Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage

puppydog

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#81
Puck. Don't pollute my PM with your drivel. I just delete it without reading it anyway. ;)
 

sparks19

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#82
Why should or shouldn't people have certain things? Because in this country people get to vote. That is one of the hazards I suppose of letting the people vote
 

Puckstop31

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#83
That isn't a reason. That's blind faith. If you say "Oh by the way Taqroy, I think gay marriage is wrong because God says it's a sin and I fully believe him," I'll accept that (you did that already, ftr, I just missed it). Am I going to think less of you? Yeah, I am. Because *I* wouldn't accept condemning a whole group of people on the say so of one being.

And you seem like a smart, logical, well rounded person so I'm sure you have put a lot of thought into your chosen belief system. So have I. And if you've put a lot of thought into why homosexuality is bad then I would expect you to have better reasons than "because that guy said so."
Its NOT blind faith. That is a line that really bother me. I put a LOT of effort and time into this. This might be cliche', but my faith is the evidence of things unseen.

God created us, He made us PERFECT. He made man and woman to be together, He gave man and woman sexual intercourse (in marriage, whose definition is givin in Genesis) for reasons more than just reproduction. Homosexuality is wrong because it is rebellion against God and His perfect creation. Knowing that homosexuality is rebellion against God, how can I support homosexuals getting "married".
 
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#85
I am just standing for what I belive in. Nothing more, nothing less.
why does standing for what you believe in mean denying lawful rights and protections of law given to citizens of this country?

I certainly don't "believe" in gay marriage. I don't really understand it, i'm not gay, but I certainly understand two people loving each other and wanting to spend their lives together.

I also understand wanting the benefits of being married, thru financial reasons, in circumstances of death, disablement, taxes, adopting children, and all the other scenerios where being legally married in this country grants certain protections and rights under our laws. Something that is supposed to be protected by the constitution.

So why is it right to deny these people that right? because God says so? I'm fine if that's what he tells you, but he is not our gov't and his laws govern YOU not this country. And if your God told you to go kill Homos you'd be judged in this life by this govt's laws. you claim God's teachings are the basis of most of our laws. I'd argue they are just the basis of keeping chaos to a minimum. They are found in societies all over the world, and are hardly unique to Christian teachings.
 

Beanie

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#87
but I've been thinking lately that the government should recognize ONLY civil unions and nothing but. If marriage is so sacred, then it can be a private arrangement made within religious institutions and kept out of our secular government.
Yeah... if marriage is supposed to be a religious institution, call the government stuff something else for all of the legalities, and let the church sort out the spiritual side of it.

But some people don't see that as gaining true equality. =/ They want nothing short of "marriage" the way it has been for years for straight people. And I guess I can see where that argument is coming from. So even that's not the right answer for everyone...
 

Fran101

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#88
You are right Fran, we will probably never agree about this. Where you are wrong is the "cherry picking" thing. Or the drivel about "i'm not a racist", etc...

Tell me, where do you think I ignore what the Bible says "because it's convienient"? You might actually have a good thing to point out to me. I ask because I also know I need to be held to account, unbelievers show me things about myself I need to change everyday.
For the sake of the argument, and I do believe it was Spark that said it, all things banned in the old testament don't count to some people
Which is most of these,


So, ok, some people believe that due to Jesus's sacrifice, only those commandments in the new testament count.

(edit: found some text that helps me better explain this whole issue)

Now, I have done quite some research on this issue.. all those years in catholic school did kind of teach me to know my way around a bible lol and Strictly speaking, the New Testament says nothing at all about homosexuality SPECIFICALLY, I'll explain more of that later.
In the FEW times it is mentioned, it would seem that it is said to be bad because it is tagged along with adultery, prostitution and adultery. Not really bad in itself.

At most, there are only three passages in the entire New Testament that refer to what we today would call homosexual activity. None of the four gospels mentions the subject. This means that, so far as we know, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, and we simply have no way of determining what his attitude toward it might have been.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 says that certain types of people “will not inherit the kingdom of God.†The list of such people begins with fornicators, idolaters, and adulterers, and it ends with thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Near the middle—between adulterers and thieves—are the two Greek words translated in the New Revised Standard Version as “male prostitutes†(that is, homosexual male prostitutes) and “sodomites.†But no special emphasis is placed on these people; they are simply listed along with the others.

Ok, so... why the focus on homosexuals? I mean, Corinthians does put them in the same bucket as fornicators, adulterers etc..

and speaking of adulterers, in both old and new testament it would seem the bible is pretty clear about one BIG issue.

Divorce. The Bible is very clear on this one: No divorcing. You can't do it. Because when you marry someone, according to Mark 10:8, you "are no longer two, but one flesh." And, Mark 10:9 reads, "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Mark gets even more hardcore about it a few verses later, in Mark 10:11-12, "And He said to them, 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.'"

ok, so, now committing adultery, wouldn't that NOW put the newly divorced woman in the SAME bucket as the homosexuals?

..why do people cherry pick that homosexuals don't deserve to marry and are a sin.
..but that divorced women can remarry and aren't adulterous?

HOW COME ANYONE WHO HAS SEX WITH SOMEONE THEY AREN'T MARRIED TO GETTING THE SAME KIND OF TREATMENT?
..that isn't the bible IMO or it's teachings. That's personal. It's cherry picking. It's a lot more difficult to say all adultery is wrong because hey, sex is fun.. and not waiting til marriage is normal these days.
then it is to point at gay people and condemn.



The New Testament really does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.

To the extent that it does talk about homosexuality, the New Testament appears to be talking about only certain types of homosexuality, and it speaks on the basis of assumptions about homosexuality that are now regarded as highly dubious. Perhaps, then, we could paraphrase what the New Testament says about homosexuality as follows: If homosexuality is exploitive, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is rooted in idolatry, then it is wrong; if homosexuality represents a denial of one’s own true nature, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is an expression of insatiable lust, then it is wrong. But we could say exactly the same thing about heterosexuality, couldn’t we?

In my eyes, none of these things really say that god things homosexuality in itself is a bad thing.
now, the bible in itself is really about how you read it

and yes, I have read much of it. Not just in school but because I figure if I'm going to be talking about this issue, I should at least read the text and frankly, I think any book is a lesson, regardless of if you don't believe the lessons taught.

Again, I have no qualms with how people PERSONALLY feel about homosexuality.
but in this country, religion and laws are supposed to be separate.

so why are these personal feelings even a part of it? Marriage was around long before the church and is not owned by churches.
 

Taqroy

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#89
To me I just sort of like to boil things down to "be excellent to each other," but I'm a child of the 80's. =P
I didn't want to quote your post and fill up like half a page - but thank you! Super interesting read - I really thought most of the opponents to gay marriage were opposing for religious reasons.
 
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#90
For the sake of the argument, and I do believe it was Spark that said it, all things banned in the old testament don't count to some people
Which is most of these,


So, ok, some people believe that due to Jesus's sacrifice, only those commandments in the new testament count.

(edit: found some text that helps me better explain this whole issue)

Now, I have done quite some research on this issue.. all those years in catholic school did kind of teach me to know my way around a bible lol and Strictly speaking, the New Testament says nothing at all about homosexuality SPECIFICALLY, I'll explain more of that later.
In the FEW times it is mentioned, it would seem that it is said to be bad because it is tagged along with adultery, prostitution and adultery. Not really bad in itself.

At most, there are only three passages in the entire New Testament that refer to what we today would call homosexual activity. None of the four gospels mentions the subject. This means that, so far as we know, Jesus never spoke about homosexuality, and we simply have no way of determining what his attitude toward it might have been.

1 Corinthians 6:9–10 says that certain types of people “will not inherit the kingdom of God.†The list of such people begins with fornicators, idolaters, and adulterers, and it ends with thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and robbers. Near the middle—between adulterers and thieves—are the two Greek words translated in the New Revised Standard Version as “male prostitutes†(that is, homosexual male prostitutes) and “sodomites.†But no special emphasis is placed on these people; they are simply listed along with the others.

Ok, so... why the focus on homosexuals? I mean, Corinthians does put them in the same bucket as fornicators, adulterers etc..

and speaking of adulterers, in both old and new testament it would seem the bible is pretty clear about one BIG issue.

Divorce. The Bible is very clear on this one: No divorcing. You can't do it. Because when you marry someone, according to Mark 10:8, you "are no longer two, but one flesh." And, Mark 10:9 reads, "What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

Mark gets even more hardcore about it a few verses later, in Mark 10:11-12, "And He said to them, 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.'"

ok, so, now committing adultery, wouldn't that NOW put the newly divorced woman in the SAME bucket as the homosexuals?

..why do people cherry pick that homosexuals don't deserve to marry and are a sin.
..but that divorced women can remarry and aren't adulterous?

The New Testament really does not provide any direct guidance for understanding and making judgments about homosexuality in the modern world.

To the extent that it does talk about homosexuality, the New Testament appears to be talking about only certain types of homosexuality, and it speaks on the basis of assumptions about homosexuality that are now regarded as highly dubious. Perhaps, then, we could paraphrase what the New Testament says about homosexuality as follows: If homosexuality is exploitive, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is rooted in idolatry, then it is wrong; if homosexuality represents a denial of one’s own true nature, then it is wrong; if homosexuality is an expression of insatiable lust, then it is wrong. But we could say exactly the same thing about heterosexuality, couldn’t we?
Fran stop, you're appearing much too intelligent to be in this debate. Get back to you catchy slogans and pictures, they're easier to discredit even though the message is the same.
 

Puckstop31

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#91
Yes, what YOU believe in. Why should that affect anyone or anything else?

So you believe that gay marriage is going "against" your god... why does that mean that gay marriage should be illegal?

How is gay marriage hurting anyone?


Well.... I can tell you that the "marriage" between my sister and her parter is creating a lifetime of misery for their son. That kid is a symbol of their rebellion. Who cares that he is almost 5 and can barely speak? They don't even care, he is just the symbol of their rebellion.

AGAIN, if this were JUST about legal rights for two people, little arguement here. But mark my words... WHEN gay marriage is a federal law here. Look for the lawsuits against churches who will not provide the marriage service. There are already a lot of people who want to charge pastors with "hate crimes" for speaking the Word of God from the pulpit.
 

jess2416

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#92
all I can say right now is that Im deeply saddened and disgusted by my "state" and I have no words at the moment..
 

Taqroy

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#93
Its NOT blind faith. That is a line that really bother me. I put a LOT of effort and time into this. This might be cliche', but my faith is the evidence of things unseen.
Can you explain that? The evidence of things unseen part? You can do it via PM if you want, I just don't really understand what you mean by it.

God created us, He made us PERFECT. He made man and woman to be together, He gave man and woman sexual intercourse (in marriage, whose definition is givin in Genesis) for reasons more than just reproduction. Homosexuality is wrong because it is rebellion against God and His perfect creation. Knowing that homosexuality is rebellion against God, how can I support homosexuals getting "married".
Okay, THOSE are reasons. I still don't agree with them, but I respect that you have them.

Well.... I can tell you that the "marriage" between my sister and her parter is creating a lifetime of misery for their son. That kid is a symbol of their rebellion. Who cares that he is almost 5 and can barely speak? They don't even care, he is just the symbol of their rebellion.
This doesn't make gay marriage wrong, this makes your sister a crap parent. I feel sorry for your nephew.
 

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#94
Well.... I can tell you that the "marriage" between my sister and her parter is creating a lifetime of misery for their son. That kid is a symbol of their rebellion. Who cares that he is almost 5 and can barely speak? They don't even care, he is just the symbol of their rebellion.
But that can be said for straight marriages as well. You mean straight people don't put their children into abusive and horrible situations?

Of course there is a bad apple in every bunch- yeah, I'm sure that some people are gay because they want to be rebellious and get attention. That's hardly the majority. Most gay couples just want the same benefits as straight couples, and truly love their partners.

AGAIN, if this were JUST about legal rights for two people, little arguement here. But mark my words... WHEN gay marriage is a federal law here. Look for the lawsuits against churches who will not provide the marriage service. There are already a lot of people who want to charge pastors with "hate crimes" for speaking the Word of God from the pulpit.
Well, I guess restaurants should stop serving hot beverages- people can get burned and sue over it. Or cars should stop being manufactured- think about all of the insurance fraud and lawsuits each year.

There are lawsuits over EVERYTHING. We're a sue happy society. Nothing is going to change that. That isn't a reason to stop gay people from being married.
 

CaliTerp07

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#95
Well.... I can tell you that the "marriage" between my sister and her parter is creating a lifetime of misery for their son. That kid is a symbol of their rebellion. Who cares that he is almost 5 and can barely speak? They don't even care, he is just the symbol of their rebellion.
Which is wrong, and I'm sure anyone would agree that it's wrong to bring a child into a relationship to prove a point. Just like the people on the brink of divorce who have a kid to "save" their relationship. Or the people who have a kid to have an excuse to stay home and not work. Or the ones who have a kid so that they can **** off their parents and not allow grandma/grandpa to see them. All wrong.

Gay marriage =/= bringing a child into a screwed up home. Your sister and her partner aren't being good parents. There are plenty of same sex parents doing a great job, and plenty of horrid moms and dads out there as well.

I am a Christian. I love God, have read the Bible backwards and forwards, and studied gender/marriage/the Bible fairly in depth (I had to teach it to my middle school Bible study girls this year, and really, really solidified my own faith in doing so). I do not, for one instant, think that God is against same sex relationships. Paul and Timothy seem to preach against it in one way or another, but in the same letters they write about women not speaking in church, women not ever teaching men, and women keeping their heads covered at all times. Paul goes so far as to say it's best for people NEVER to get married (that the only reason we should is if we can't "control our lusts").

Even if I was against it...I wouldn't vote against it. That's denying people basic human rights, in my opinion.
 

Fran101

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#96
Well.... I can tell you that the "marriage" between my sister and her parter is creating a lifetime of misery for their son. That kid is a symbol of their rebellion. Who cares that he is almost 5 and can barely speak? They don't even care, he is just the symbol of their rebellion.
So because one child is "miserable" because of one couple's parenting you don't approve of..
all gay parents shouldn't be allowed to have children?

My little cousin has two gay parents who adore her and she is now living a life full of love, care and happiness.
but hey, using that logic, perhaps she was better off in a crowded orphanage in Haiti where she barely had enough to eat.

There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not pretend that all heterosexual couples are AMAZING parents.
 

zoe08

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#97
You want to know why those of us who are Christian cannot support gay marriage or will vote against it?

The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. Ultimately, God will be the judge of them, but if I vote FOR something that God says is wrong, then *I* will be judged by God as going against his word when I knew it was wrong.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,
Approximately 75% of Americans claim to be Christian, America is supposed to be ruled BY the people. If truly 75% of the nation are Christians (not just calling themselves that but actually practicing) and those people believe the Bible and the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, then government is not being ruled by the Bible, but by the people like it is supposed to be and it just so happens that the majority of those people believe in the Bible.

Christianity is coming to a point where I believe too many "Christians" are worried about what society thinks instead of what God thinks.

I do think the institution of marriage has been ruined. I believe that marriage is for life, and the divorce rate has already ruined what marriage is supposed to be. I think that what these people do should not be called "marriage". I didn't marry my husband because I wanted tax benefits. I married my husband because I want to commit my life to being his wife. Not until it gets hard, but through the good and the bad.


Not supporting gay marriage does not mean we HATE gay people. Everyone of us struggles with sin in some way. I know people who are alcoholics and that's a sin, but that doesn't mean I hate the PERSON. I don't support that they are an alcoholic, but I still love the person.
 

MandyPug

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#98
Puck, I'm genuinely curious.

What if Hannah grew up and identified as homosexual? This goes against your beliefs. Would you not want her to have all the rights she deserves like any other person no matter their orientation? Would you try and "straighten her out" like a lot of religious folks do when a family member identifies as anything but hetero? This is a valid question and it's a difficult one for ALL parents no matter their beliefs.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You do not want your rights taken away, don't do it to others. Marriage between two consenting adults is NOT HURTING ANYONE. Canada has not imploded, nor has Argentina, Belgium, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, and Sweden. All countries who have legalized same sex marriage nationwide.
 

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#99
So because one child is "miserable" because of one couple's parenting you don't approve of..
all gay parents shouldn't be allowed to have children?

My little cousin has two gay parents who adore her and she is now living a life full of love, care and happiness.
but hey, using that logic, perhaps she was better off in a crowded orphanage in Haiti where she barely had enough to eat.

There are bad apples in every bunch.
Let's not pretend that all heterosexual couples are AMAZING parents.
Our neighbors are gay and have two little girls they adopted. They do EVERYTHING for their children... I always see them toting their kids to various lessons/activities, they go to private school, they have a backyard full of fun things, go out of town on vacation all of the time, etc, etc. Any little girl would be lucky to have a family like that!
 

Fran101

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You want to know why those of us who are Christian cannot support gay marriage or will vote against it?

The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. Ultimately, God will be the judge of them, but if I vote FOR something that God says is wrong, then *I* will be judged by God as going against his word when I knew it was wrong.

Approximately 75% of Americans claim to be Christian, America is supposed to be ruled BY the people. If truly 75% of the nation are Christians (not just calling themselves that but actually practicing) and those people believe the Bible and the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, then government is not being ruled by the Bible, but by the people like it is supposed to be and it just so happens that the majority of those people believe in the Bible.

Christianity is coming to a point where I believe too many "Christians" are worried about what society thinks instead of what God thinks.

I do think the institution of marriage has been ruined. I believe that marriage is for life, and the divorce rate has already ruined what marriage is supposed to be. I think that what these people do should not be called "marriage". I didn't marry my husband because I wanted tax benefits. I married my husband because I want to commit my life to being his wife. Not until it gets hard, but through the good and the bad.


Not supporting gay marriage does not mean we HATE gay people. Everyone of us struggles with sin in some way. I know people who are alcoholics and that's a sin, but that doesn't mean I hate the PERSON. I don't support that they are an alcoholic, but I still love the person.
.. but then god also said divorce is wrong and that all adultery is wrong. JUST AS WRONG as homosexuality.

so why are christians not out voting against people being able to divorce, or re-marry after divorce? or voting against teaching safe sex/sex-ed practices to people that choose to have sex before marriage?
Won't god judge you just as harshly for letting that happen?

I guess I just wonder why such a harsh focus on homosexuality?
If all of it's wrong shouldn't you feel just as strongly about all of it?
 

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