I go down field and get my butt kicked by that decoy again?". So we keep it positive, allow the dog to totally dominate the decoys, and get so confident that when the real thing happens, they don't even think twice about it. It's like boxing or martial arts- you spend nearly all of your time training, and a small % of actually doing it for real.

 

[adojrts]

The owner was the one who kept trying to jump from step 1 to step 10, then go back to step 3, then to step 7, etc. He had no focus on the training. He'd see one of the advanced dogs doing something, and he wanted to do it too, instead of working the dog on a back tie or bungee and building his grip and confidence. He could be a nice dog in obedience or agility or something like that, but he isn't cut out for bite work.

QUOTE]

The dog maybe fine with doing something like agility but the owner wouldn't be. Poor training and unrealistic expectations always have the same results regardless of what sport or discipline that is being trained. These types of people want gratification NOW lol. They think solid foundation training is boring their dogs, don't train, skip vital steps or skip several steps and then blame the dog, the trainer and the weather for their failure. And of course it is never their fault. They also tend to be lazy trainers, although they would deny that to their death lol, but they really must think their trainer or other people are stupid or something, because the rest can see the holes in the training and KNOW why............
And these types of people can take a dog with loads of potential and natural talent and ruin that dog. And it is amazing how fast they can ruin that dog, much to the dismay of a trainer.

 

[DanL]

adojrts, that's very true. Our guys were only suggesting a venue where the dog might be able to have some success. It wasn't going to happen on the protection field. The guy isn't stupid, but I didn't think about that he might have the same expectations with another activity.

 

[adojrts]

Dan
I would bet my last dollar that he would have the same out come I feel bad for dogs, because they really don't have a chance of success because of the owner.

 

[DanL]

Well, I give him some credit, he rescued the dog, and it had obviously been abused as it is hand shy. He's made a lot of progress on him with obedience. But you are right, he is the kind of person who wants a finished product without putting the time and work into it.

 

[fillyone]

I mean, white GSDs in general are known to have some severe fear issues to begin with (why is that kids? Because duh-duh-duh! they were bred for color and color only!) and frankly I rarely see them able to be in public nevermind able to do a sport.

Ummm . . . I'm not sure what other term to use. Not cut out for the work? I'll have to think on it more. But "washed out" just irks me more than anything LOL!

Not well bred White GSDs.

In fact, I would bet the ratio of fearful Whites is the same as fearful *Insert color of choice here* if you only look at breeders who do it right.

And no, I don't have a white, I prefer sable :lol-sign:

 

[boxerdog44]

Quick Help Sch people for a question on the written bh exam

I know all the answers except this one:yikes: Why would a dog eat cadaver ? I thought because he is starving , but could it also be that the dog associates cadaver scent with the food reward when cadaver scent or that the dog is possessing the cadaver. I would think a dog shopuld not eat cadaver but be just indicative to it same as articles in tracking . or would the answer be not trained enough for cadaver search. This written test is something new?

 

[Sch3Dana]

You mean to tell me that there is a question on the new written test about dogs eating the cadavers they find!!! ?

How is that supposed to help you train dogs and be a responsible owner?

As to why they would eat them, I can imagine there are several possible:yikes::yikes: causes, but they are all too gruesome to even talk about. I think they should leave this on the advanced cadaver dog test. :yikes:

You are just trialing for a "traffic sure companion dog", right? If you find any cadavers, tell them you'll call the cops.

 

[boxerdog44]

boxerdog44

Yes there is a written test on the GSSCC site a question is why do dogs eat cadaver That is the question on it ? Check out the site and look at the written exam questions .

 

[Sch3Dana]

I checked out the site, but I couldn't find the test questions. Could you send me a link? Now I am really curious :yikes:

 

[boxerdog44]

boxerdg44

I re checked the site and it was not there some of the questions were kind of silly another was what does it mean when a dog has hard stool? I Had asked trhe president of our local club about the exam and she said there is now a written one . It was under the links , but now it seems to be removed . I will ask at our club meeting where the exam went off the site , maybe the questions are being reveiwed . I did not have a printer to print off the questions and had saved it under favorites , but now it says the page is unavailable

 

[Sch3Dana]

In my world hard stool means they've been eating raw. But I guess that's not what they are getting at. In any case, I'd love to see the test. It sounds like the sort of non-sense that someone writes to make sure you've read the required materials. It certainly isn't there to test your ability to own and handle a protection dog responsibly, which is what I thought the written portion of the BH was supposed to be doing. Well, either that, or I'm not qualified to own my dogs. Not knowing why they want to eat cadavers could certainly endanger my neighbors

 

[Romy]

I mean, white GSDs in general are known to have some severe fear issues to begin with (why is that kids? Because duh-duh-duh! they were bred for color and color only!) and frankly I rarely see them able to be in public nevermind able to do a sport.

A bit off topic:

I don't know that this is an entirely fair assessment. Those are things to keep in mind while searching for a breeder if you want a white GSD, but I can think of at least one breeder who has been outcrossing to schutzhund titled colored dogs to bring a lot of that working drive and temperament stability into her line of whites. There are an awful lot of colored GSDs out there with those exact same issues. As a whole, GSDs are pretty much victims of overbreeding and it's wise to be careful while looking for one.

 

[boxerdog44]

boxerdog44

There were those strange questions but there were also training questions bylaws , obediance questions, judge questions . etc I wish I could find it , My dogs have hard stool but they eat INOVA ANCESTERY DIET DRY Dog Food costs a lot but less feeding and less to clean up since they are large . I will ask were the test went maybe it was a joKe it was there in January

 

[showdawgz]

A bit off topic:

I don't know that this is an entirely fair assessment. Those are things to keep in mind while searching for a breeder if you want a white GSD, but I can think of at least one breeder who has been outcrossing to schutzhund titled colored dogs to bring a lot of that working drive and temperament stability into her line of whites. There are an awful lot of colored GSDs out there with those exact same issues. As a whole, GSDs are pretty much victims of overbreeding and it's wise to be careful while looking for one.

Every breed has a standard and anyone who purpuosely derieves from that standard does not have the breeds best interest at heart. And when you have people breeding for something such as color, typically do ot have the best breeding stock, to produce sound, solid nerved dogs.

It is true, all breeds have issues, but breeding for color definately puts the dogs at a higher risk for these issues.

 

[Romy]

Every breed has a standard and anyone who purpuosely derieves from that standard does not have the breeds best interest at heart. And when you have people breeding for something such as color, typically do ot have the best breeding stock, to produce sound, solid nerved dogs.

It is true, all breeds have issues, but breeding for color definately puts the dogs at a higher risk for these issues.

The color white was not excluded from the show ring until the 1970s. White german shepherds are still registrable, their offspring are registrable, if bred to a colored animal and produce colored offspring the offspring are welcome in the show ring, and they may still compete in AKC field events.

I can think of a lot of GSD breeders who breed away from the standard to get better working animals. Heck, a lot working dog breeders totally ignore AKC standards. My aunt has SAR german shepherd, with flopped ears. She was bred to another SAR german shepherd (long haired), to produce a litter of puppies that were trained for SAR. In the litter were longcoats, floppy ears, liver colored pups and some regular black and tans. Not all things you would want to see in the show ring, but they were bred for a job that many of the GSDs out there could not perform. Both parents were registered with the AKC by the way.

While I agree that breeding specifically for a color in any kind of livestock breeding program has the potential to go wrong if people aren't being careful of the other traits that are or are not being passed along, it does not mean that someone can't breed for a specific color and still produce good animals as long as they are keeping track of everything else.

What about all the GSD breeders who are breeding the really really red pointed black and tans now? There are whole kennels devoted to perpetuating that color. It's not any closer or further to the breed standard, but their focus is that deep red pigment. Does that mean all kennels with deep red and black GSDs are bad? No, I would be wary if that seemed to be their focus, but if they had a handle on the health testing, and titled their dogs or worked them in something like SAR then I don't think it would be a problem.

A lot of problems are caused in breeds when people start to arbitrarily exclude traits like color, which have existed within the breed since it's inception. You start to exclude a lot of dogs who have to potential to add a lot to the breeding program, and their genetics are lost forever.

This has already happened to scottish deerhounds. They used to come in wheaten, red, white, black, brindle, and grey. Then grey became very favorable, and people stopped breeding the other colors. Now the only color you will see is grey. It is literally impossible to find a non-grey deerhound, anywhere. The dog that played Sirius Black in the Harry Potter movie had to be dyed black, because there are no black deerhounds left. The breed itself is riddled with genetic health and temperament problems which may never be able to be bred out because there is so little genetic diversity.

This is beginning with borzoi in Europe. The standard over there was changed a few years ago from allowing dogs of any color, to making "ticking" markings unfavorable. Why? It does not harm their ability to chase wolves and catch them. There is no health problems associated with ticking. Many very fine borzoi are ticked.

Boston bull terriers are preferred by AKC judges to be black and white. But if you breed two black and whites together you've got a good chance of getting deaf puppies. If you breed a brindle and white to a black and white, the puppies will be fine. However, black and whites are so favored, it is nearly impossible to find brindle and white dogs in the US anymore. I know because I have looked. This is an example of color exclusion harming a breed as well.

All rules like that do is harm the breed and narrow the gene pool. Sorry for the humongous off topic rant, but I hate to see breeds ruined because of the standards saying which color (of the existing colors within a breed) is more favorable than another simply based on cosmetics and fad/fashion.

 

[showdawgz]

Well, I am a working dog person, and white dogs stand out like a sore thumb. In the military do you really want a dog to be seen at night when the threat can easily shoot and kill the dog, so much for K9 reinforcements.

White GSD's are not in standard, bottom line. I didnt write the rules, I just follow them and produce dogs to the breed standard. Standards do not only apply to a dogs confirmation but to temperament and ability as well, which is crucial to any working breed.

Show breeders do breed for confirmation first and color is a part of that. A GSD with rich coloring is way more flashy in the show ring. And black/tan is an acceptable color, unlike white. I am attracted to deep pigmented dogs, and if all else is equal I go for the dog who is richer in color, or darker, because that is my personal preference.

Like I said standards are written and revised for a reason, thats just the way it goes..