maybe our resident constitutional scholar can chime in on why the will of the people is not how this country is governed. I think a nice change of pace would be to return to the days when Christians were persecuted. Maybe remind them of what it's like not be able to live the life they choose. Remind them of what it's like to have to sneak, hide and face real tragic consequences for just trying to be who they are. Remind them what it feels like to not have the protection in numbers they seem to enjoy right now. I nice refresher course of what it's like to be the minority would be a nice change of pace. Maybe even a remedial course on the origins of marriage
Obama Supports Same-Sex Marriage
- Thread starter ~Tucker&Me~
- Start date
This is a little simplistic, but basically, yes. The Old Testament (covenant) did have a different set of rules. It required a different set of criteria for forgiveness of sin.
Jesus's death and resurrection was the perfect payment for ALL of mans sin. ALL of it, forever. Remember this as I go on....
How "specific" does it need to be?
Romans 1:24-25
"24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."
Mankinds 'logic' is one of those created things. I am not asking you to just blindly listen to God Fran. Just take note of what He tells us.
Romans 1:26-27
"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
The entire Bible is the inspired Word of God. Its ALL His Fran. You cannot pick the Bible apart, I know. It either IS ALL true, or NONE of it is.
Jesus is God incarnate. The Bible is Gods Word spoken to us. That is how we know His 'attitude'.
Indeed. Sin is sin and no one kind of sin is less than another. This thread is about homosexual marriage though. (Don't give up yet, i'm getting there. LOL)
Excellent point Fran. You are correct. Why DO people tolerate one kind of sin and condemn others? All I can offer is because it's a line not yet crossed. Yes, thats a poor answer, but its all I got. We have crossed so many other lines, to our own peril, why go even farther?
Its comes back to Jesus and His sacrifice. I am not perfect, but I will do everything I can to live the way He asks us too. It is for our own good afterall. Be careful about applying mans reason to Gods Law.
Jesus's death and resurrection was the perfect payment for ALL of mans sin. ALL of it, forever. Remember this as I go on....
How "specific" does it need to be?
Romans 1:24-25
"24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."
Mankinds 'logic' is one of those created things. I am not asking you to just blindly listen to God Fran. Just take note of what He tells us.
Romans 1:26-27
"26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."
The entire Bible is the inspired Word of God. Its ALL His Fran. You cannot pick the Bible apart, I know. It either IS ALL true, or NONE of it is.
Jesus is God incarnate. The Bible is Gods Word spoken to us. That is how we know His 'attitude'.
Indeed. Sin is sin and no one kind of sin is less than another. This thread is about homosexual marriage though. (Don't give up yet, i'm getting there. LOL)
Excellent point Fran. You are correct. Why DO people tolerate one kind of sin and condemn others? All I can offer is because it's a line not yet crossed. Yes, thats a poor answer, but its all I got. We have crossed so many other lines, to our own peril, why go even farther?
Its comes back to Jesus and His sacrifice. I am not perfect, but I will do everything I can to live the way He asks us too. It is for our own good afterall. Be careful about applying mans reason to Gods Law.
You are saying that we are ONLY focusing on gay-marriage because we are in a conversation ABOUT gay-marriage. I DO NOT AGREE WITH DIVORCE. I do not think it is OK for people to divorce and remarry 4 times! I do not think it is OK to have sex before marriage. I believe people sin and make mistakes, we are human, but we are to repent, to ask for forgiveness. Not to be ok with doing it and repeating it over and over.
Yes religion influences values, and I can see where that becomes blurry on some issues. Gay marriage is not one of them. It seems all anyone can bring is "god said so." If your only real reason is "god said so," I think it is totally wrong to force what you acknowledge is just your religion on other people.
And I totally agree with Fran about divorce and adultery. Either try to turn the USA into the Christian version of Saudi Arabia or recognize that YOUR PERSONAL religion and all of its nuances should not govern the country.
And I totally agree with Fran about divorce and adultery. Either try to turn the USA into the Christian version of Saudi Arabia or recognize that YOUR PERSONAL religion and all of its nuances should not govern the country.
I was asked for an example. I gave one.
What do you people want from me? LOL I'm not going to agree with you.
The ONLY reason they chose to have that child is to flip the world off. "We are gay, hear us roar." The human reason for that kid being here is because they rebelled.
He is a nice kid and my hearts weeps for him. I know something good will come from it, but he was dealt a crappy hand. God has a way of making good on that though.
What do you people want from me? LOL I'm not going to agree with you.
The ONLY reason they chose to have that child is to flip the world off. "We are gay, hear us roar." The human reason for that kid being here is because they rebelled.
He is a nice kid and my hearts weeps for him. I know something good will come from it, but he was dealt a crappy hand. God has a way of making good on that though.
But like I said, that can happen in ANY marriage. Plenty of straight people have kids for all the wrong reasons as well.
Heck, it is generally easier for straight people to have kids. Most gay couples need to go through adoption or sperm donations. It takes a lot more effort to even have a kid for gay people.
Heck, it is generally easier for straight people to have kids. Most gay couples need to go through adoption or sperm donations. It takes a lot more effort to even have a kid for gay people.
The sacredness of marriage. I love when people bring up this argument.
It is really only recently it has become incredibly common to marry for love. Marriages were usually arranged by the family of the couple. They still do that in India. In fact, in North India the arranged marriage of child brides is common (illegal, but common). Marriage sure is sacred when in two clicks you can order a bride over the Internet. You heterosexuals have sure kept it pure.
I'm sure it wasn't too long ago people argued that interracial marriage was somehow "against God". But these days it's pretty much mostly acceptable.
If a church doesn't want to recognize gay marriage, fine. But there shouldn't be a reason that two people can't fill out legal documents for a marriage license at the justice of the peace just because they happen to have the same set of genitalia. I am a homosexual, and I believe in God. I no longer attend a church, as I no longer identify as Catholic and have no interest in visiting any of the non-denominational Churches in the area, but I believe. I believe that God would not have brought a certain person into my life (I have had much time to think about it, and everything just seemed so, orchestrated) if he thought my love for her was somehow sinful, especially since I wound up basically saving her life. I haven't stopped loving her, in fact I would go to the ends of the Earth for her if I needed to. And this devotion is wrong? Evil? Sinful? You may believe what you like, and I shall believe the opposite, but I know what I have seen and experienced with my own eyes.
It is really only recently it has become incredibly common to marry for love. Marriages were usually arranged by the family of the couple. They still do that in India. In fact, in North India the arranged marriage of child brides is common (illegal, but common). Marriage sure is sacred when in two clicks you can order a bride over the Internet. You heterosexuals have sure kept it pure.
I'm sure it wasn't too long ago people argued that interracial marriage was somehow "against God". But these days it's pretty much mostly acceptable.If a church doesn't want to recognize gay marriage, fine. But there shouldn't be a reason that two people can't fill out legal documents for a marriage license at the justice of the peace just because they happen to have the same set of genitalia. I am a homosexual, and I believe in God. I no longer attend a church, as I no longer identify as Catholic and have no interest in visiting any of the non-denominational Churches in the area, but I believe. I believe that God would not have brought a certain person into my life (I have had much time to think about it, and everything just seemed so, orchestrated) if he thought my love for her was somehow sinful, especially since I wound up basically saving her life. I haven't stopped loving her, in fact I would go to the ends of the Earth for her if I needed to. And this devotion is wrong? Evil? Sinful? You may believe what you like, and I shall believe the opposite, but I know what I have seen and experienced with my own eyes.
I didn't tell you your anecdote was in invalid- I just said that could happen to any STRAIGHT couple as well.
ANYONE can be a bad parent. Straight or gay, black or white, fat or thin, it doesn't matter. Just because your sister is a terrible parent doesn't mean that all gay people are incapable of raising children or just doing it to further their agenda.
Fran shared an example and I shared one as well. I've never met a "bad" gay parent, but I can name off plenty of straight ones. Obviously there are good and bad gay parents in the world, but it is the same with ANY parent.
ANYONE can be a bad parent. Straight or gay, black or white, fat or thin, it doesn't matter. Just because your sister is a terrible parent doesn't mean that all gay people are incapable of raising children or just doing it to further their agenda.
Fran shared an example and I shared one as well. I've never met a "bad" gay parent, but I can name off plenty of straight ones. Obviously there are good and bad gay parents in the world, but it is the same with ANY parent.
You are just a ray of sunshine aren't you? LOL
For the 3,000th time..... IF this was just about the civil rights or two gay people, little arguement from this guy.
You really don't know a thing about me pal. I don't know a lot about you. But you clearly care enough about me to post this drivel. Funny thing is, if we sat across a table from each other we would agree more than we disagree.
And don't worry, it won't be long until Christians are more openly persecuted.
For the 3,000th time..... IF this was just about the civil rights or two gay people, little arguement from this guy.
You really don't know a thing about me pal. I don't know a lot about you. But you clearly care enough about me to post this drivel. Funny thing is, if we sat across a table from each other we would agree more than we disagree.
And don't worry, it won't be long until Christians are more openly persecuted.
Fair enough. I suppose we agree to disagree.
I mean, you chose your beliefs and follow them best you can and I guess that's the best any of us can hope from ourselves in the end.
I've learned a lot through this thread from opinions beside mine and I think it's an important part of debate, even debate you feel passionate about, to listen to the other side.
I think it was my mom who told me once, you aren't going to change the world if you don't understand it.
I will always believe in equal rights
and as they say, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar . And if anything this thread has taught me that with curiosity, open mindedness and honesty comes much more progress then yelling and condemning.
I do believe in fighting for what I feel is right but I think fighting to protect the things I love standing behind me is MUCH MORE NOBLE then fighting because I hate what is standing in front of me.
and I think thats what mostly everyone in this thread is doing.
and with that, I'm done with fighting in this thread, It's been done so many times on this board and I feel I've said what I had to say and leave you all with..
PANDAS!
I mean, you chose your beliefs and follow them best you can and I guess that's the best any of us can hope from ourselves in the end.
I've learned a lot through this thread from opinions beside mine and I think it's an important part of debate, even debate you feel passionate about, to listen to the other side.
I think it was my mom who told me once, you aren't going to change the world if you don't understand it.
I will always believe in equal rights
and as they say, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar . And if anything this thread has taught me that with curiosity, open mindedness and honesty comes much more progress then yelling and condemning.
I do believe in fighting for what I feel is right but I think fighting to protect the things I love standing behind me is MUCH MORE NOBLE then fighting because I hate what is standing in front of me.
and I think thats what mostly everyone in this thread is doing.
and with that, I'm done with fighting in this thread, It's been done so many times on this board and I feel I've said what I had to say and leave you all with..
PANDAS!
On June 12, 1967 Chief Justice Earl Warren wrote:
"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essiential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men... Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry or not to marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and canNOT be infringed by the state."
There is NO reason why it shouldn't be the same with gender. All these people want to argue about the sanctity of marriage, when you have people that are married 5 times by the time they are 30, really? Who is really destroying marriage? its obviously not the LGBT people.
"The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essiential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men... Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry or not to marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and canNOT be infringed by the state."
There is NO reason why it shouldn't be the same with gender. All these people want to argue about the sanctity of marriage, when you have people that are married 5 times by the time they are 30, really? Who is really destroying marriage? its obviously not the LGBT people.
Fair enough. I suppose we agree to disagree.
I mean, you chose your beliefs and follow them best you can and I guess that's the best any of us can hope from ourselves in the end.
I've learned a lot through this thread from opinions beside mine and I think it's an important part of debate, even debate you feel passionate about, to listen to the other side.
I think it was my mom who told me once, you aren't going to change the world if you don't understand it.
I will always believe in equal rights
and as they say, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar . And if anything this thread has taught me that with curiosity, open mindedness and honesty comes much more progress then yelling and condemning.
I do believe in fighting for what I feel is right but I think fighting to protect the things I love standing behind me is MUCH MORE NOBLE then fighting because I hate what is standing in front of me.
and I think thats what mostly everyone in this thread is doing.
and with that, I'm done with fighting in this thread, It's been done so many times on this board and I feel I've said what I had to say and leave you all with..
PANDAS!
I mean, you chose your beliefs and follow them best you can and I guess that's the best any of us can hope from ourselves in the end.
I've learned a lot through this thread from opinions beside mine and I think it's an important part of debate, even debate you feel passionate about, to listen to the other side.
I think it was my mom who told me once, you aren't going to change the world if you don't understand it.
I will always believe in equal rights
and as they say, you'll catch more flies with honey than vinegar . And if anything this thread has taught me that with curiosity, open mindedness and honesty comes much more progress then yelling and condemning.
I do believe in fighting for what I feel is right but I think fighting to protect the things I love standing behind me is MUCH MORE NOBLE then fighting because I hate what is standing in front of me.
and I think thats what mostly everyone in this thread is doing.
and with that, I'm done with fighting in this thread, It's been done so many times on this board and I feel I've said what I had to say and leave you all with..
PANDAS!
I too think we had a better discussion than normal for this topic. LOLbut it is what it's about. Being married in a church, a court house, a backyard by a priest, a judge, an ordained commissioner, a designated state clerk all give you the exact same legal obligations, protections by our gov't in this country.
people want to hold onto Marriage because their god tells them to, and that's fine, but it's not a set of rights and obligations that are unique to your God. in fact in this country and most others, those rights and obligations only pertain to the laws of the land. The religious connections are enjoyed only by those that partake in those activities and are unique only to those secluar groups.
There are many religions and religious people in this country that place different values on their religious marriage and that's all fine. We are able to do that in this country because our laws protect that right. ALL of those religions and religious marriages are given the same legal protections and obligations as the other regardless of their relgious affiliation.
people want to hold onto Marriage because their god tells them to, and that's fine, but it's not a set of rights and obligations that are unique to your God. in fact in this country and most others, those rights and obligations only pertain to the laws of the land. The religious connections are enjoyed only by those that partake in those activities and are unique only to those secluar groups.
There are many religions and religious people in this country that place different values on their religious marriage and that's all fine. We are able to do that in this country because our laws protect that right. ALL of those religions and religious marriages are given the same legal protections and obligations as the other regardless of their relgious affiliation.
