Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
- Thread starter ~Tucker&Me~
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BECAUSE honestly, what reasons could you have for not agreeing that they should have BASIC RIGHTS?!
How does equal rights for them even affect you?
I'm sorry but if you are all for not allowing gay couples the right to marry, to visit each-other in the hospital, to share health insurance, to have parental rights and all the other basic rights that come with having equal rights with any other couple.
then yea, you might not hate gay people, sure.. but what reasons do you have for that kind of unfairness?
It might not be hate.
but if it looks like a duck.
How does equal rights for them even affect you?
I'm sorry but if you are all for not allowing gay couples the right to marry, to visit each-other in the hospital, to share health insurance, to have parental rights and all the other basic rights that come with having equal rights with any other couple.
then yea, you might not hate gay people, sure.. but what reasons do you have for that kind of unfairness?
It might not be hate.
but if it looks like a duck.
No. I gave my answer. It is one that is quite unpopular here, so whats the point of hanging around and letting everybody get their licks in?
God tells me that homosexuality is a sin. End of story.
We can drag out and fight all day about this, whose mind is going to change? The pro gay marriage argument is centered in human "reason". Mine is centered on Gods commandments. I have heard all the easy responces to this line of stuff before, so please spare me the "see Christians are just dumb and don't think" stuff. Trust me, I put a LOT of thought into this.
There is just little point in going deeper than this, here. We have had this discussion 100 times already.
God tells me that homosexuality is a sin. End of story.
We can drag out and fight all day about this, whose mind is going to change? The pro gay marriage argument is centered in human "reason". Mine is centered on Gods commandments. I have heard all the easy responces to this line of stuff before, so please spare me the "see Christians are just dumb and don't think" stuff. Trust me, I put a LOT of thought into this.
There is just little point in going deeper than this, here. We have had this discussion 100 times already.
So are a lot of other things that are legal. Are you fighting and voting to make them illegal too? Having other gods? Having affairs? Honoring your father and mother?
I dont mean for this to sound snarky or anything. I just cant understand why so many people are so stuck on this one that does not affect them at all.
I dont mean for this to sound snarky or anything. I just cant understand why so many people are so stuck on this one that does not affect them at all.
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So, I ask again, why should one group of consenting adults not be granted the same protections and rights of the law as another group of consenting adults in this country? your God tells you so? God can't tell our gov't which laws apply to which people. and what about people that get married under the eyes of another God? are you in favor of banning those marriages. i'm pretty sure your bible also tells you not to honor false gods right? and why can't people not agree with something in their personal life, let afford others the same rights that they enjoy without having to ban everything?
A European court actually just upheld a conviction for incest. A guy who was adopted away met his family and eventually married his blood sister. The article said 2 of the 4 resulting children had disabilities. It did not say how severe or how likely it was tied to the incest though.
The state MAY have a say in incest (first cousin) marriages due to the risk of disabled children. This link suggests its an overblown risk: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/12/cousinmarriage/
Counting all the exceptions, more states let you marry a first cousin than not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cousin_marriage_map1.svg Also, there is no Defense of Marriage Act for Cousins. Another state will have to accept their marriage as legal.
I would certainly suggest an exception if there was a physical reason the incestuous couple could not reproduce. Then again, since when are we requiring people to get married before having sex...
The state MAY have a say in incest (first cousin) marriages due to the risk of disabled children. This link suggests its an overblown risk: http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/12/cousinmarriage/
Counting all the exceptions, more states let you marry a first cousin than not: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cousin_marriage_map1.svg Also, there is no Defense of Marriage Act for Cousins. Another state will have to accept their marriage as legal.
I would certainly suggest an exception if there was a physical reason the incestuous couple could not reproduce. Then again, since when are we requiring people to get married before having sex...
That isn't a reason. That's blind faith. If you say "Oh by the way Taqroy, I think gay marriage is wrong because God says it's a sin and I fully believe him," I'll accept that (you did that already, ftr, I just missed it). Am I going to think less of you? Yeah, I am. Because *I* wouldn't accept condemning a whole group of people on the say so of one being.
And you seem like a smart, logical, well rounded person so I'm sure you have put a lot of thought into your chosen belief system. So have I. And if you've put a lot of thought into why homosexuality is bad then I would expect you to have better reasons than "because that guy said so."
And you seem like a smart, logical, well rounded person so I'm sure you have put a lot of thought into your chosen belief system. So have I. And if you've put a lot of thought into why homosexuality is bad then I would expect you to have better reasons than "because that guy said so."
You know, we might never agree things, puck and I.
and on this issue, I'm pretty sure we will NEVER AGREE.
but at least here is an opinion that sticks to it's guns.
HERE IS MY STANCE AND HERE IS WHY. GOD. BOOM. END OF STORY.
More than anything, it's not even the religious reasons for feeling personally against gay marriage and all that that irks me. I don't care how people feel personally.. if I did I wouldn't be able to sleep at night from the amount of racists in this country.
It's those that claim that they have nothing personal against gay people or who flip flop and CHERRY PICK THE BIBLE and religious values when it works for them and ignore them when it doesn't or isn't popular.
I center my values in humanity and what I feel is right.. others center it on religion and those values.. others center it on what Oprah has to say.
but **** if you are going to have an opinion at least back it up and stand by it.
AKA: I hate "Oh I'm not a racist, I just wouldn't hire a black person because you know.. stuff" and "I don't hate gay people, I just don't believe they should get married or have basic rights as couples because.. you know.. stuff"
a lot more than just plain ol "I hate black people because according to the constitution they are blablabla" and "I hate gay people because the bible says what they are doing is a sin"
I don't agree with either of them, I can't say I'm happy that either opinion exists.
but at least the second set is honest in it's opinion and why. Instead of hiding behind a wall of vagueness and BS
My 2 cents.
"because god Said so"
will NEVER EVER be a good enough reason for me because I don't believe in god.
It's taken me a long LONG LONG LONG time and years of catholic school to simply accept that as much as I do not believe in organized religion.. some people do. and they too deserve respect and rights.
It's when those rights to believe what they want personally, infringe upon the rights of others in a country where there is SUPPOSED TO BE separation of church and state, where I have a problem.
and on this issue, I'm pretty sure we will NEVER AGREE.
but at least here is an opinion that sticks to it's guns.
HERE IS MY STANCE AND HERE IS WHY. GOD. BOOM. END OF STORY.
More than anything, it's not even the religious reasons for feeling personally against gay marriage and all that that irks me. I don't care how people feel personally.. if I did I wouldn't be able to sleep at night from the amount of racists in this country.
It's those that claim that they have nothing personal against gay people or who flip flop and CHERRY PICK THE BIBLE and religious values when it works for them and ignore them when it doesn't or isn't popular.
I center my values in humanity and what I feel is right.. others center it on religion and those values.. others center it on what Oprah has to say.
but **** if you are going to have an opinion at least back it up and stand by it.
AKA: I hate "Oh I'm not a racist, I just wouldn't hire a black person because you know.. stuff" and "I don't hate gay people, I just don't believe they should get married or have basic rights as couples because.. you know.. stuff"
a lot more than just plain ol "I hate black people because according to the constitution they are blablabla" and "I hate gay people because the bible says what they are doing is a sin"
I don't agree with either of them, I can't say I'm happy that either opinion exists.
but at least the second set is honest in it's opinion and why. Instead of hiding behind a wall of vagueness and BS
My 2 cents.
"because god Said so"
will NEVER EVER be a good enough reason for me because I don't believe in god.
It's taken me a long LONG LONG LONG time and years of catholic school to simply accept that as much as I do not believe in organized religion.. some people do. and they too deserve respect and rights.
It's when those rights to believe what they want personally, infringe upon the rights of others in a country where there is SUPPOSED TO BE separation of church and state, where I have a problem.
Excellent points that I have also thought a LOT about.
Again.... I am walking in faith, not by sight. Since I have truly turned to God and put my trust in Him, life has never been better. And I say that as I sit here unemployed at the moment, looking for what God has for me next. He has put some scary opportunites before me that would be HUGE changes if I took them.
But to try to answer "it does not affect them." It does. Marriage is a sacred institution. If this were JUST about government recognizing a couple, giving them legal rights, I would not be so opposed. But they want to change a sacred institution, given by God to man as a gift. Two men or two women is not marriage. Not to God, so not to me.
Again.... I am walking in faith, not by sight. Since I have truly turned to God and put my trust in Him, life has never been better. And I say that as I sit here unemployed at the moment, looking for what God has for me next. He has put some scary opportunites before me that would be HUGE changes if I took them.
But to try to answer "it does not affect them." It does. Marriage is a sacred institution. If this were JUST about government recognizing a couple, giving them legal rights, I would not be so opposed. But they want to change a sacred institution, given by God to man as a gift. Two men or two women is not marriage. Not to God, so not to me.
But its not
Marriage has been around way longer. No one is saying a religion has to honor or recognize same sex marriages. I have said this before but I really mean it...religions can adopt a new word if thats what offends them. My marriage is not sacred (well, ok, it is actually but not by your standards as it involved the goddess ) My marriage should not threaten or somehow invalidate the sacredness of your marriage validated by your God. The legal aspect of marriage is NOT a sacred institution.
Marriage has been around way longer. No one is saying a religion has to honor or recognize same sex marriages. I have said this before but I really mean it...religions can adopt a new word if thats what offends them. My marriage is not sacred (well, ok, it is actually but not by your standards as it involved the goddess ) My marriage should not threaten or somehow invalidate the sacredness of your marriage validated by your God. The legal aspect of marriage is NOT a sacred institution.
You are right Fran, we will probably never agree about this. Where you are wrong is the "cherry picking" thing. Or the drivel about "i'm not a racist", etc...
Tell me, where do you think I ignore what the Bible says "because it's convienient"? You might actually have a good thing to point out to me. I ask because I also know I need to be held to account, unbelievers show me things about myself I need to change everyday.
Tell me, where do you think I ignore what the Bible says "because it's convienient"? You might actually have a good thing to point out to me. I ask because I also know I need to be held to account, unbelievers show me things about myself I need to change everyday.
Yeah, I thought about that situation after I posted - what if a family is split up and adopted to different families and the brother and sister randomly meet up and fall in love? It's a farfetched plot but I could see it happening. And I'm with you - if they were willing to not reproduce (pending what the rate of genetic defect is - I don't know much about it) then I don't see any real reason to keep them apart.
I don't have the answer you're looking for, but I will address the question.
First, I know most people believe the only people against SSM are against it for religious reasons... there was a poll years ago that showed that to not be true. I can't find it now but it asked people their views and then asked their religion, and it was really surprising that a lot of people who didn't identify as Christian were still against it. I don't think you would find that true NOW, because the numbers have started to switch with more people pro and fewer people against, so I would guess we are probably getting closer and closer to religion being the dividing line, but I'm not sure because it doesn't look like anybody has repeated that study. Or at least my Google Fu isn't finding it if they have. =P
OTOH there are gays who don't think gays should be allowed to marry. Gore Vidal is probably the most popular and vocal one, he thinks marriage as an institution is already destroyed and doesn't understand why anybody would want to take part in it. (it's strange to read his comments on it.) He's been with his partner for a long time, too, I don't remember for how long but it's been AGES. You would think "of course someone like this would be for gay marriage!" And yet he isn't. Hence why I said it's strange to read his comments on it... also that he seems to be calling it fighting for your right to get divorced... ehhh. Makes me feel uncomfortable in a way I can't describe.
So there ARE arguments that aren't "GOD SAID NO" against gay marriage, some even being made by homosexuals themselves. I honestly don't know what a lot of them are, it doesn't exactly matter to me, so I can't tell you what they are. But I do know they exist.
Now, as to whether any given individual thinks they are "good" arguments or not... well, that's all subjective, isn't it? I'm sure to Gore Vidal, his arguments are good, but probably aren't good to a number of other people (like I'm sure Elton John thinks he's full of crap!)
Does that make sense? Sorry, I know this probably reads as "devil's advocate" stuff, but since I'm not a non-religious person against gay marriage, I just know they exist, I can't really argue it from that perspective or tell you why they feel that way. I think it probably boils down to either what Gore Vidal has to say about how marriage is crap (though why that changes it from a rights issue I'm not sure; there are plenty of straight people who don't want to get married either because they also feel marriage is crap...) or they are just very traditional people. Like Puck said, even though our country was founded under the belief that the government could not FORCE anyone to follow any particular religion, nor punish them for doing so, a lot of our founders were religious and built our country on their beliefs. So it makes sense that "traditional" in our country would be pretty in line with religious beliefs... so even if somebody doesn't identify as religious, their beliefs could still easily be in line with religious beliefs...
To me I just sort of like to boil things down to "be excellent to each other," but I'm a child of the 80's. =P
First, I know most people believe the only people against SSM are against it for religious reasons... there was a poll years ago that showed that to not be true. I can't find it now but it asked people their views and then asked their religion, and it was really surprising that a lot of people who didn't identify as Christian were still against it. I don't think you would find that true NOW, because the numbers have started to switch with more people pro and fewer people against, so I would guess we are probably getting closer and closer to religion being the dividing line, but I'm not sure because it doesn't look like anybody has repeated that study. Or at least my Google Fu isn't finding it if they have. =P
OTOH there are gays who don't think gays should be allowed to marry. Gore Vidal is probably the most popular and vocal one, he thinks marriage as an institution is already destroyed and doesn't understand why anybody would want to take part in it. (it's strange to read his comments on it.) He's been with his partner for a long time, too, I don't remember for how long but it's been AGES. You would think "of course someone like this would be for gay marriage!" And yet he isn't. Hence why I said it's strange to read his comments on it... also that he seems to be calling it fighting for your right to get divorced... ehhh. Makes me feel uncomfortable in a way I can't describe.
So there ARE arguments that aren't "GOD SAID NO" against gay marriage, some even being made by homosexuals themselves. I honestly don't know what a lot of them are, it doesn't exactly matter to me, so I can't tell you what they are. But I do know they exist.
Now, as to whether any given individual thinks they are "good" arguments or not... well, that's all subjective, isn't it? I'm sure to Gore Vidal, his arguments are good, but probably aren't good to a number of other people (like I'm sure Elton John thinks he's full of crap!)
Does that make sense? Sorry, I know this probably reads as "devil's advocate" stuff, but since I'm not a non-religious person against gay marriage, I just know they exist, I can't really argue it from that perspective or tell you why they feel that way. I think it probably boils down to either what Gore Vidal has to say about how marriage is crap (though why that changes it from a rights issue I'm not sure; there are plenty of straight people who don't want to get married either because they also feel marriage is crap...) or they are just very traditional people. Like Puck said, even though our country was founded under the belief that the government could not FORCE anyone to follow any particular religion, nor punish them for doing so, a lot of our founders were religious and built our country on their beliefs. So it makes sense that "traditional" in our country would be pretty in line with religious beliefs... so even if somebody doesn't identify as religious, their beliefs could still easily be in line with religious beliefs...
To me I just sort of like to boil things down to "be excellent to each other," but I'm a child of the 80's. =P
If marriage is sacred, then why does our (theoretically) secular government have anything to do with it at all?
I don't know, I don't believe in a god(s) so it's never really mattered to me anyway, but I've been thinking lately that the government should recognize ONLY civil unions and nothing but. If marriage is so sacred, then it can be a private arrangement made within religious institutions and kept out of our secular government. You want to be married?
Go to a church, get'r done, then fill out the paperwork for your civil union, and bing bang boom you're married in the eyes of which ever god floats your boat and it's legally recognized.
I don't know, I don't believe in a god(s) so it's never really mattered to me anyway, but I've been thinking lately that the government should recognize ONLY civil unions and nothing but. If marriage is so sacred, then it can be a private arrangement made within religious institutions and kept out of our secular government. You want to be married?
Go to a church, get'r done, then fill out the paperwork for your civil union, and bing bang boom you're married in the eyes of which ever god floats your boat and it's legally recognized.