Protection training.

[Romy]

Not all working GSDs are in the military. There has been the argument that white GSDs with the correct temperament and drives for police work would have a better advantage than colored dogs. When the officers send a dog after a suspect, they are required to loudly announce that they are releasing a dog, so the suspect knows it is coming anyway. Secondly, most police dogs that die by gunfire in the line of duty are killed by friendly fire. If the dogs were a more visible color in the dark some of those fatalites could have been avoided.

For dogs leading blind and deaf handlers, it has been suggested that a light colored dog, being more visible to drivers and other members of the public, would be at an advantage.

In many lines of work color does not matter. Herding, tracking, SAR, bomb detection, drug detection, service dog work...Honestly, a light silver is just as visible as a white. Whites are only disqualified from the show ring, not working or any AKC sanctioned sporting events, and they are not disqualified as being AKC registrable german shepherds.

 

[Sch3Dana]

Well, I am a working dog person, and white dogs stand out like a sore thumb. In the military do you really want a dog to be seen at night when the threat can easily shoot and kill the dog, so much for K9 reinforcements.

I'm a working dog person, too, and there are very few GSDs doing work that requires them to be invisible. I do agree that there are some jobs where you wouldn't want them to be easily visible, like guard duty, and for that I would choose a solid black dog. But, visibility can also be an asset in cases where you want a deterrent as in the case of a personal protection dog or police dog. It has no effect whatsoever on guide dogs, service dogs, specific odor detection dogs, SAR, herding dogs, sport dogs and so many of the other things that GSDs do. Like so many of the arguments for excluding certain phenotypes, this one doesn't hold water when inspected closely.

Show breeders do breed for confirmation first and color is a part of that. A GSD with rich coloring is way more flashy in the show ring. And black/tan is an acceptable color, unlike white. I am attracted to deep pigmented dogs, and if all else is equal I go for the dog who is richer in color, or darker, because that is my personal preference.

I think Romy's point is that this is the problem. For completely arbitrary reasons breeders limit their gene pools more and more all the time, breeding for qualities that have nothing to do with health or working ability. Eventually the gene pool is so small that you start to see serious health problems and there is no where to outcross to- all the genes have disappeared.

Has anyone else heard about the geneticist who estimated that the GSDs have an "effective population size" of 500 individuals? Millions of dogs in the world, but so inbred that there might as well be 500. I wonder if this is why it is so hard to find one without serious health problems? Lots of them with great pigment, very few with great health

 

[showdawgz]

Well regardless of the fact that you agree or not, white GSD's are a fault. "Normal" GSD's have so many issues as it is, breeding a dog that is a disqualification is irresponsible. People need to stop going against the rules, and work on improving the breed, as the standard describes them.

I see white GSD's very similar to American line shepherds, both out of the true standard (both in temperament and appearance) of the german shepherd, but assessing temperament is more difficult that asssesing confirmation. Though written standards for both temperament and confirmation leave some room for imagination, it CLEARLY states white is a disqualification. Why must someone go against standard when the breed is so screwed up? Work on fixing the breed first then venture on to imcorporating different colors in the gene pool, EVENTUALLY.

 

[Romy]

The color white was disqualified, I believe, because of the erroneous notion that the color white "washes out" the richer pigment in their colored offspring, and that white dogs had health problems. Both of those notions have been proven false, and the fact that it was disqualified (from the show ring and no where else) more than 70 years after the breed was created says a lot.

Why must someone go against standard when the breed is so screwed up? Work on fixing the breed first then venture on to incorporating different colors in the gene pool, EVENTUALLY.

Maybe this is where a misunderstanding has come in. We are not talking about introducing new colors. We are talking about changing the existing breed standard to eliminate existing, perfectly good colors and the detrimental effect it has on the gene pool.

One of the founding studs of the breed was white I believe. His name was Greif. Max Von Stefanitz is famously quoted as saying, "No good dog is a bad color." That, to me says volumes more about where the priorities with the breed standard lay with the breed creator himself. And in my mind he has much more influence than the people responsible for creating the "American Hock-trotters" you see dancing around the show rings.

 

[Zoom]

People need to stop going against the rules, and work on improving the breed, as the standard describes them.

Why must someone go against standard when the breed is so screwed up? Work on fixing the breed first then venture on to imcorporating different colors in the gene pool, EVENTUALLY.

And why is the breed so screwed up in the first place? Because people keep breeding for trends that don't follow the standard anyway...hence the creation of the "American Hock-Trotters" and "Euro Camel-backs". Neither of those dogs fit the standard either.

opcorn:

 

[Sch3Dana]

Why must someone go against standard when the breed is so screwed up? Work on fixing the breed first then venture on to imcorporating different colors in the gene pool, EVENTUALLY.

When a breed gets this screwed up, I start to question the existing standard and typical breeding practices.

I lived in Germany for a year, training sport dogs at a local Schutzhund club. I also traveled all over going to and giving seminars and watching and participating in trials. I talked to tons of Germans who had gotten malinois or were planning to do so. These were people who had had GSDs all their lives and been active in working and showing them. They were leaving the breed in droves. Every single person that I talked to about this told the same story- they loved GSDs, but after going through so many unhealthy dogs, they gave up and got mals.

Even the Germans are giving up on GSDs.

The breeders of GSDs have some serious problems to address if they want to save their breed as a working dog. I suspect the root cause of the terrible health is related to the small gene pool and lack of outcrossing. And selecting dogs out of the gene pool based on coat color would be irresponsible at this point- it will only serve to constrict the gene pool further.

Now, I am not a scientist, so I am only giving second hand information. But, there is a lot of information coming in now from studies in population genetics that make the health problems in the GSDs make sense. Too much inbreeding for too long and there's no way to outcross within the gene pool anymore- all the genes have been thrown away. Anyone else know more about this? Want to throw some light on this subject?

 

[corgipower]

From here ~

In the United States, the White German Shepherd appears throughout the history of the breed. Ann Tracy, owner of one of the first two German Shepherd champions on record in America, imported some of the finest German show stock to the USA, and white puppies showed up immediately in her litters. In 1917, the first White German Shepherds were registered with the American Kennel Club. In the 1920's H. N. Hanchett of Minnesota imported German-bred White German Shepherds. Some of the finest early German lines such as v. Oeringen, The Strong heart, Rin-Tin-Tin and Long Worth bloodlines frequently produced white dogs.

It was not until the 1930s that white dogs were discriminated against, after the death of Max Von Stephanitz (architect of the modern Shepherd), and increased with the rise of Hitler. During the 1960s as the White Shepherd grew ever more popular, friction developed between the breeders of the White German Shepherd and the breeders of the current standard colored German Shepherd. Genetic problems appearing in the breed were increasingly blamed on the White German Shepherd, and Germany began a campaign to outlaw the white color. Puppies born with the snow white coat were drowned, and records of their births destroyed. White Shepherds were held responsible for "fading" or "washing out" the darker dogs color. This point has been refuted innumerable times by leading breeders and geneticists. However in 1968, following Germanys lead, the White German Shepherd was disqualified from the conformation show ring in America. In 1980 the Canadian Kennel Club was petitioned by the German Shepherd dog Club of Canada to disqualify the white dogs from the show conformation show ring.

However, in response to hundreds of letters, the CKC refused to disqualify the White German Shepherd, and the white dogs are still eligible for conformation competition in that country.

I've heard this before, it's also my understanding that you can breed a white to a white and get a colored GSD. I haven't personally seen any white GSD's doing Sch or police work, but that's may be because they aren't being bred for that kind of drive, due to less interest in having a white GSD for those purposes.

I haven't seen any indication that white in a GSD is indicative of other health problems. Excessive white in a corgi or an aussie would be a possible health issue.

 

[corgipower]

Now, I am not a scientist, so I am only giving second hand information. But, there is a lot of information coming in now from studies in population genetics that make the health problems in the GSDs make sense. Too much inbreeding for too long and there's no way to outcross within the gene pool anymore- all the genes have been thrown away. Anyone else know more about this? Want to throw some light on this subject?

I'm not familiar with GSD pedigrees, so I don't know what the gene pool consists of, but I do know that too much inbreeding is very problematic. I am seeing health problems in corgis because of this as well ~ just not a lot of corgi people are willing to acknowlege it. There are a number of breeds that probably have a limited gene pool though.

If the gene pool is small, but healthy then there can be an effort to bring things back. But for that to work, breeders need to be extremely dilligent about health testing everything they breed.

 

[showdawgz]

Horands grandfather was a white GSD, but wasnt even registered...


I've had and worked with MANY GSD's and have yet to see these terrible "health issues" that dont affect any other breed.

Point is, white GSD's are never worked, while everyone claims they should be re-incorporated into the breed standard. Then prove it, go out and work your white GSD's, prove them worthy of breeding, just like us with "normal" GSD's. Unlike conformation who wont allow you to show, the working dog world doesnt discriminate, although many people feel the same way I do, there are no rules saying you cant work your dog. Bring all them out and start working, I give credit when credit is due, but until that point my opinion stands.

 

[showdawgz]

And why is the breed so screwed up in the first place? Because people keep breeding for trends that don't follow the standard anyway...hence the creation of the "American Hock-Trotters" and "Euro Camel-backs". Neither of those dogs fit the standard either.

opcorn:

What about working lines? No fancy lingo for their faults . Yes people, just like the people breeding white GSD's (but at least their color is in the standard in this day and age). I have respect for neither.

 

[Sch3Dana]

I've had and worked with MANY GSD's and have yet to see these terrible "health issues" that dont affect any other breed.

All you have to do is look at the price tag on a good malinois vs a good GSD (green police dog). The malinois are much cheaper. Why? BC the GSDs are rarer.

 

[DanL]

That's because overall, the well bred GSD is a better dog. Mals haven't been ruined yet, but there are enough nerve bag, bite anything mals out there that they are starting to be affected in a negative way. Give me a calm, focused, businesslike GSD any day.

 

[Romy]

Point is, white GSD's are never worked, while everyone claims they should be re-incorporated into the breed standard. Then prove it, go out and work your white GSD's, prove them worthy of breeding, just like us with "normal" GSD's. Unlike conformation who wont allow you to show, the working dog world doesnt discriminate, although many people feel the same way I do, there are no rules saying you cant work your dog. Bring all them out and start working, I give credit when credit is due, but until that point my opinion stands.

I have a vast amount more respect for this dog as a working animal than I do for any of the poorly bred colored GSDs that we fostered.

Like I said before, be aware if your breeder in any breed focuses solely on coat color. It doesn't matter if the color is white, richly pigmented black and tan, or whatever. If that is the sole focus, it's trouble. However, just because some, or even the majority of breeders uses color as the basis for a pairing does not mean that every single dog of that color should be written off as "bad" or "worthless". That to me is equivalent to all the breedists out there saying "your dog has a square head and short fur so it is a vicious killer fighting machine and should be euthanized."

I've had and worked with MANY GSD's and have yet to see these terrible "health issues" that dont affect any other breed.

Have you ever worked in rescue? This is Tengu. She was such a neurotic mess that she puked her guts out and had explosive diarrhea if you left the room and she couldn't follow you. She tore a steel drop pin crate to complete shreds in twenty minutes when I left to do laundry. GSDs who are fear biters, severely DA, etc. Those are the dogs that are abandoned by the hundreds. If you get into GSD rescue you will meet more than your fair share of poorly bred individuals. Even Willow, a supposedly well bred working GSD who belongs to a friend of mine who does SAR has bum elbows at the ripe old age of four. All the time he invested training her and she can't even go on a workout, much less search for a missing person. She looks for corpses, that's it. The saddest thing is that she has the drive and energy to work, but her body just isn't healthy enough.

Edit: fixed some spelling errors

 

[showdawgz]

That's because overall, the well bred GSD is a better dog. Mals haven't been ruined yet, but there are enough nerve bag, bite anything mals out there that they are starting to be affected in a negative way. Give me a calm, focused, businesslike GSD any day.

:hail:. I dont mind putting in the extra bucks. BTW I havent spend over $800 on a GSD EVER. Thats a very resonable price, IMO.

 

[showdawgz]

I can show you hundreds of pics of in standard (color wise) pics of working GSD's to your 1 of a white GSD.

About rescue... you will never find a GSD in a shelter that came from a reputable breeder. The ONLY breeders I respect are those who take back their pups, no matter the age. Those are the only breeders that deserve that title, all others dumped in a shelter are a result of people who dont care about their dogs or breeding, therefore I consider them BYB dogs.

 

[Romy]

I can show you hundreds of pics of in standard (color wise) pics of working GSD's to your 1 of a white GSD.

About rescue... you will never find a GSD in a shelter that came from a reputable breeder. The ONLY breeders I respect are those who take back their pups, no matter the age. Those are the only breeders that deserve that title, all others dumped in a shelter are a result of people who dont care about their dogs or breeding, therefore I consider them BYB dogs.

You asked where all the messed up dogs are, because you haven't seen them, and I told you exactly where to find them. Of course a reputable breeder will take them back. Then again, reputable breeders are not producing mentally and physically diseased dogs. period.

I don't doubt there are many many more colored dogs in uniform than whites. That still does not mean all whites are bad dogs who should be culled from the gene pool, just as it does not mean all colored dogs are cut out for police work. I do believe that a dog should have to prove it's working ability, temperament and health before reproducing, regardless of color. I do not believe an established breed standard should be changed to eliminate dogs who have otherwise proven themselves from the gene pool, simply based on the color of their fur. It is just so ridiculous, especially when you consider that whites and colored dogs can be littermates.

 

[showdawgz]

You asked where all the messed up dogs are, because you haven't seen them, and I told you exactly where to find them. Of course a reputable breeder will take them back. Then again, reputable breeders are not producing mentally and physically diseased dogs. period.

I don't doubt there are many many more colored dogs in uniform than whites. That still does not mean all whites are bad dogs who should be culled from the gene pool, just as it does not mean all colored dogs are cut out for police work. I do believe that a dog should have to prove it's working ability, temperament and health before reproducing, regardless of color. I do not believe an established breed standard should be changed to eliminate dogs who have otherwise proven themselves from the gene pool, simply based on the color of their fur. It is just so ridiculous, especially when you consider that whites and colored dogs can be littermates.

I never said ALL whites are bad dogs, I said PROVE their breed worthiness. Its the standard, and anyone who cannot respect a breeds standards does not have the breeds best interest at heart (like I've said before) and that includes people breeding whites, or any other breeder not sticking to standard.

 

[Sch3Dana]

you will never find a GSD in a shelter that came from a reputable breeder. The ONLY breeders I respect are those who take back their pups, no matter the age.

Well, of course if you define the terminology with such an extreme slant towards your opinion you will always be right.

Then again, reputable breeders are not producing mentally and physically diseased dogs. period.

You can't be serious!?!

I know many really good breeders and if they breed enough dogs they get some with some sort of physical or temperamental problems. It's not like you sign the ethical breeders promise and shazam, all your puppies pop out healthy. The only breeders who don't produce dogs with health problems are the ones who don't test and won't look and lie through their teeth to cover their a****. As long as we define good breeder as one who produces no health problems, it's our fault that they lie and cover their a****. After all, one case of bad hips (which is a polygenetic trait, most likely with strong dietary influences and impossible to screen out of a gene pool) and you've defined them as a bad breeder.

My friend just bought a rottie puppy from a very good breeder. They are nice people, love their dogs and train, title and health check all their stock. His puppy just came up with bad hips. The breeders are upset, he is upset, I'm sure the dog is upset. They sent him all his money back. But, he still has a dysplastic young working dog that he can't take on a hike, let alone work. They aren't bad breeders and he isn't a bad buyer, but they all certainly had bad luck.

 

[Sch3Dana]

That's because overall, the well bred GSD is a better dog. Mals haven't been ruined yet, but there are enough nerve bag, bite anything mals out there that they are starting to be affected in a negative way. Give me a calm, focused, businesslike GSD any day.

I'm not even going to disagree with that statement. I think most people and police departments would be much better off with GSDs. And, there are tons of breeders who want to sell them those GSDs as police dogs- every kennel of working GSDs wants to be able to point out their successful working dog breeding program. And they are breeding like mad. So, where are the adult GSDs for purchase as green police dogs? Tons of puppies, very few adult dogs that can pass all the test to go to a police department. Does this seem a little odd to anyone else out there? FYI, the test include working ability and hips, elbows, spine (sometimes) and whatever else the department wants to test.

 

[maple]

About rescue... you will never find a GSD in a shelter that came from a reputable breeder.

I'm fairly certain you probably can - the breeder may be a saint, but if the buyer isn't, then the dog they purchase can most definately end up in a shelter.