Protection training.

Discussion in 'Dog Training Forum' started by mrose_s, Sep 24, 2006.

  1. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    I know a couple guys who provide green GSDs to police agencies. They raise the dogs til they are about a year old, doing environmental imprinting, foundation bite work, drive building, and other basics, but no obedience. Even with great breeding stock, not every dog is going to make the cut. You might have 2-3 dogs out of 10 that can make it as a patrol dog. Maybe another couple would be good for sports, and the rest are pets. I've been watching one pup who has been coming to protection training since he was 8 weeks old. He's 10 months now and has less issues with bite work than most of the adult dogs at the club. Of course they are not putting any defense on him, it's all win win win for him, and he's building up his confidence so that when the time comes for him to face pressure, he'll blow right past it.

    I know several people involved in police K9 activities- one is a director of training for his entire dept, and he's nationally certified for various things like training bomb dogs, decoying, and sits on a few national level boards. Another 2 guys are street patrol handlers. All of them said the departments are going back to GSD's, vs the Mal because the GSD has traits that make them a better patrol dog. They have a better on/off switch. They will bark more and their size makes them more intimidating- an 80-90lb barking GSD just looks scarier than a 50lb Mal.
     
  2. showdawgz

    showdawgz New Member

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    Thats what tattoo/microchips are for. I have yet to find a reputable breeder who doesnt do either.
     
  3. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

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    As I said before, I'm not disagreeing with you. GSDs make great police dogs and lots of departments prefer them over mals.

    The question is: why are they so darn expensive? I contend that small litter sizes and higher levels of disqualifying health problems decrease the supply and increase the prices.

    I'll even give you the stats from OFA:

    GSD
    Elbows 19% fail
    Hips 19.4% fail

    Malinois
    Elbows 10% fail
    Hips 5.5% fail

    I'm not saying that this is the only reason for price differences, but I do think the affects are significant.
     
  4. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    Health issues might be a reason, but what about goldens and all the other dogs who have a higher instance of hip and elbow problems, yet are not as expensive? I think it's more that people are willing to pay a premium price for a good dog. But, that isn't always the rule. I think Gunnar is a great dog, and so do all the people I train with. I paid 600 for him. One of my friends who does the police brokering sells his pups for 500-700. His green dogs are more expensive- 1500 and more- because of the time and training, and working potential, that he's put into them. You'll pay a good price for a green mal as well.
     
  5. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    I think the main reason for them being expensive is because they are popular - both as a working/sport breed and as a family pet breed. There are people willing to pay high dollar amounts for them, and because of that the breeders can charge that. Malinois are less popular, and there wouldn't be as many opportunities for breeders to find buyers willing to pay a lot.

    I have seen many GSD's for sale in the same price range as Mal's, but I have also seen many that cost 3 times as much. If I'm looking for a GSD, I'm going to shope around for a price I can afford without sacrificing quality. If the average pet owner is shopping around, they might think that a $1500 dog is actually better quality than a $500 dog.

    As for GSD's being preferable for police departments, the primary reason is because GSD's are more forgiving of novice handler mistakes. Most police k9 handlers are not experienced dog trainers, and as such, they would have a lot of difficulty with a mal.
     
  6. adojrts

    adojrts New Member

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    Speaking from a breeders point of view, this is why I think they are and should be more $$$$.
    If the dogs that I was breeding, were proven to work and proven to produce workers (yep I know not every pup in every litter...) AND those same dogs had little or no health issues in a breed that is prone to health issues, I as a breeder would be justified in wanting more money because of the demand but more importantly, I know that my dogs could hold up physically to the demands of the training and have long solid careers. And those dogs would also be highly valued as breeding stock as well. Not to mention the knowledge and money that went into producing and testing those dogs. I would expect that anyone in that position has also at one time and probably continuing to do so, would have done a great deal of culling. Which we also know hits a breeder hard.
    I think this is especially true for working or performance dogs, buyers of such dogs are usually better educated on the breed/discipline and if they are not, they have mentors that are. The average pet owner can get soaked for an inferior dog and it doesn't effect the breeder from selling the next inferior dog.
    But a breeder that sells inferior dogs bred for working etc often has a very limited list of prospective buyers and short careers selling to that market. It sure doesn't take long for word to get around about who to purchase from and who to run from because the dogs can't get the job done for whatever reason.
     
  7. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

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    I paid $200 for a dog that I qualified for three world championships with. But that is not the point, those are a couple instances of people getting a good deal.

    The point is, the police are buying tools, not pets and not breeding stock. I think it's safe to say that they don't care what the tool looks like or what his pedigree is as long as he does the job that they are buying him to do.

    Now, there are breeders of mals and GSDs all over Europe and the US breeding for dogs that make good tools. But tool B costs 1.5x as much as tool A and they are both doing approximately the same job. This is why mals have taken over in police and military work. The cops and the army don't care about breeds and politics and image- they are buying the dogs that do the job at the best price over the longest span of time.

    And, you know there was a number cruncher somewhere proving that mals represent a better value when the GERMAN military switched. The Germans. They are a little patriotic and proud. I bet there were riots in the streets when they switched to Belgian dogs.

    So, the question is, what has happened with GSD breeding that even the German military doesn't want them anymore? Why are they so expensive? I know if I wanted to breed for a profit, I would always choose the more expensive breed, all else being equal. So, my gut instinct is that all else is not equal. Something is going on that makes GSDs less profitable, otherwise mal police dog breeders would be switching to GSDs like mad. They aren't. The switch is happening in the opposite direction.
     
  8. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    It's like buying a Mercedes vs a Ford. Both do the same job, but one is better built and has better features. It costs more for that.

    Anyway, the trend I'm hearing from my LEO friends is that they are going back to the GSD. My buddy just had a class of 8 recruits and every dog was a GSD. Not a Mal in the bunch.
     
  9. showdawgz

    showdawgz New Member

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    Another :hail: to you Dan!!
     
  10. Amstaffer

    Amstaffer New Member

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    Just a quick comment (sorry if this has been said, but I didn't take the time to read all the posts).

    Check with you insurance company before training your dog in any protection work. Some insurance companies will drop you if your dog has been train in that area.

    For example: When I switched to State Farm, they could careless if I had Pit Bulls but they were very worried about what "training" they had. My agent said that any protection work (especially bite work) was strictly a no no.

    I think Schutzhund is a great sport but just be careful and check into everything before you start.
     
  11. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    Which totally makes no sense- let's drop the dogs that are stable, trained and reliable, but we'll keep insuring the nerve bag, fear biting dog from the BYB, because he's never been trained to bite.
     
  12. Amstaffer

    Amstaffer New Member

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    I agree, it makes as much sense as not selling insurance to a person who owns a pit bull. However it is a real practice of some insurance companies and needs to be considered.
     
  13. MasterOfAllBulls

    MasterOfAllBulls New Member

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    I also have crazy dog that I can't bring around humans. That is what I like. Humans are crazy need to be at ban. Here is my Boy


    [​IMG]
     
  14. Zoom

    Zoom Twin 2.0

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    Why do you like having a dog so crazy you have to isolate it?? Especially with all the hype of "man-eating pitbulls" running rampant and even though you might say different, the majority of the public is still going to call your crazy-ass dog a pitbull and rush legistlation to ban them and anything that looks like them. You can't be part of an actual registry, you'd get eaten alive by the members for promoting general idiocy and unstable lines.
     
  15. iwantmypup

    iwantmypup New Member

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    Cute dog! Bully breeds are really cool:D

    -Ali
     
  16. darkchild16

    darkchild16 We are Home.

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    Thats a great thing to be proud of :rolleyes: NOTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bully breeds are suppossed to be FRIENDLY to humans. You cannot be apart of a actual registry because we would fry you alive.
     
  17. showdawgz

    showdawgz New Member

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    You missed the entire point of this thread :rolleyes:. Protection dog does not equal vicious. Protection= stable, solid nerved, good/indifferent with people dog. If your dog is vicious to people, then more and likely he's biting out of fear, and I wouldnt trust my life with a dog like that....
     
  18. DanL

    DanL Active Member

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    That dog doesn't look right. He needs a 40lb chain with a padlock to prove he's a maneater.
     
  19. Sch3Dana

    Sch3Dana Workin' Dog

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    We are so lucky that littlebowow sent us the link before that April 5th expiration date. You too can have a Schutzhund dog for the low, low price of $37.00:lol-sign:
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2008
  20. corgipower

    corgipower Tweleve Enthusiest

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    Now, now, dana, I don't see anywhere that he is offering schutzhund training for $37.00. I mean you'd be crazy to do that for anything less than $43.99. The equipment costs money, ya know.
    :hail:
     

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